189 replies to this topic

[PainBrush]

Its also really cool to see how much some of you guys know about this kind of thing.

if not for how easy it is nowadays for Tor to look stuff up on internet - Tor probably still by this age be rubbing sticks together & make fire so the computer-box makes magic !!!

[Kortoso]

Looks like a wolfdog is not technically a hybrid (here I go again being a geek again) since the wolf and the dog are the same species. Didn't know that. Apparently a 1/2-1/2 cross is too wild, and most wolfdogs are more dilute than that.

interesting stuff in that link , I always read that wolves were Canis Lupus & dogs were Canis Canis , more recently the canis familiaris or canis domesticus & I've read a little about the genetics - there are definite d.n.a. differences that would probably cause people/scientists of differing opinions to argue if they're actually 2 distinct seperate species ( I have no doubts myself) .

Here, Tor, look, magic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog

Not to say that Wikipedia is the apex of knowledge. I thought they were separate species, same as coyote (C. latrans) and the Red Wolf (C. rufus). I assume that they have been recently re-ordered thanks to modern genetics study.

Something more about the early dog: http://en.wikipedia....he_domestic_dog

[PainBrush]

" After being corrected , Tor growled through clenched teeth at the wizard " You are indeed very clever , I like you , you'll die last !!! " hahaha

[PainBrush]

This is kind of interesting though , from your last link ;DOG ORIGINS

The assessment that the wolf is the progenitor of the dog is a working hypothesis that currently is supported by several lines of independent evidence behaviour, morphology and genetics.

I wouldn't accept just the Smithsonian Institutes claims , but Society of Mammologists is a pretty good authority . I wonder how different in morphology , behavior & genetics an animal has to diverge from it's ancestor before it is finally designated as a seperate 'species ' ? It seems to be an arbitrary thing at best - just as they have yet to find that common missing link between us & the first walking apes - they still haven't pin-pointed the exact missing link between wolves & dogs , except to say they 'seem to' have been first domesticated apart somewhere in Asia . They don't however say 'human beings' are a subspecies of apes !!?? I know for a fact , from first-hand 'actual experience' with living wolves , rather than just their bones - would at least cause a major pause in that theory with scientists if not a radical re-thinking ! They're more different from dogs , than dogs from cats .

These include: a reduction in overall size (may be related to dietary restrictions due to captivity); changes in coat colouration and markings; a shorter jaw initially with crowding of the teeth and, later, with the shrinking in size of the teeth; a reduction in brain size and intelligence and thus in cranial capacity (particularly those areas relating to alertness and sensory processing, necessary in the wild); and the development of a pronounced ?stop?, or vertical drop in front of the forehead.

To add just a few things to all of that from my actual 'real-life experience' that a 'laboratory' scientist would 'never' learn , the 'vertical drop' in the fore-head - places the wolves eyes directly in 'front' of the face like all strict predator-carnivores , - as opposed to slightly side-ways on even the closest appearing dogs - another 'sensory' difference . That difference in the skull also includes massively larger & denser cheek/face/jaw bones that are the insertion/connection points for the amazingly stronger jaws of a wolf ( a wolf could literally snap the neck off the strongest of pit-bulls ond even mastiffs & rottweilers with just an average chomp ! ) There's a definite difference in dentition also - a wolves teeth are twice as hard as any dogs , they need to eat bones , gristle , tendons & all on the fly with a quickness in the wild . They have radically different eyes ( you can see the big difference if you ever see the eyes 'flash' in the moonlight ) - they have night-vision twice as good as the best of even hunting-dogs .
<br>And last but not the least - there's a definite difference in the hair/fur of wolves , it's completely different - even in my hybrid wolf-mutt , besides just differnce in colors/markings . They don't just 'shed' some hair in the spring - they shed their 'whole' coats - in damn messy large sheets & layers , & actually change color from coat to coat in the different seasons ( a remnant of the 'arctic' need for white coats & camoflage from snow & woodlands undoubtedly ) - another reason besides all the others why they are impractical 'pets' to say the least . - There's also besides the 'regular' hairs in their coats - some kind of bristly outer hair layer that is pretty much a water-proof coat of coarser ( warmer?) type of hairs - almost like whiskers . & If you ever noticed a threatened dog 'raise its hackles ' , or when it sees a strange dog or animal unexpectedly - you should see the difference when a wolf does it with those coarser back-hairs ! - It looks like they double their size in a split second !

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 27 September 2006 - 08:38 PM.

[Carlos]

To get us back on track, I believe that the Neanderthals were absorbed into modern humans fairly quickly not driven into extinction. The redwolf/coyote analogy is a good one. Although I believe they goofed with naming red wolves as a seperate species from the wolf. The red wolf has been hunted to vitrual extinction and the wild remnants joined with coyotes here in Texas. Many of their descendents were caught and destroyed to preserve the pure bred red wolves instead of letting nature take its course the wild red wolf/coyote hybrids that would have eventually survived and bred true or been absorbed into coyote populations.

I believe that Almas, Yeti's and Sasquatch are seperate species. There's been some fossil evidence that suggests Giganto was a pongoid not a homonid. Sasquatch could also a true homegrown American primate completely seperate from Old world primates. Howlers are nearly the same size African baboons. There no reason not for a bipedal primate not to have evolved on this side of the water since the same conditions existed on both sides. In both North and South America, there were scrub forest next to deserts. Just because we've not found fossil evidence of them yet doesn't mean it won't be found. Tales of a large hairy man of the woods have existed in both North and South America.

El Borak lives: http://www.rwandagat...id_article=2140

[Kortoso]

There's been some fossil evidence that suggests Giganto was a pongoid not a homonid.

Thought they had only some big teeth. Did they find some other bones?

[Carlos]

There's been some fossil evidence that suggests Giganto was a pongoid not a homonid.

Thought they had only some big teeth. Did they find some other bones?

The chromatic spectral dental analysis of some of those teeth suggest that Giganto was strictly vegetarian like gorillas. All homonids have primarily been omnivores which is we may have evolved bigger brains.

here's another reason they've postulated that Giganto was a pongoid. It may still be around:

http://www.cryptomun...ws/johor-women/

The track is very much like a orangtang with the heel of the foot overlaying the knuckles. Orang's are tree dwellers, giganto would half to be a ground walking animal because it would simply too large for trees.

[Carlos]

http://www.smithsoni...neanderthal.php

here's a late news story about an effort to recreate the Neanderthal.

[Sturmrabe]

Painbrush: If you want to read a good fiction novel, that had exensive research into wolf behaviour so it was truly depicted as a sfamiliaraized but undomesticated wolf, rather an just a big dog as they are often depicted, I'd suggest "Wolf and Iron" by Gordon R. Dickson...

And you might try the "flip on back" method whenever you are tested for dominance or he does something you don't want to do, which is a you wrestling him to the ground and head/leg locking him (so he doesn't bite you or squirm out) while on his back and applying some of your weight (don't smoosh him!) until he submit-signals. (You should know by now what THAT is).

[PainBrush]

Painbrush: If you want to read a good fiction novel, that had exensive research into wolf behaviour so it was truly depicted as a sfamiliaraized but undomesticated wolf, rather an just a big dog as they are often depicted, I'd suggest "Wolf and Iron" by Gordon R. Dickson...

I will check that one out - thanks , I've read some Dicksons stuff years ago - he's a good writer .

And you might try the "flip on back" method whenever you are tested for dominance or he does something you don't want to do, which is a you wrestling him to the ground and head/leg locking him (so he doesn't bite you or squirm out) while on his back and applying some of your weight (don't smoosh him!) until he submit-signals. (You should know by now what THAT is).

Believe it or not whenever he's gotten rowdy with the cats , or with pushing me around or whatever - 9 times out of 10 - all I have to do is look him in the eyes & lower my voice to a growl & say 'hey' ! He knows who the top dog is , for now anyways ! hahaha - It's only in weird situations like the chewing up a possum & tasting blood - where he got a bit out of hand & a voice threat wasn't going to do & a physical threat like a swat just provoked an unmistakeable nose-curl & threat right back at me ! - Grabbing him for a back-flip , or even to push him away from his wide-legged posture would've got me mawed up worse than the few chomps I did get trying to see what was in his mouth . My throat-tearing roar & run towards him with a hilariously tiny tree-branch switch re-affirmed his worst fears & my position at the top of the food-chain though without any actual further physical stuff , it seems it's the threat & the lack-of-fear/absolute-confidence that does all the work in the canine world . The bites or physical stuff is almost an afterthought or re-affirmation & does little that's permanent - kind of like saying " I'm the boss - now back off , but here , take this with you to remember me by for now - CHOMP !!! "

Great posts Carlos , thanks for the links too - really good reading ! I hope any talking about parallel evolutionary stuff in other animals besides just humans/neanderthals etc. doesn't get too boring or annoying , or seem too far off-topic - it's been a pretty lively & informative discussion to me so far & I believe it's 'all' relevant stuff in a bigger picture , & if in no other way - just to draw some comparisons between the 'wild' & the 'civilised' - or 'evolved' ?

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 05 October 2006 - 09:59 PM.

[Carlos]

With the discovery and scientific debate about the Hobbits(yes, I said that bad word) in Malayasia, we really have to take a long hard look at some of our supposed mythical beings that are similar in stature. Suppose that there was really a small bipedal homonid that lived in temperate climates like the snow monkeys in Japan. Leprechauns were often described as hairier than humans. There's no evidence that the Neanderthal's didn't evolve right along with modern humans. The only thing that we know for sure is that they stopped existing seperately in the fossil record about 28,000 years ago.

Wolf in Iron was a great book. And just remember, it would only take a generation or 2 of feral dogs to completely revert to something similar to the wild dogs of Africa. Packs of wild dogs around urban areas can routinely bring down deer. Feral cats often grow back to the original size of about 20-25 lbs wild cats of Africa from which they descended and can surivive in areas filled with coyotes and other large predators. Feral equines and goats are also pretty rugged creatures. I would really like shake the hand of the brave person who first decided to milk a cow. Just after calving to this day, cows are still dangerous animals.

[PainBrush]

Packs of dogs around urban areas don't even 'need' 2 generations to become pack animals - I grew up on the Detroit/Hamtramck border right across from the railroad tracks - I could tell you real life horror stories about the railroad dogs & the Dodge Main rats !!! Just a minor one - the last summer before I moved a few miles up from Detroit to the 'burbs a few years back - one night I was up painting late in the summer & heard a cat screaming bloody murder in the feild across the street - which was right in front of the Hamtramck city park - which had the tracks running right behind - about 6 feral dogs had the poor cat surrounded & were just picking it to pieces slowly . By the time I grabbed a big hickory stick & ran downstairs the cat wasn't moving anymore , I chased the dogs back into the park & whipped that axe-handle as hard as I could & knocked one of the dogs legs right out from under him , I threw it hard enough I'm sure it broke something . The damn monsters had been eating small dogs & cats around the south end of Hamtown all summer long & I wanted them to stay the hell out of my block - in case my 2 cats ever got outside . The cat they had been mawing had all his genitals ripped clean off , his intestines hanging out & torn apart & was almost dead , but still sat up every time in delireum when I got close & hissed & spat at me . That was sad to see - he fought right to the end . I had to pick him up with a big wide flat snow shovel to keep from getting bit or clawed & put him in a box . It was 3 in the morning & my girlfriend had taken my car home that night so I couldn't have got it out out to any 24 hour vets in time - it died within a few minutes .

There's a LOT of old 'legends' I guess you'd call it in Detroit - but definitely not 'urban myths' - this stuff is TRUE 100% !! - about the railroad dogs & the wild dogs & rats also that lived in the old 1800's Jewish cemetary right in the middle of the Dodge Main Poletown plant ( now it's inside the G.M. Cadillac plant's fenced in property ) - there were incidents since the 30's , 40's 50's - up until my childhood in the '70's of all kinds of Hobos that fell asleep drunk on the track-banks or railroad-tie piles , in that old cemetary or fields on the Southside , & woke up getting chewed up & some even killed by the wild dogs !! - As teenagers that old cemetary wasn't completely closed off like it is nowadays - being adventurous knuckleheads my friends & me used to dare each other to climb over or under the old red-brick walls around it & walk into the old giant abandoned chapel/mansion on dares . It still had remnants left off this giant 10-foot round star of David stained glass window in the main room - with 20 foot tall cathedral style ceiling & 10 foot tall rows of narrow side windows , all long broken out , when you walked up flocks of pigeons took off scaring the hell out of you - really creepy , like an old vampire movie . Amazing none of us ever got attacked by the dogs over the years .

Growing up on a lake for most of my summers - I solved the decades old mystery of those giant legendary "Dodge Main rats" that grew to the size of small dogs & terrified plant workers whenever they caught site of them - they weren't European city rats at all , they were Musquash ( modern name - muskrats ) !! - There were still some of the old 1800's wooden sewer tunnels that led directly down to the Detroit river miles away - one opened up directly inside/alongside that old cemetary that probably nobody but us knuckleheads & a few hobos had been in for like 80 years . Like an old half-collapsed well - it was an old red-brick tunnel that dropped down about 8 feet to the old wooden sewer tunnels - we NEVER had the nads to climb down there- no matter how fierce the dares .There's still a lot of wild pheasants even today that live in & around the fields & grounds by the G.M. plant , & in all the brush along the railroad track lines . The poor old Pole-town people & Chene ave. folks used to hunt pheasants right there in the city back in the depression days , & I can recall at least one or two incidents of old folks still getting caught around there with hunting rifles back in my childhood years . Muskrats do grow to the size of small dogs & would scare the hell out of someone who had no clue what they are , but I do wonder if they can/did interbreed with the 'regular' huge city rats ? Anyway , there were lots of animals for the wild dogs to eat on the tracks that ran through & alongside the plant & those fields - after the G.M. plant was built in the old Dodge Main area it was all fenced in so the wild-dogs that probably roamed from city to city had to start eating neighborhood animals & pets . - Sorry - this got way off topic , I started reminiscing about my childhood !


-edit - wow , just did a search - I thought any info. on this place would have been lost to the sands of time....
BETH OLEM CEMETARY

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 07 October 2006 - 08:38 PM.

[Carlos]

Painbrush, you the second person that has told me about the serious animal control problems in the Detroit area. A fellow airgun shooter from Tenn. who'd lived in Detroit told me a story of how he and a friend were detained by the Detroit police while on a rat safari in the alley behind his house. The rats had evidently got into the neighborhood and were wreaking havoc to include causing several house fires by chewing on electrical wires. I went on a similar rat hunt in the Mesa,AZ area in '03. But those were the smaller roof rats.

[PainBrush]

hahahaha , the 'wildlife' of inner-city Detroit 'll stop ya dead in your tracks - ask your friend from Detroit what he knows about Belle Isle . I've seen over the years - those pheasants in the plenties , the 'downtown' skyscraper pigeon-eater Falcons , a huge hawk that came in from the 'burbs somewhere & took a kitten , giant rats that chased off cats & me & my buddies - REAL giant rats that make Norway rats look like punks - not 'MuskRats' !! - Wild railroad dogs , possums , raccoons & honest injun - I saw a couple deer running along the service-drive of I.-75 - obviously tired of the wild dogs harrassing them on Belle Isle about 10 miles away !!!!

One night after getting off work at the bar I was doorman at - I wasn't quite done for the evening & used to occasionally ride my bike out on Belle Isle in the middle of the night & 'jump-in-the-river' , I was asked to often enough . one night I sat drunk feeding red-hot cinnamon candies & talking to a damn baby Caribou !! - Or whichever ones have the mossy-horns , elk , caribou , not a moose though - It was prob. only 2 or 3 years old & already head & shoulders taller than a deer . I couldn't get him to stop following me - they LOVE those damn candies !! I actually thought about for a few minutes letting him run alongside my bike through the city streets & taking him home . I didn't quite have the space , or hay in the backyard so I thought better of it & chased him away at the bridge . I found out a short while later the childrens Zoo & the wildlife center on the island had repeated problems with animals bolting & escaping . There was some coyotes too that got loose out there & mixed with the wild-dogs & still roam the island & take down deer regularly . On cable T.V. here there's a program called 'Houston Animal Patrol' & sometimes it's 'Detroit Animal Patrol' & one or two other big cities - as many times as I've watched it - I have yet to EVER see any of those S.P.C.A. or actual cops EVER tackle any of those wild railroad dogs that have been eating peoples pets & the deer & wildlife out on Belle Isle for decades !! - I should do a Steve Irwin - Jeff Corwin style adventure show down in the city !! hahaha .

" Crikey - here we have a sabre-toothed hump-backed speckle-butt Detroit piss-rat !! "
" What a BEAUT !! - One bite from one of these & you'll need yer fingahs sewn back on & 20 rabies shots in yer belleh !! "
" Let's see if we can get any closah & grab it's tail....! "





p.s. - I should add , I grew up with a few 'neandertals' in town too...I have doubts about a couple of my brothers too.......me - I'm strictly cro-magnon , I know how to make fire & tattoos.......

[Ironhand]

October 12, 2006 > Fossil remains show the merging of Neandertals, modern humans

Fossil remains show the merging of Neandertals, modern humans

By Neil Schoenherr

The early modern human remains from the Pestera Muierii (Cave of the Old Woman), Romania, which were discovered in 1952, have been poorly dated and largely ignored.
But recently, a team of researchers from the Anthropological and Archaeological Institutes in Bucharest, Romania, and from WUSTL has been able to directly date the fossils to 30,000 years ago. The fossils prove that a strict population replacement of the Neandertals did not happen.

"What these fossils show is that these earliest modern humans had a mosaic of distinctly modern human characteristics and other characteristics which align them with Neandertals, suggesting some combination of modern humans dispersing into Europe and interacting with and absorbing the Neandertal population," said Erik Trinkaus, Ph.D., the Mary Tileston Hemenway Professor of physical anthropology in Arts & Sciences.

"These fossils have the potential to shed light on several issues regarding early modern Europeans."

The team's research will appear online in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The human remains from the Pestera Muierii present a basically modern human-derived pattern, which is evident in discrete traits and metric aspects throughout the sample. It therefore joins the sample of human remains from the sites of Pestera cu Oase and Pestera Cioclovina in southeastern Europe, Mlade in Central Europe, and Brassempouy, La Quina Aval and Les Rois in western Europe in filling out the anatomy of the earliest of modern humans in Europe.

Yet, as with many of these other Early Upper Paleolithic modern Europeans, the Muierii fossils exhibit a number of archaic and/or Neandertal features.

These data reinforce the mosaic nature of these early modern Europeans and the complex dynamics of human reproductive patterns when modern humans moved westward across Europe.

[PainBrush]

"What these fossils show is that these earliest modern humans had a mosaic of distinctly modern human characteristics and other characteristics which align them with Neandertals, suggesting some combination of modern humans dispersing into Europe and interacting with and absorbing the Neandertal population," said Erik Trinkaus, Ph.D., the Mary Tileston Hemenway Professor of physical anthropology in Arts & Sciences.

..but , but ,.......that can't be !! Beowulf & the Geoths & Vikings killed the last of the trolls when they moved up into Scandland !!! hahah - great article Ironhand - it's always been a 'pet' theory of mine ( pun intended ) - but most folks would tell you you're crazy if you said something like that . It's that "...created them each after it's own kind " thing I hold dear ( it should be apparent I ain't a 'typical' Christian )

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 13 October 2006 - 12:17 AM.

[Kortoso]

Just saw a documentary program on Discovery or the Science channel about Neanderthals. It featured a scientist bringing together all the extant Neanderthal bones to create a nearly complete skeleton.

One expert on the stone tools said that Neanderthal spearheads were too heavy to have been used as throwing spears, so they must have killed game up close and personal. Another report estimated that a tribe or band would have had to kill a red deer on the average every three days to provide enough protein. They looked at the difference in upper arms between right and left, showing that the right arms were getting a lot more use.

The "reenactor" playing the Neanderthal stalked the deer in a pretty unconvincing manner, and as usual, there were gross simplifications, but it's an entertaining show.

[Carlos]

Funny,you should mention the Neanderthal DNA recovery effort:

http://www.cryptomun...s/skull-sample/


We've been told for well over 150 years that Neanderthal's are extinct. What it the mythology of the little people around the world were actually pure Neanderthals surviving to modern times? We always assumed that Neanderthals were hairless like modern humans but what if they weren't? There is less than 100 known Neanderthal sites, some of which haven't produced skeletons. If the modern scientific community has a single glaring flaw, it is that it presumes that it's current theory of natural history is correct. They thought they knew every species of mammal in Europe for 150 years but a little mouse just proved them wrong.

[PainBrush]

Another thing no scientists ever imagined - what if the 'neanderthals' weren't a 'seperate' species ? - What if they were just the poor social & mental 'defectives' like mongoloids with definite physical characteristics different from 'regular' folks , that were a lot of times shunned by people & driven away , to the hills, the woods etc. ? There's only a few buckets of bones that they base an entire seperate species designation on . It's really not so far-fetched if you mull it over , just an idle idea anyhow . How the hell would they know if the ugly neanderthals just kept leaving off dating each other & started to only date the better looking neanderthals over the eons until they all stood straighter , taller & with less prognathic faces ( I think that's the term ) until they all started to look pretty much like most of us do today ()? I know this isn't politically correct & I wish I could think of a better way to say it , but Australian aboriginals who we know lived seperate from the entire rest of the world for thousands of years have a distinctly different physiology & even distinctly different skull & face shapes from pretty much every other race on earth that had the opportunity to mix & mingle over all those thousands of years & probably absorb & dilute ( for lack of a better term ) any major physical differences apart from skin color . I hope that doesn't sound bad , it ain't my intent.......

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 13 October 2006 - 11:32 PM.

[Kortoso]

We've been told for well over 150 years that Neanderthal's are extinct. What it the mythology of the little people around the world were actually pure Neanderthals surviving to modern times? We always assumed that Neanderthals were hairless like modern humans but what if they weren't? There is less than 100 known Neanderthal sites, some of which haven't produced skeletons. If the modern scientific community has a single glaring flaw, it is that it presumes that it's current theory of natural history is correct. They thought they knew every species of mammal in Europe for 150 years but a little mouse just proved them wrong.

No, that's an excellent point, mainstream scientists are not willing to picture Neanderthal as hairy.