185 replies to this topic

[Ironhand]

In the "apology" thread in the General Discussions forum, Orkin suggested starting a thread on Conan's sense of honor, his ethics, his "rough chivalry", etc., and what it's limitations might be. And I believe he suggested drawing directly upon REH's writings and descriptions, as who knew better than REH what Conan's honor, and its limits, were.

So here's me, starting off the discussion. In "Vale of Lost Women" Conan tries to coerce a female captive of a Ku$nite chieftain, to all intents and purposes a slave, into having sex with him, even though she loathes him, by offering to free her and kill her brother's murderer. A straight business arrangement, but one in which Conan is in total control and she is essentially helpless. We're not talking about impulsive gratitude here, but a straight quid pro quo. To be fair, she makes the initial offer and he laughs at her, saying that her captor, the Ku$nite chief, would give her to Conan for the asking. Then, after making her feel like $nit, he makes the offer.

At the end of the story, after fulfilling his part of the bargain by betraying and murdering the chief, he releases her from her end of the deal, saying that he has never forced a woman.

Feel free to jump in here; I have no ax to grind, just want to hear some opinions. Cite some other stories if you want to.

[alex]

Conan's motives in some situations are those of the flawed hero, which is the best type imo. I'll start it off from Pool Of The Black One and A Witch Shall Be Born. In both cases he usurps the captains he's serving under. In the former it was for profit, in the latter revenge.

But in his own defense, natural born frontman that he was, both the nomadic warrior and cuthroat pirate realize he is the stronger and thus better man. In the Hyborian age, the weak didn't last long.

But what does that tell you about his morals.

Clark Kent, he ain't!

[cimmerianbloke]

Well, isn't Conan some kind of a loner, who doesn't plead allegiance to no one. I think that by nature he is a loner and that is what makes him such a leader. his charisma is due to his physique and combat skills, not because of its capacities to socialize, and I imagine that being reflected in his behaviour. His sense of honor is very pragmatic, and he has no shame running away when the battle is lost, actually the only way to save his skin. Howard didn't fall into the trap set by the romantics of the 19th, which as good as their intentions were, lead to the rise of nationalism all over Europe with the desastrous consequences we all know. Conan is a one-off in that sense, cause Howard never made him a straight hero, and when he rescues the girl in Vale or rescues the colons in Beyond the Black River, it is as well due to his hatred of picts and blacks than to make Conan a politically correct character. This has been much debated on some threads, and that is why Conan has such a wide appeal. He is primarily after wealth and fulfilling his vices, and even though he turned down some nice offers to rule (A Witch Shall be born), later in life he takes the power, not as a puppet of the Aquilonian resistance, but as a leader of a coup. Howard's approach of his characters, natural bad arses (I mean they didn't get an awful youth or saw their family killed) is to make them instinctive fighting machines because their environment wouldn't allow them to survive otherwise. In that, he captured the barbaric human spirit as nobody else before him nor since. I can understand his frustration at the world in his time, he who was writing of breaking skulls and spilling entrails over a spilled beer, at times of economic depression and social servitude. In that line of thought, I think that no Conan pastiche writer ever understood that Howard left the social context of his realm aside on purpose, to emphasize the precarity of life in that realm and focus on the rage, the willpower to survive, and even if he was a great geopolitician, his scenario of an alliance to throw Conan over the Aquilonian throne sounds a bit too modern to me. In fact, all the non Howard tales usually have a far too complex plot, a political and social background in which I don't recognize Hyboria. I haven't read Conan of Venarium, but from what I've read here, it looks just to be the same. Too complex a political plot to be Hyborianly sustainable. I made a remark on another thread about how I humbly think the pastiche writers should organize their work. Analize every Howard tale and throw the plot on paper, you'll realize they all are incredibly simple, and are embedded to sound a bit more complex, limited in the number of characters and in time. So are the characters and Conan. We never had form Howard a clue about his mother's name, his first sh*g, or details that make a character familiar. Conan just walked through all his stories as a bad tempered, take-no-piss merciless warrior. It is all about survival and has not much to do with chivalry, something that was unknown to him in his early years. Long live the sullen eyed ass-kicker Cimmerian...

[Chrysagon]

the trap set by the romantics of the 19th, which as good as their intentions were, lead to the rise of nationalism all over Europe with the desastrous consequences we all know

could you explain?
Chrysagon

[Orkin]

In the "apology" thread in the General Discussions forum, Orkin suggested starting a thread on Conan's sense of honor, his ethics, his "rough chivalry", etc., and what it's limitations might be.  And I believe he suggested drawing directly upon REH's writings and descriptions, as who knew better than REH what Conan's honor, and its limits, were.

Mitra, look what I've started...

[Orkin]

In Slithering Shadow/Xuthal of the Dusk, Conan remarks "...In my country no starving man is denied food...."

In the same tale, we see Conan ready to slay the girl to spare her from a lingering death.

[Chrysagon]

Hi all,
I just reread THe tower of the elephant :
1 - the Kothian Conan kills put is hand on his sword first (and he insulted Conan badly)
2 - Conan feels pity and sadness when he saw how the creature was tortured by Yara
3 - When Conan comes with the jewel to Yara, Howard says he speaks like a judge saying a sentence (sorry don't have the english version right here).
And he finally steals nothing in the tower.
Chrysagon

[TroceroQuijas]

This is what I think based on what Ive read.
In the Hyborian Age honor and ethics are few and far between.
When it comes to Conan, I think he's simply human, prone to love, hate, fear, jealosy, ect (you get my point), and all the actions invoved in them. There were times when he would slay mercilessly, as a pirate, theif, mercenary or outlaw of some sort, just to gain riches, just to kill and be in the thrill of battle, with his own head on the line, loving it, with no ones life in consideration and honor is non existent. But then hes also prone to laugh, love, and even have mercy on others, even to lead them.
Now saying theres a Cimmerian way of honor, maybe between themselves within tribes, but I dont think they care much for others.

[cimmerianbloke]

Chrysagon, when I state the rise of the nationalism in Europe in the 19th Century, I am referring to the rise of the patriotic calls and its manly values all over the Continent, but more specifically in Germany and France. I should mention, without any need to fine-tune, the role that the respective churches had in most countries, and that lead Europe on the verge of the disaster in the 1940s. Howard never used its characters as heroes fighting for their country, but rather fighting the invaders on their ancestors' land.
To stick to my subject, I think Howard put it right about Conan's philosophy and creeds when he exposed his way of life to B?lit en route to the Zarkheba river.

[Chrysagon]

Hi all.
I am affraid I do not agree with you on the reasons that lead to WWII (especially the role of churches ?)but that is another question. To help the reflexion I reread "God in the bowl" and there Conan refuses to give the name of the person who hired him to steal in the Temple because he gave his word. Of course when that same person give no help to prove him innocent he cuts his head off as a punishment.
For now it sticks with the statements I made in the "Apology" thread.
Chrysagon

[nathraq]

Yes, I agree that the role of churches had very little to do with the rise of nationalsim, especially in Germany where the Church was forbidden during the late 30's/early 40's. That's another subject.

But back to the subject at hand: Remember in the Frost Giants Daughter, Conan is chasing a beauty across the snow, telling here she will never escape him. Hmmm..... for what reason is he chasing her?? Leave it to your imagination.

[cimmerianbloke]

Well, in order not to slip onto a sensitive ground, i'll close the subject on the rise of nationalism by telling that everybody interested in history should get books from varied sources. To stick to the thread, I just want to underline that Howard's writings were in complete osmose with his personal stance: he didn't want to be a slave worker and was a fierce individualist, and that clearly reflected in his character's behaviour, those ethics were few and very flexible. The day Conan goes law-abiding, I'll read Barbara Cartland...

[Chrysagon]

Hi all.
Sometimes books said wrong things and if you want to attach the idea of natinalism to the 19th century i am ok, but with WWII ? Maybe we should open another thread somewhere to talk about this interesting period. But back to Conan. that is something I totally agree with you : Conan doesn't care about laws. That's normal, Hyboryan laws are edicted by the rich ones and lords who didn't put their people freedom or well being in first place. So individualism is a way to survive, and the paralell with the 30's is very interesting.
Chrysagon

[Gorulga]

In some stories you get the feel that Conan wouldn't harm a woman for ex but in another story you think he might. He is dangerous and unpredictable beacuse he is often swayed by his emotions to do the opposite of his supposed code of honor. In "the vale of lost women" he says "I have never forced a woman" but in "The frost giant's daughter" you are left with the impression that he would have forced her despite the fact she was clearly unwilling.

Later in Conan's life after he has become king he seems to care more about people, the very people he has preyed upon before. The story of Conan seems to be full of paradoxes. He is like the grey wolf, so hated, feared and admired among men. Yet he is only following his nature, wild and untamed, as primal as the elements. Fire burns sinner and saint alike. Howard often described conan's eyes as burning like the eyes of a wolf. The eyes they say, are the mirror of the soul.

[Orkin]

Hi all,
        I just reread THe tower of the elephant :
1 - the Kothian Conan kills put is hand on his sword first (and he insulted Conan badly)
2 - Conan feels pity and sadness when he saw how the creature was tortured by Yara
3 - When Conan comes with the jewel to Yara, Howard says he speaks like a judge saying a sentence (sorry don't have the english version right here).
And he finally steals nothing in the tower.
Chrysagon

"He who sent this gem bade me say, 'Yag-Kosha gives a last gift and last enchantment.""

I thought there was a line showing Conan's hesitancy in slaying Yag, who had done him no harm. I am looking at the new Ballatine, perhaps this was changed in the Lancers, etc?

[Matt Spencer]

One thing to bare in mind about Conan's character, and his contradictions, is that he changes throughout his life, as people tend to do. This is most pronounced in the "King Conan" stories, but it's subtly present throughout the series.

Very true about how his emotions can sway him. The fact that neither FG'sD nor VoLW were accepted for publication in Howard's lifetime puts them in a bit more perspective. Howard once said something to the effect of, "If I was completely honest about how they behaved in ancient times, etc., it would be too much for most readers." So in the stories published in Weird Tales, we see Conan killing plenty of enemies, but no indication that he might commit rape, or be otherwise sordid as seen in VoLW, etc. So if you ever wondered what Howard meant by "the reality people couldn't handle," look no further.

After re-reading Queen of the Black Coast last night, it struck me how everything in the first chapter, 'til our lovers meet, sets up Belit as the villain of the piece. If she'd been anyone else, but done the same deeds, Conan would have sent her straight to hell. Then they meet, and he's pretty much thinking with his d**k (not that I blame him, mind you; DAMN, that girl's a hottie!). Without a thought, he joins right up with the same folks who've just slaughtered his companions of many months, when just a few pages ago, he was in a fix because he refused to betray a friend. Even Conan and Belit are together, she gives no indication other than her devotion to him (which is genuine and yes, quite affecting), that she's anything other than a greedy tyrant. That bit where she draws Conan away, but lets the rest of her men keep at that tomb, knowing they're about to be toast, is just COLD! I do NOT see Conan standing for such behavior from someone who didn't have him so under her spell. When you think about it, Belit had a rather Lady Macbeth-esque effect on Conan, didn't she?

[Chrysagon]

Hi all,
in Rogues in the House, Conan feels he owes something to Murilo who gave him food and indirectly helped him to escape from jail. But a few pages later he kills without warning the new lover of the girl who betrayed him and made him go to jail. We don't even know if the guy was involved in it. I suppose he is or Conan wouldn't kill him.
Chrysagon

[alex]

I find the "A pact was made to be broken" line in Vale to be quite unlike REH - & perhaps one reason it wasn't found and subsequently published until the late sixties. He probably wasn't too particular over that yarn.

Can't recall at the moment if it was a rejected manuscript like FGD or simply an untested work. anyone remember?

[Kane]

Gettting slightly offf topic here.
I've been thinking about the level of honor shown by another of the characters in the Conan stories.
Belit is an interesting character. She decides to accept a man into her crew. One that has just killed a number of people that she has known.
Was she accepting a mighty warrior into her crew, or finding a protecter against possible munity?
Later she has no problem with lying to Conan in order to protect him from a possible trap. The same trap that she is willing to send her crew into.
Just how much do her men mean to her?
After finding the treasure of the city, she becomes completely centered on ruby necklace. To the point that she does not care that Conan is going into possible danger.
Seems to me that the only redeeming factor about this woman is her love for Conan. So much so that she returns from the dead to help save him.
However, given that she has no problem throwing away the lives of those who help her, would she have kept Conan if a better choice came along?

[Freebooter]

Hey Y'all,
As far as Conan chasing the Frost Giant's Daughter: She was a goddess and the daughter of the god Ymir if I am not mistaken. I felt that not only had she laughed at, teased, and mocked Conan she had also put some sort of spell on him that only a goddess can do to try to lead him to his death, so her bros could ambushe and murder him and serve his still steaming heart onto their father's platter. I wish Conan had've caught the wench!

As for Conan and Belit and that lost city and her supposedly leading her men into a trap or not caring about her men in that it was a trap and her caring only for the ruby necklace: If I am not mistaken they had never been there so there fore did not know what to expect. They did not know of the evil that dwelt there and had no idea it was any sort of trap. She left her men to guard things, that is what subordinate warriors and soldiers do, they stand guard or do whatever when and where they are told. They were killed when they were led on and/or driven mad by the evil powers and beings there. As for Belit caring only for the necklace, I had the distinct feeling when I read that story that it, or the evil powers there and in the necklace, had put some sort of bewitching spell on her.
Just my take on a couple of things mentioned.
Take care,
Freebooter