OK,i said that i wasn't going to reveal any about the book til some other people read it,but i just had to also point out things that i felt was all wrong in the book.LIKE everybody else,the women were protrayed as being very weak and not at all what howard would have offered,and i also agree with the magic /seer crap as well.COnan hates sorcery yet,here they have used magic to try and cure his mother,to sum it up,the village was a lot like the village in braveheart,not a rough and tumble mountain village we have visoned for so long.Now,i don't know if anybody else picked up on this or not,but turtledove even has the same view as did spraguey about howard and used that in his version of "CONAN".
page 164,about have way down the page....
He (meaning conan) felt uncomfortable mentioning tarla to his mother.she understood what he was talking abouteven when he did not talk about it."that is one little hussy. i don't know why you worry about her".She isn't good enough for you "
Then he goes on...His mother did not think anyone was good enough for him.
LATER ON DOWN THE PARAGRAPH ....she says..
"but don't mind me" after i'm dead and gone,you and your father will settle things to your own liking,i'm sure.
just a thought ,and to tell you the truth,i was a little let down overall with the book,and liked jmr's version of cimmeria alot better in conan the valorous. NUFF SAID..
DARK CROM AKA EDDIE
Conan Of Venarium (Turtledove) Reviews
Started by Emirikol, May 04 2003 09:38 PM
183 replies to this topic
#41
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Posted 21 July 2003 - 04:31 AM
THAT WHICH DOES NOT KILL YOU,ONLY MAKES YOU STRONGER!
--- NIETZSCHE
--- NIETZSCHE
#42
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Posted 21 July 2003 - 02:57 PM
From the blurb:
"Every Cimmerian longs to drive the intruders out with fire and sword, but they must stay their hands, for the Aquilonians have promised savage reprisals. "
That sure doesn't sound like any Cimmerians I ever heard of.
"Every Cimmerian longs to drive the intruders out with fire and sword, but they must stay their hands, for the Aquilonians have promised savage reprisals. "
That sure doesn't sound like any Cimmerians I ever heard of.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
#43
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Posted 21 July 2003 - 05:21 PM
I'm not sure what a "rough and tumble mountain village" looks like. Are the huts built out of rocks that keep tumbling down the hills?OK,... the village was a lot like the village in braveheart,not a rough and tumble mountain village we have visoned for so long.
DARK CROM AKA EDDIE
I see croft structures, built of rocks and some kind of thatch, certainly round houses. Maybe built on a terraced slope like in Bhutan, but even Cimmeria would have some flat land, no?
? ?When I can not stand alone, it will be time to die,? he mumbled, through mashed lips. ?But I?d like a flagon of wine.?
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#44
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Posted 21 July 2003 - 10:35 PM
Strange as it sounds, for me, the best image I have of a cimmerian village comes from the film CTB.
I've always imagined their life as semi-nomadic, covering the same territory in a yearly cycle. Heading into warmer areas during the winter and moving into the mountains and valleys during the spring and summer to graze the flocks of goats and sheep.
REH has stated that they had no or little agriculture, so part of the wandering is done to allow the natural crops time to replenish themselves.
Because of this nomadic lifestyle all of the buildings are constructed of materials that can be broken down and transported, possesions need to be light and easily replaced. Clothing is by and large leather, fur and skins.
If there are any long term buildings these are most likely a combination of wood and stone used for the storage of grain and other long term foodstuffs. In addition a few may be used as hunting shacks by clan members during the winter as locations to store frozen meat and places to stay during protracted far ranging hunts. These would be few and well hidden, as they make excellent targets for other clans, Picts, Aesirs and Vanirs.
In Conan's clan they would have at least one wagon or drawn sled to transport his grandfather's or father's anvil and metal working tools.
Just my veiws on what a Cimmerian village should be like. Agree or disagree at your pleasure.
I've always imagined their life as semi-nomadic, covering the same territory in a yearly cycle. Heading into warmer areas during the winter and moving into the mountains and valleys during the spring and summer to graze the flocks of goats and sheep.
REH has stated that they had no or little agriculture, so part of the wandering is done to allow the natural crops time to replenish themselves.
Because of this nomadic lifestyle all of the buildings are constructed of materials that can be broken down and transported, possesions need to be light and easily replaced. Clothing is by and large leather, fur and skins.
If there are any long term buildings these are most likely a combination of wood and stone used for the storage of grain and other long term foodstuffs. In addition a few may be used as hunting shacks by clan members during the winter as locations to store frozen meat and places to stay during protracted far ranging hunts. These would be few and well hidden, as they make excellent targets for other clans, Picts, Aesirs and Vanirs.
In Conan's clan they would have at least one wagon or drawn sled to transport his grandfather's or father's anvil and metal working tools.
Just my veiws on what a Cimmerian village should be like. Agree or disagree at your pleasure.
"I vanquished Law once, I'll conquer yet again--
And force upon Mankind the Freedom he fears--
And dead gods I will again defy?"
And force upon Mankind the Freedom he fears--
And dead gods I will again defy?"
#45
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Posted 22 July 2003 - 05:54 AM
I imagined a semi-migratory lifestyle, in which the migrations are vertical rather than horizontal. A semi-permanent village perched between a mountain and a valley. Herdsmen drive their goats up the mountain during the summer, and graze them in the valley during fall and spring (plenty of time for the grass to recover in between). The herds winter in the village, probably in the same houses as where the herdsmen live, subsisting off of stored grain and dried grass, and protected from bitterly cold weather. This is modeled after yak-herders in Tibet and Nepal. The village provides a center for their lives, a defensive bastion, and a location for crafts,like ironworking, that require a large capital investment in heavy, difficult-to-transport equipment.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
#46
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Posted 11 August 2003 - 03:18 AM
I have read the new Turtledove book CONAN OF VENARIUM. It takes place when Conan is 12-14. I recommend it to every Conan fan.
It follows a Turtledove formula of telling a tale from the grunts of each side. The Aquilonia invaders and Cimmerian barbarians. Yes, the story is veiled as Romans encroching on Gaul or LAST OF THE MOHICANS etc...but what would have happened if such barbaric tribes (as the Celts in Gaul) would have rose TOGETHER ultimately to rebuff a superior imperialistic foe.
Conan's father, Mordec, is a looming figure and brooding blacksmith. Interesting characters and heck, Turtledove knows his Conan.
I wonder if Turtldove is really ONE PERSON as his output is ASTONISHING...
It follows a Turtledove formula of telling a tale from the grunts of each side. The Aquilonia invaders and Cimmerian barbarians. Yes, the story is veiled as Romans encroching on Gaul or LAST OF THE MOHICANS etc...but what would have happened if such barbaric tribes (as the Celts in Gaul) would have rose TOGETHER ultimately to rebuff a superior imperialistic foe.
Conan's father, Mordec, is a looming figure and brooding blacksmith. Interesting characters and heck, Turtledove knows his Conan.
I wonder if Turtldove is really ONE PERSON as his output is ASTONISHING...
For all the works of cultured man
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard, "A Word
from the Outer Dark"
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard, "A Word
from the Outer Dark"
#47
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Posted 11 August 2003 - 12:34 PM
I have read the new Turtledove book CONAN OF VENARIUM. It takes place when Conan is 12-14. I recommend it to every Conan fan.
It follows a Turtledove formula of telling a tale from the grunts of each side. The Aquilonia invaders and Cimmerian barbarians. Yes, the story is veiled as Romans encroching on Gaul or LAST OF THE MOHICANS etc...but what would have happened if such barbaric tribes (as the Celts in Gaul) would have rose TOGETHER ultimately to rebuff a superior imperialistic foe.
Conan's father, Mordec, is a looming figure and brooding blacksmith. Interesting characters and heck, Turtledove knows his Conan.
I wonder if Turtldove is really ONE PERSON as his output is ASTONISHING...
It follows a Turtledove formula of telling a tale from the grunts of each side. The Aquilonia invaders and Cimmerian barbarians. Yes, the story is veiled as Romans encroching on Gaul or LAST OF THE MOHICANS etc...but what would have happened if such barbaric tribes (as the Celts in Gaul) would have rose TOGETHER ultimately to rebuff a superior imperialistic foe.
Conan's father, Mordec, is a looming figure and brooding blacksmith. Interesting characters and heck, Turtledove knows his Conan.
I wonder if Turtldove is really ONE PERSON as his output is ASTONISHING...
For all the works of cultured man
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard, "A Word
from the Outer Dark"
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard, "A Word
from the Outer Dark"
#48
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Posted 20 August 2003 - 01:29 AM
Right now I'm working my way through HT's "American Empire" series, and his "Darkness" series. I swear, it takes the first 100 pages of one of his books just to cycle you through the cast of characters, and then he spends the next 100 pages cycling you through again as he advances the action. So tell me, in Conan of Venarium, does he spend much time on Conan?
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
#49
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Posted 22 August 2003 - 11:57 AM
He spends as much time on Conan as he does the other characters.So tell me, in Conan of Venarium, does he spend much time on Conan?
For me, the problem is not that he does not center the novel on Conan as much as he does not seem to have done the proper amount of time reseraching both Conan and Cimmeria.
the errors he makes in these areas could have been solved by taking a couple of days and reading through REH's orginal work. Even the edited material would still give a accurat image of Conan and his homeland.
"I vanquished Law once, I'll conquer yet again--
And force upon Mankind the Freedom he fears--
And dead gods I will again defy?"
And force upon Mankind the Freedom he fears--
And dead gods I will again defy?"
#50
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Posted 09 September 2003 - 02:06 PM
Are we supposed to believe that Conan had some nerdy, weakspirited crush on the weaver's daughter? No way. His mighty physique and confident manner would have all the girls tripping over their feet to stand in his shadow. He would have crushed them in his hotblooded, furious embrace one after the other. Occationally smashing the jaw of a rival.
#51
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Posted 09 September 2003 - 03:58 PM
At age 12?Are we supposed to believe that Conan had some nerdy, weakspirited crush on the weaver's daughter? No way. His mighty physique and confident manner would have all the girls tripping over their feet to stand in his shadow. He would have crushed them in his hotblooded, furious embrace one after the other. Occationally smashing the jaw of a rival.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard
Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
http://www.scrollsof...d.us/index.html or at
http://www.delicious...ic=ConanProject
#52
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Posted 09 September 2003 - 09:52 PM
These tribalpeople grow up fast, not like the pampered city-bred weaklings of this age. I haven't read the book but I'm sure he does some pretty nasty stuff for a twelve year old. On the cover it sure looks like the testosterone is flowing all right.
#53
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Posted 10 September 2003 - 05:34 PM
Has anyone seen the review by Garret Romaine (former editor, the Hyborian Review) on the Barnes and Noble site? 
I haven't read the book, but it sounds like another pastiche like other pastiches...
I haven't read the book, but it sounds like another pastiche like other pastiches...
? ?When I can not stand alone, it will be time to die,? he mumbled, through mashed lips. ?But I?d like a flagon of wine.?
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#54
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Posted 10 September 2003 - 06:23 PM
I've read the reveiw and have to agree with his opinion of the book.Has anyone seen the review by Garret Romaine (former editor, the Hyborian Review) on the Barnes and Noble site?
I haven't read the book, but it sounds like another pastiche like other pastiches...
Here was a chance to present an intresting and dynamic veiw of young Conan's life and we ended up with an attempt at a "warm and fuzzy" war story thinly veiled as a Conan novel.
Again, it just shows how a little reserach and understanding of the title character seems to lacking in the more recent pastiches.
"I vanquished Law once, I'll conquer yet again--
And force upon Mankind the Freedom he fears--
And dead gods I will again defy?"
And force upon Mankind the Freedom he fears--
And dead gods I will again defy?"
#55
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Posted 11 September 2003 - 05:31 PM
The image of Cimmerians weaving and herding sheep seems so out of place that I am forced to conclude that Howard was thinking of Cimmerians as lacking these skills, or of much agricultural skills either. Ethnologically, it doesn't make sense, but this is fantasy.
? ?When I can not stand alone, it will be time to die,? he mumbled, through mashed lips. ?But I?d like a flagon of wine.?
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#56
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Posted 11 September 2003 - 07:07 PM
I'm going to fess up now, because I never finished the damn thing.
I was vastly impressed with some of the battle scenes and Conan jr's altercation during his first kill (according to Turtledove)-- but sheesh I made it 3/4 of the way through and it's simply fluffy light creampuff writing as far I'm concerned. HT's other works I enjoy, this very insane interpretation of Conan and Cimmerians in general I did not.
Was planning on finishing Conan Of Venarium, but I found a dog eared copy of Rafael Sabatini's Fortunes Of Captain Blood --and I just couldn't put zee thing down..!
I was vastly impressed with some of the battle scenes and Conan jr's altercation during his first kill (according to Turtledove)-- but sheesh I made it 3/4 of the way through and it's simply fluffy light creampuff writing as far I'm concerned. HT's other works I enjoy, this very insane interpretation of Conan and Cimmerians in general I did not.
Was planning on finishing Conan Of Venarium, but I found a dog eared copy of Rafael Sabatini's Fortunes Of Captain Blood --and I just couldn't put zee thing down..!
What do I know of cultured ways, the gilt, the craft and the lie?
I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.
The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king.
- "The Road of Kings"
I, who was born in a naked land and bred in the open sky.
The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king.
- "The Road of Kings"
#57
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Posted 12 September 2003 - 10:30 AM
One of the editor's rewievs tells us that there isn't hadly any monsters in the book. To me that is a good thing. I'm fed up with silly monsters. Some prehistoric beasts would be nice (no dinosaurs).
If cimmerians didn't herd sheep or weave clothes, perhaps they hunted some large prehistoric animals and got meat and pelts from them. Perhaps mammoths migrate into cimmeria in the winter. Moose ther has to be plenty of but they are also hunted by the wolwes. Herds of muskox could survive in cimmeria. The wolwes cannot touch them and hunting them or mammoths could be very dangerous.
If cimmerians didn't herd sheep or weave clothes, perhaps they hunted some large prehistoric animals and got meat and pelts from them. Perhaps mammoths migrate into cimmeria in the winter. Moose ther has to be plenty of but they are also hunted by the wolwes. Herds of muskox could survive in cimmeria. The wolwes cannot touch them and hunting them or mammoths could be very dangerous.
#58
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Posted 15 September 2003 - 11:18 PM
Why in God's name must Turtledove hack off another Conan novel? He's good when he has a "new idea" (the original Agent of Byzantium or Guns of the South) but screws it up when he overworks it (Misplaced Legion - even though I enjoyed it, all the other Videssos books- yawn, How Few Remain, American Empire - puke!)
Just why do we need another young Conan novel? Surely a Conan mythos novel which expands the worlds would offer more to the fans. Or is it just the thinly veiled screenplay for anothe Conan film (I know - I'm a cynic).
Just why do we need another young Conan novel? Surely a Conan mythos novel which expands the worlds would offer more to the fans. Or is it just the thinly veiled screenplay for anothe Conan film (I know - I'm a cynic).
#59
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Posted 16 September 2003 - 12:18 AM
I suppose the thought of Cimmerians as Shepards never occurred to me. I guess that isn't very barbaric.
Eh, Conan was a kid here. I gave it a pass.
The basics of the tale were pretty good. The story was dang good in general.
Eh, Conan was a kid here. I gave it a pass.
The basics of the tale were pretty good. The story was dang good in general.
For all the works of cultured man
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard, "A Word
from the Outer Dark"
Must fare and fade and fall.
I am the Dark Barbarian
That towers over all.
-Robert E. Howard, "A Word
from the Outer Dark"
#60
finmaccool
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Posted 06 October 2003 - 10:55 PM
I read it last month and here is my take on it.
First of all, for a Harry Turtledove fan, I was very dissapointed. I really was expecting better from the guy.
Also, Turtledove's version of Cimmerians is just freakin' WRONG!
For example when the Cimmerians finally get around to raiding Fort Venarium, they do so with pitchforks, axes and such. Crom allmighty, these are Cimmerians born with sword in hand, almost, and yet there are only two cimmerians in the whole book who get a hand on a sword-Conan steals the Aquilonian fops slim rapier style blade (yuck!) and one nameless Cimmerian wields a huge claymore till a Gunderman or Bossonian or Aquilonian wipes him out!
Huh?
These are supposed to be the ancestors of the rough and rowdy Gaels, not the Pansy Arsed Frisian peasants in Saxony! Crom allmighty!
And don't even get me started on Teenage Conan stumbling over his own feet and being shy and bashful around the Cimmerian Prom queen...
Ugh...
If you want to read a good take on Robert Howard's Cimmerians let me recommend John Maddox Robert's Conan novel where Conan heads back to Cimmeria and his rough countrymen make fun of him for giving in to civilized weaknesses!
Now thats a good book! Roberts patterned his Cimmerians on various Highlands scots and celtic clans....
I really would like to see somebody kick Turtledove in the seat of the pants for this travesty of Bararian justice....Conan's father, being a smith, should have made a sword for himself, if not the boy...instead, he does his fighting with an axe.....
First of all, for a Harry Turtledove fan, I was very dissapointed. I really was expecting better from the guy.
Also, Turtledove's version of Cimmerians is just freakin' WRONG!
For example when the Cimmerians finally get around to raiding Fort Venarium, they do so with pitchforks, axes and such. Crom allmighty, these are Cimmerians born with sword in hand, almost, and yet there are only two cimmerians in the whole book who get a hand on a sword-Conan steals the Aquilonian fops slim rapier style blade (yuck!) and one nameless Cimmerian wields a huge claymore till a Gunderman or Bossonian or Aquilonian wipes him out!
Huh?
These are supposed to be the ancestors of the rough and rowdy Gaels, not the Pansy Arsed Frisian peasants in Saxony! Crom allmighty!
And don't even get me started on Teenage Conan stumbling over his own feet and being shy and bashful around the Cimmerian Prom queen...
Ugh...
If you want to read a good take on Robert Howard's Cimmerians let me recommend John Maddox Robert's Conan novel where Conan heads back to Cimmeria and his rough countrymen make fun of him for giving in to civilized weaknesses!
Now thats a good book! Roberts patterned his Cimmerians on various Highlands scots and celtic clans....
I really would like to see somebody kick Turtledove in the seat of the pants for this travesty of Bararian justice....Conan's father, being a smith, should have made a sword for himself, if not the boy...instead, he does his fighting with an axe.....
