95 replies to this topic

[Rusty Burke]

> I haven't been especially shown how stories were RUINED by LSDC. But I sincerely doubt he helped much either.

I take it you haven't read my "De Camp vs. Howard: Rewriting Conan", in The Fantastic Worlds of Robert E Howard. I showed therein how (a) de Camp's extensive changes to "The Frost-Giant's Daughter" were pointless and totally unnecessary, and more importantly, (b) that de Camp's changes to "The Black Stranger" actually harmed the story. I went into some detail about how the changes harmed the story.

Way back years ago in REHupa I detailed a bunch of de Campian changes to various stories, probably still have the notes around somewhere, but it would be a waste of time to bother with it now. Those that want REH with a minimum of changes -- and all those documented -- can pick up the Del Reys. Those that prefer LSdC's rewrites can probably pick up the Lancer/Ace pbs pretty cheap.

Rusty

[mugginsmajik]

Godzilladude, it must be the way I was reading it, but your first post seemed like you were defending De Camp, whereas your second one is obviously not so much the case.

Rust Burke, It?s a shame you never released your study of the edits, because it would be an interesting read.

Here is somebody who is definitely defending De Camp, but even he says most of the editing was unnecessary:
http://www.rehupa.co...meo_lancers.htm

[Rusty Burke]

Here is somebody who is definitely defending De Camp, but even he says most of the editing was unnecessary:

Gary is a great guy and a good friend, but he tends to look at de Camp's work with REH through the rosy lens of his teenaged encounters with the Lancer paperbacks. Like many of the fans of my era, I started out a fan of de Camp, too -- I even proposed him as an honorary member of REHupa, which he then became for many years -- but the more I learned the more disgusted I got with his editing and biographizing of REH. In person and in correspondence he was a charming guy, one of the great conversationalists, and very accomodating to and respectful of fans. As a writer on his own, he did some good stuff (I'm not as big a fan of his writing as some, but I recognize it as a matter of taste, not of his ability). It's just a shame he succumbed to the temptation to try making money off of Conan, and let things snowball from there.

Rusty

[timeless]

DeCamp helped popularize Bob Howard's famous character, grant him that. And I like that he adapted the El Borak "Flame Knife' to be a Conan tale...I think that works fabulously.

But most of his other rewrites...

Let me just say I'm glad I finally got my hands on the Del Reys.

DeCamp's stories worked well in the context of Marvel comic adaptations. That's all he really is, a good comic book adapter with regard to Conan.

I hate that, for the love of Hollywood cash, he revised a Conan chronology to admit the possiblility that Conan spent his youth pushing a grain mill wheel in slavery. Yeeesh.

And his late Conan tales, those silly Thoth-Amon battles and Conan Meets the Mayans...

Just horrible.

Edited by timeless, 29 July 2007 - 10:58 PM.

[godzilladude]

Godzilladude, it must be the way I was reading it, but your first post seemed like you were defending De Camp, whereas your second one is obviously not so much the case.

Rust Burke, It?s a shame you never released your study of the edits, because it would be an interesting read.

Here is somebody who is definitely defending De Camp, but even he says most of the editing was unnecessary:
http://www.rehupa.co...meo_lancers.htm

I think a lot of folks over the years have reacted in knee-jerk fashion to ill-founded accusations (No! Really?) Everyone wants a simple answer, good or evil. LSDC was certainly arrogant when it came to REH, really saw himself as superior. At the time he started with Conan, it was not a big property, was just a character by some pulp writer, like hundreds of others. And even when it became clear that REH was going to turn out to be much more important in terms of literature than LSDC, he just could not accept that, as he'd really felt this was just a schleeb pulp writer, by definition doesn't matter, how can ANYONE really think this guy is important? So he spent a lot of time early on trying to build REH up, then spent a lot of time in the later years trying to tear him down. And what seemed reasonable business conduct to him at the beginning seems unreasonable to us now. But let's at least use facts (like Rusty's work) to judge him, not a bunch of over-the-top name-calling.

You have to remember as well, a lot of the animosity towards LSDC had to do with his relationship with Glenn Lord, another person he looked down upon. Glenn is everybody's grandpa in Howard studies, a great guy, hard worker, much beloved, and did so much for REH. LSDC tended to talk down to him behind his back, but still where it could be seen. And whereas Glenn understood how to get along with fans, LSDC tended to want to talk down to fans, like we were too stupid to figure anything out for ourselves. And then he'd be wrong, and look like an idiot, and not take that well.

LSDC made some money off of REH, as did Glenn, the Kuykendalls, their daughter, none of these folks in any way related to REH or his family. LSDC tried to take over, failed, ended up with half of a few characters, then after he died his kids sold out, end of story. He's out of the picture, has been for years, and is now just a historical moment in REH studies. Oh, folks with time to waste will argue about whether he helped or hurt REH (or both), but it doesn't matter now, so who cares.

So just accept that a lot of the older fans remember the wars with LSDC, and that anger and hatred (Howard fans, full of hatred? No!) still simmers for some of them, and will for a very long time.

I like to tell the story that at one time, for a couple years, LSDC and I only lived about a mile apart in Plano, TX. And halfway in between us was a cross street, "Cross Plains", I kid you not. I thought that quite on point, allegorically, as we definitely took two different directions from that same starting point.

Gary is the paladin for LSDC in the REH sphere, and hence makes himself a target for all kinds of slanders, slurs, and challenges to his intellect. He just loves it, and jumps into the middle of any argument you want. Its good to have a hobby you enjoy.

[mugginsmajik]

Maybe it doesn't matter anymore Godzilladude, but it's still an interesting part of Conan history. We are certainly lucky to have a choice in which versions we read today, but the Lancer paperbacks still are often sold on Ebay, some of them are still in print (though released by a different company). Some people who are less informed will probably still be introduced to Howard's writing through De Camp, so I think this is still a valid topic.
It's interesting though, I didn't realise that De Camp had lived in Texas, just like Howard did.

[godzilladude]

Maybe it doesn't matter anymore Godzilladude, but it's still an interesting part of Conan history. We are certainly lucky to have a choice in which versions we read today, but the Lancer paperbacks still are often sold on Ebay, some of them are still in print (though released by a different company). Some people who are less informed will probably still be introduced to Howard's writing through De Camp, so I think this is still a valid topic.
It's interesting though, I didn't realise that De Camp had lived in Texas, just like Howard did.

True, with about a billion Lancer/Ace Conan books in print, it may be a while before they are out of circulation. So the need for folks to be aware of earlier editing efforts will continue. But then that applies to most all earlier editions, regardless of who edited them.

LSDC was originally from, what, New York? He lived most of his life up that way. When he and his wife came down to interview folks to write his REH bio back in the 1970s, they had a great time making fun of Texas, and the way its folks talked, their openness and friendliness, etc. It was all childish and amusing to them. Then when they got older and retired, taadaa, he moved here. Guess he got tired of shoveling the snow, or something. Maybe his kids were down here. I'm sure someone knowledgeable about LSDC can tell us the correct story.

[Rusty Burke]

LSDC was originally from, what, New York? He lived most of his life up that way. When he and his wife came down to interview folks to write his REH bio back in the 1970s, they had a great time making fun of Texas, and the way its folks talked, their openness and friendliness, etc. It was all childish and amusing to them. Then when they got older and retired, taadaa, he moved here. Guess he got tired of shoveling the snow, or something. Maybe his kids were down here. I'm sure someone knowledgeable about LSDC can tell us the correct story.

Sprague was originally from New York, spent summers on the family's place in the Adirondacks and the rest of the time in the city. As a kid he was sent to one of those quasi-military boarding schools in the Carolinas (South, I think, but would have to check on that). Went to the Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, and graduate work at Cal Tech. During WWII he was stationed in Philadelphia (with Heinlein and Asimov), and as far as I know remained in the area, mostly Villanova, until moving to Texas in the 90s. And yes, one of his sons lived there (and may yet live there, for all I know).

Rusty

[mugginsmajik]

Thanks for the replies.

[Sermon Bath]

this is a bit off the subject but I've read lots of people running down Sprague's writing pal Lin Carter......other than the Conan books and some Thongor comics I had read one Carter book....Black Star......

I thought it was a pretty good read but had to much Tolkein in it for my taste...anyhow, based on that one book I had looked on Carter as being pretty good, not great....and to fixated on Tolkein.......However, I am reading another novel right now called Tower on the Edge of Time and it is a freakin BLAST so far......I had a smile on my face all day after reading the first fifty pages.....if the rest is as good as that part I think Carter is a superb writer based on just this one book....I like it a Lot and recommend it to any Howard and or Burroughs fans out there......For me the thing is all about the characters ....do you want to find out more about them, do you like them, etc........Thane, the lead guy is basically Conan with healthy dashes of Cormac Fitzgeoffrey and Flash Gordon thrown in.....hes very cool!!! He also reminded me a bit of Wagner's Kane (maybe cause hes got red hair?) but hes got a ton more personality than the deadpanning Kane

check it out!!!!!!

Edited by xssurdinynexes, 10 August 2007 - 07:05 PM.

[Casca]

This thread is absolutely wonderful! Thanks so much to Axerules for turning me unto it. So many diverse opinions, and very well thought out. I can really see why so many are so passionate about this subject. I must say that as for myself I was certainly subject to my youthful enthusiasm for absolutely ANY Conan tale. So in my slightly less unsophisticated tastes I took the stories as all good, some just better than others.

As far as my thoughts on LSDC. I must go with the limited personal experience I have in regards to the man. Which is virtually nil. As I remember reading the tales in my youth. I enjoyed them ALL. Even the LSDC volumes, heavy handed editing, rewrites or not. Things get more complex as one ages though and I think pretty much all of the opinions here are well stated, each with their own set of merits and personal taste.

On another note, I must say that my incomplete collection of Conan tales and Howard stories in general is sadly incomplete. And it is becoming painfully obvious from my reading on this forum that it is even worse than I previously thought. I simply must get my hands on the Del Rey editions! Crom grant me the funding... er, bah, I'll do it myself.

Off topic (again) but in regards to Kane. I must say that IMO, Kane didn't necessarily lack personality but due to an extremely jaded nature was about as blas? as one could get. I mean a millennia spanning lifetime man, sheesh. The man was extremely tired of life but still had such a strong will that the only thing for him to do was plod on continuing to play in the game of life in shear defiance of the malevolent god that cursed him. How many times does Wagner write about or allude to long periods of Kane's life in which he essentially lives the ascetic life of the hermit, possibly even for centuries. Kane was a surly brute, very guarded. The never explain, never complain type. But there are occasions in which Kane's heart shines through, such as with his lover in Bloodstone. A truly tragic romance. I am certainly not much of a literary critic. And lastly, I understand Kane or Wagner's work in general needs not to be defended on this board.

Please excuse my digressions.

[Marcin]

Great thread indeed! Thanks for sharing the knowledge guys.

I didn't regard de Camp's Conans very high, but I've read his non-Conan book, about "Yankee in Rome". It was a kind of ancient Rome variation on Mark Twain's "Yankee at King Arthur's Court". Seems like ol' Lyon wasn't playing only with Bob Howard's toys, eh? But I must admit I enjoyed LSDC's attempt at "time-traveling-Yankee" theme when I read it as a teenager.

[Conan_scott]

Great source of info! i was looking for info on lsdc and the ace books, got that and a whole lot mo.

[Axerules]

Welcome to the forum Scott.

This thread is absolutely wonderful! Thanks so much to Axerules for turning me unto it.

You're welcome, Casca.
I do agree with you, this is a great thread.


My two cents:

Those that want REH with a minimum of changes -- and all those documented -- can pick up the Del Reys. Those that prefer LSdC's rewrites can probably pick up the Lancer/Ace pbs pretty cheap.

Maybe it doesn't matter anymore Godzilladude, but it's still an interesting part of Conan history. We are certainly lucky to have a choice in which versions we read today, but the Lancer paperbacks still are often sold on Ebay, some of them are still in print (though released by a different company). Some people who are less informed will probably still be introduced to Howard's writing through De Camp, so I think this is still a valid topic.

True, with about a billion Lancer/Ace Conan books in print, it may be a while before they are out of circulation. So the need for folks to be aware of earlier editing efforts will continue. But then that applies to most all earlier editions, regardless of who edited them.

With all due respect for your dedication and work, Paul and Rusty, IMHO your posts are a little bit too English-centered.

In how many langages are the Lancer/Aces translated ?
And the Del Reys ?

Some answers are not true for non-English readers. I know, they don't come to this forum, perhaps you didn't think about them. The fact is that the Del Rey editions are, as far as I know, not translated (hopefully, it won't last forever !) in other langages.

LSDC/LC's edits/changes are still misleading people about REH's character in several langages.

Now, not "in history".

My brother IS a Conan and REH-fan and if he has a basic understanding of English he is not enough skilled to read my Del Reys.
He can only read Le Tr?sor de Tranicos, an Ace/Lancer translation.

The first Conan Del Rey book will be released in French by Bragelonne (Patrice Louinet did the translation ) on october 18th. As soon as the Bragelonne book will be on schedule, he will be happy to have access to expurgated texts. Sadly, they're no plans for the translation of Kull today. And for those who read neither English nor French, it's even worse.

How many people around the world have not "the choice" ? LSDC/LC's stuff WILL last for a long time in a lot of places...

[godzilladude]

With all due respect for your dedication and work, Paul and Rusty, IMHO your posts are a little bit too English-centered.

In how many langages are the Lancer/Aces translated ?
And the Del Reys ?

Some answers are not true for non-English readers. I know, they don't come to this forum, perhaps you didn't think about them. The fact is that the Del Rey editions are, as far as I know, not translated (hopefully, it won't last forever !) in other langages.

LSDC/LC's edits/changes are still misleading people about REH's character in several langages.

Now, not "in history".

My brother IS a Conan and REH-fan and if he has a basic understanding of English he is not enough skilled to read my Del Reys.
He can only read Le Tr?sor de Tranicos, an Ace/Lancer translation.

The first Conan Del Rey book will be released in French by Bragelonne (Patrice Louinet did the translation ) on october 18th. As soon as the Bragelonne book will be on schedule, he will be happy to have access to expurgated texts. Sadly, they're no plans for the translation of Kull today. And for those who read neither English nor French, it's even worse.

How many people around the world have not "the choice" ? LSDC/LC's stuff WILL last for a long time in a lot of places...

Au contraire, mon ami. Indeed, Paradox is punching out the Del Rey books into other languages as fast as they can get the deals cut. I have heard at least passing reference to French, German, Spanish editions, with plans for at least seven more.

You are correct, the Lancer/Ace series has been used as either source material or reprinted straight up a oodles of languages, including (that I am aware of) Bulgarian, Croatian, Czech, Dutch, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Greek, Hungarian, Italian, Japanese, Lithuanian, Norwegian, Polish, Portuguese, Romanian, Russian, Spanish, Swedish, Turkish and Yugoslavian. Many of these were bootlegs, many were redone books, sometimes thinner, sometimes thicker, sometimes contents reshuffled. MAYBE some of these used Grant texts, but that would be surprising, given how readily at hand the Lancer/Ace series was. Now that the DR books are floating out there, in relatively cheap editions, and given the quickness and accuracy of scanning nowadays, I would not be the least bit surprised to start seeing bootleg Conan books again in numerous languages, this time based on the DR books.

I don't know that I'd expect LSDC editing to have much of an effect compared to the massive editing a translator will be required to undertake. I suppose where LSDC just made up stories, or completed stories, those would be bad, but for the original complete REH tales, I don't know that a lot of the fine detail will come through. LSDC's edits on those was pretty minimal.

So, things will progress, if not as fast as you or I would prefer.

I have a friend who is Chinese and enjoys REH, but he's never gotten any Chinese copies, hard to imagine that none have been created. I may have to see if I can get someone to track down some copies for me.

I'd be really surprised if the other DR books like Kull don't make it into French. It seems a ready and sensible market, basic structure for deals are already in place, etc. We'll see.

[Axerules]

Good news Paul. I didn't know that there were plans for German and Spanish translations.

I know there's a deal for the 3 Conan's in French
There's still no date for the release of the second and third book, and it could be very long for the other DR's.

P. Louinet posted this on a French website in June, replying to a question about the translation of the other DR books:

Patience...
Les pr?sages sont bons, mais tout d?pendra du succ?s de ces livres...

Roughly translated: "Patience...
Omens are good, but everything depends of the success of this books..."
I already planed to buy several copies of Coming to offer them to my brother and friends.

So, things will progress, if not as fast as you or I would prefer.

Exactly.
It could take years.

It seems SO slow on this side of the atlantic...


EDIT: Patrice posted a few minutes ago that the release would be the 10-31.

Edited by Axerules, 24 September 2007 - 08:57 PM.

[Guzman]

Good news Paul. I didn't know that there were plans for German and Spanish translations.

As a matter of fact, the Spanish translation is already published, both in luxury (yes, the 3 volumes) and cheap editions. You can check it in this shop: Cyberdark

Translation of first volume was rejected by many fans, because it was simply a "fix" from the existing Lancers/Ace translation (and some mistakes remained). If I?m not wrong, the other 2 volumes have a fully new translation.

Pardon my english

[Rusty Burke]

I don't know that I'd expect LSDC editing to have much of an effect compared to the massive editing a translator will be required to undertake.

Boy, I'll say. Patrice emailed me a question about something Conan says in one story, he and two translators had somewhat different ideas about what was meant, and I ended up saying it was a little bit of all three. (Probably why he didn't ask me any more questions.) Translating is a dicey business. (Example: he said one translator initially turned "Nameless Old Ones" into "unknown ancestors.")

Rusty

[Patrice Louinet]

I don't know that I'd expect LSDC editing to have much of an effect compared to the massive editing a translator will be required to undertake.

Boy, I'll say. Patrice emailed me a question about something Conan says in one story, he and two translators had somewhat different ideas about what was meant, and I ended up saying it was a little bit of all three. (Probably why he didn't ask me any more questions.) Translating is a dicey business. (Example: he said one translator initially turned "Nameless Old Ones" into "unknown ancestors.")

Rusty

It's impossible to detect the strain of royal, err, I mean de Campian edits on those stories that initially appeared in Weird Tales. On those that did not and were more or less butchered, it's a different story.
But as Paul and Rusty say, the impact of the translator is of course extremely important. I had to redo all the translations by one person who was/is an excellent translator but who a) had no knowledge of pulp fiction (hence the "Nameless Old Ones" as ancestors), and thought the stories were too long and ended up cutting them by roughly 20%. One thing is sure, I will never translate any other author. I happen to have a rather good understanding of what Two-Gun-Bob was trying to say, I know his "voice", so my job is really, really simple compared to working on a writer with who you have no affinities or you have never read!

Patrice, (who will see that giant Rusty in Hell!)

[nomadic]

Welcome to the forum Scott.

This thread is absolutely wonderful! Thanks so much to Axerules for turning me unto it.

You're welcome, Casca.
I do agree with you, this is a great thread.


My two cents:

Those that want REH with a minimum of changes -- and all those documented -- can pick up the Del Reys. Those that prefer LSdC's rewrites can probably pick up the Lancer/Ace pbs pretty cheap.

Maybe it doesn't matter anymore Godzilladude, but it's still an interesting part of Conan history. We are certainly lucky to have a choice in which versions we read today, but the Lancer paperbacks still are often sold on Ebay, some of them are still in print (though released by a different company). Some people who are less informed will probably still be introduced to Howard's writing through De Camp, so I think this is still a valid topic.

True, with about a billion Lancer/Ace Conan books in print, it may be a while before they are out of circulation. So the need for folks to be aware of earlier editing efforts will continue. But then that applies to most all earlier editions, regardless of who edited them.

With all due respect for your dedication and work, Paul and Rusty, IMHO your posts are a little bit too English-centered.

In how many langages are the Lancer/Aces translated ?
And the Del Reys ?

Some answers are not true for non-English readers. I know, they don't come to this forum, perhaps you didn't think about them. The fact is that the Del Rey editions are, as far as I know, not translated (hopefully, it won't last forever !) in other langages.

LSDC/LC's edits/changes are still misleading people about REH's character in several langages.

Now, not "in history".

My brother IS a Conan and REH-fan and if he has a basic understanding of English he is not enough skilled to read my Del Reys.
He can only read Le Tr?sor de Tranicos, an Ace/Lancer translation.

The first Conan Del Rey book will be released in French by Bragelonne (Patrice Louinet did the translation ) on october 18th. As soon as the Bragelonne book will be on schedule, he will be happy to have access to expurgated texts. Sadly, they're no plans for the translation of Kull today. And for those who read neither English nor French, it's even worse.

How many people around the world have not "the choice" ? LSDC/LC's stuff WILL last for a long time in a lot of places...

I beg to differ but the DelRey editions are alive and well in Spain, England, Germany (I have the entire German set of Conan and they have all the color plates intact as well as all the B&W one) and France and are said to be in Italy and Greece as well and with the interior art and all the current editing in place. They are even available in Japan.
I know this because I just returned from Europe after 8 years living there. The Spanish editions are particularly gorgeous.
So, the world has a better choice. The French editons of the volumes put out by Lancer/Ace are still in print or only recently lapsed. It's odd to see them because the Frazetta covers are printed with the images flipped. Conan's clearly a lefty on those covers.
Anyway, sales on the Del Rey volumes are brisk. In Germany they've had three printings on the first volume alone and changed the format enlarging the book and included all the color plates in the center of the book as I mentioned above. The only down side is that the cover art is provided by Charles Keegan. I'm not sure why. Keegan's work looks pretty good (though one is pretty weak) but I miss the original artists' work on those covers.


Rick