33 replies to this topic

[Dantai]

Before I continue, I want you to understand that I'm not necessarily criticising Dale Rippke; largely the reason I use his name in my title is to draw attention. But the other reason why I use his name is because really what I'm doing is criticising the assumption made by practically every Hyborian cartographer who has mapped the south, and Dale Rippke – as I'm sure most would agree – is the paramount Hyborian cartographer, so by using his name, I am demonstrating that herein lies a question that had puzzled the highest echelons of Howard scholarship.

When others read of "the fires of the ultimate south", they make the assumption that this must refer to a volcanic mountain range. But I feel that this misinterpretation after having researched ancient and medieval cartography; research which, it appears, the history-obsessed and well-read Howard himself had done.

When I read of the "fires of the ultimate south", it reminds me of a number of superstitions believed by Greek geographers and Renaissance sailors alike. As such, I don't think of a small mountain chain at the ends of the African continent, I think of a world-encompassing wall of fire; not, of course, a real one, but one believe in and feared by sailors of the Hyborian Age.

Contrary to popular belief and the myth of Phaethon known to the common people of their time, the Greek geographers knew the world to be round. They also knew that the reason for the different biomes was their relative distances from the sun as a result of the Earth's curvature. They concluded, therefore, that the absolute equator, the closest possible place to the sun, must be so hot that a ring of fire must encircle the Earth, and they hypothesised an inaccessible "other Earth" beyond the equator peopled by other races.

This notion carried on into the Age of Sail, where sailors feared that sailing too far south would land them in the equator, a place so hot that the seas boiled and the lands burned. They were afraid of reaching the "ultimate south", beyond which no man can survive and into which no man can go.

This ring of fire didn't necessarily have to exist as a geological feature in Conan's time – indeed it didn't – nor does it have to be believed to exist in the vicinity of the actual equator, as the further south men sailed, they could simply have continued believing that the equator was even further on. It is sufficient enough that the superstitions held by the ancients and by Renaissance sailors were also held by the people of the Hyborian Age. Perhaps Belit sailed south and experienced the intense heat of the tropical sea, at which point the she and her superstitious sailors turned back, or perhaps she is merely using hyperbole. Like Rippke's theories about the African region of the Hyborian Age being effected by plate tectonics, I feel that alternate interpretations may arise from Howard scholars looking at Howard's creation using theories that didn't exist during Howard's time. Howard would surely have been prone to the popular scientific and historical theories of his time. I also feel, perhaps, that it is partly wishful thinking on the part of Hyborian Age cartographers attempting to extract as many mappable locations from Howard's writings as possible.

Some Hyborian maps put a volcano range at the bottom of Hyboria and name them after Belit's phrase, but even though these hypothetical mountains could mark the end of the Hyborian landmass, there's still a sea and multiple islands beyond, so there's very little that is ultimate about them.

I also don't feel that a volcanic range truly embodies "the ultimate". Ultimate means "absolute". The "ultimate" south, therefore, is the south beyond which no man can ever hope to go, courtesy of those "fires". "Ultimate", and specifically "the ultimate", implies something far more impenetrable and far more notable than just another volcano that could easily be sailed around, otherwise they would just be "the Southern Fires". "The fires of the ultimate south" feel more as if they are the absolute, ultimate limit of the sailable world.

On a similar theme, I'd like to mention that I'm frequently disappointed at how small and geologically out-of-place the Southern Desert is on most maps. Amalric mentions his belief that the Southern Desert goes on for thousands of miles, and the desert is described as "vast", yet no maps to date represent this; they show it to be tiny. Why would Amalric have this belief if the Southern Desert was observably only a couple of days' march across? I also don't feel that its positioning on most maps really grants it the title of "southern", when there's so much that is further south of it. And, of course, it's a desert in the middle of a very green land, which I find unfeasible. Rather than seem like a natural feature, it looks like an article tagged on just to make the story fit. It also doesn't make sense, to me, for Tombalku to be so mythical and isolated when all people have to do to find it is take a scoot around that tiny desert. A larger and more impassable desert makes much more sense. Nor does it make sense for somewhere so small to have so much culture – if the desert was that tiny, its denizens would just find somewhere greener, and there would be little need to find an oasis when the green lands are just a day east or west. It just looks completely out of place where it is, and would make far more sense, and be much larger, if it were located further south along the Tropic of Capricorn, like the Namib Desert, with the mythical Tombalku isolated from the rest of the world by the impassable, Ghanata-infested Southern Desert, which spans from the west to if the not the very east of the continent, at least nearly there, marking the southern limit of the Black Coast and contributing to the "fires of the ultimate south" that Belit believes she saw – a dead land roasted by the fires that encircle the Earth. And of course, mythical Tombalku hiding beyond it, in a land that most people would believe to be aflame.

 

That said, it's still perfectly possible for Tombalku to be so mythical to Hyborians at the edge of a small and more northerly desert if we consider that they believe the Southern Desert to be so vast and impenetrable, and perhaps Amalric was simply deluded and I'm buying into his delusions.

But if we do follow this logic, this would also place the Southern Isles, home of the Black Corsairs, more north than on Rippke's map. It also suggests an "African" region much larger than Rippke supposes, and considering that his justification for sinking the southern black lands uses the science of plate tectonics – which I'm not convinced was available to Howard at the time considering his usual tradition of catastrophism – it's not a justification that I can wholeheartedly accept.

In conclusion, my belief is that "the fires of the ultimate south" are not a physical location at all, just a superstitious myth to denote the very edge of the traversable world.

PS. On an unrelated note, check out the link below if you haven't already. The article talk about the prevailing geological and historical theories that affected Howard's writing. It also references Howard's Bran Mak Morn story "Men off the Shadows", which provides a history of the Thurian Celts who Rippke expresses confusion about in his "Mysteries of the Pre-Cataclysmic Age".
Reference: http://www.thecimmer...f-lewis-spence/

Edited by Dantai, 22 March 2013 - 02:41 PM.

[Taranaich]

Hell of a first post, Dantai, welcome to the forums!

Dale's site Heroes of Dark Fantasy was my introduction to Hyborian Scholarship, and I owe a great debt to Mr Rippke for that. However, due to the vagaries of the subject and every individual's own historical biases, there are naturally going to be areas where people disagree. Many of the theories put forward in The Hyborian Heresies have been questioned with new documents and publications which have come to light - the Giant-Kings, the arrangement of the Black Kingdoms, the placement of Conan in the Hyborian timeline, and so forth.


In writing the Hyborian Age Encyclopaedia, I've been making a concerted effort to present only the "facts," with extrapolation and theory clearly denoted, so that it's as clear as possible what is indisputable in Howard's text, and what is not, be it implicit associations or wild conjecture. That Conan used the pseudonym Amra is "fact": exactly what Amra means, however, is conjecture. That sort of thing. The problem comes when people take the conjecture as "proven": thus we have Vince Darlage utilizing much information from Rippke in his maps and history rather than formulating his own ideas.


I haven't dealt with the FotUM in the encyclopedia yet, but I put forward several theories as to what they could indicate, which indeed includes a word on the "boiling seas" superstition, as well as suggestions like volcanic range, deserts and whatnot.

[deuce]

Rippke – as I'm sure most would agree – is the paramount Hyborian cartographer, so by using his name, I am demonstrating that herein lies a misunderstanding that has made its way to the highest echelons of Howard scholarship.

Hey Dantai! I'll echo Al/Taranaich in welcoming you to the forum.

I agree that Mr. Rippke is the foremost cartographer of the Hyborian Age world. While I often disagree with Dale on other topics, his Hyborian Age cartographic work is almost always solid, IMO. Did Dale put "the fires" at the southern end of the Stygian continent? I don't have access to that essay at the moment.

When others read of "the fires of the ultimate south", they make the assumption that this must refer to a volcanic mountain range, simple because they cannot think of anything else to say on the matter. But I feel that this misinterpretation is due to a lack of research by these scholars in ancient and medieval cartography; research which, it appears, the history-obsessed and well-read Howard himself had done.

REH was definitely history-obssessed and well-read.

When I read of "the fires of the ultimate south" back in 1980, I immediately associated it with Mount Erebus in Antarctica (and the volcano complex therewith). Erebus was closely connected with the expeditions of both Ross and Shackelton. It's hard to believe REH didn't know of the volcano simply from that, but there's another source that would've piqued his interest: Lovecraft's At the Mountains of Madness.

In that tale, HPL explicitly linked Erebus to the "Mount Yaanek" of Poe's "Ulalume".

We know from his letters that Robert E. Howard was rabid to read the novella. Here's what he wrote to HPL immediately after doing so:

REH to H.P. Lovecraft, ca. November 1931: "Many thanks for the opportunity of reading your magnificent 'At the Mountains of Madness'. This story certainly deserves publication in book form and I hope some day to see it so published. There is not, as far as I can see, a single false or unconvincing note in the whole; the entire story has a remarkable effect of realism. And I marvel once more -- as in so many times in the past -- at the cosmic sweep of your imagination and the extent of your scientific and literary knowledge."

Note the date. About 6mo before Howard wrote QotBC.

It just occurred to me that (since REH was also a huge Poe fan) there might even be bit of resonance with the "lost love" and "Yaanek" themes of "Ulalume" and Belit and her "fires" in QotBC.

While I first equated "the fires" with Ross Island in 1980, I'm not sure that I ever posted such online until I annotated QotBC in February 2007 here: http://www.conan.com...topic=4136&st=0

[Dantai]

I don't think any of these theories are mutually exclusive. As mentioned, the "fires", if we go with the boiling sea idea, don't have to be precisely near the real equator because it only exists as a myth; an idea rather than an actual location. Any volcanic islands would simply add gravity to the myth.

I'm not sure though how much I feel Erebus to be linked to the idea of the fires. Although it's certainly possible that it set a seed in REH's mind, it seems unlikely that Belit knows of a mountain at the centre of a continent that has only been technologically accessible to human exploration incredibly recently.

[Amra_the_Lion]

Welcome Dantai. Maybe sort of a play on names as in Dante's inferno with all this talk on a world-encompassing wall of fire.

It seems like most of your disagreements are with the "official" Mongoose map and predecessors.

"By Ishtar, I have never seen your like, though I have ranged the sea from the coasts of Zingara to the fires of the ultimate south. Whence come you?" - Queen of the Black Coast

Dale Rippke does equate Bêlit’s statement with his far southern islands but doesn't include the phrase on his map.

THE SOUTHERN ISLANDS
The Southern Islands are home to a number of island kingdoms, and provide the impetus and manpower behind the infamous Black Corsairs. The inhabitants of the isles developed in isolation and are not of common Negroid stock; they are described as having straighter features and hair, as well as being rangier and cleaner limbed than the average Kushite. The Black Corsairs are described in “The Jewels of Gwahlur” as being the wolves of the southern coasts, which imply that they raid the southern and southeastern coasts as well as the infamous Black Coast in the west. The islands are located in both “Queen of the Black Coast” and “Hour of the Dragon” as lying far to the south of Stygia. I believe that Bêlit’s mention the “fires of the ultimate south” refers to the volcanic nature of the islands. While most maps place the islands in the Western Sea off the southern Black Coast, I believe that they are actually located to the south of continental Kush due to the southern part of the African tectonic plate being submerged.
Although there isn’t any historical truth to the islands, they appear on my map as the tops of the submerged Drakensberg Mountain range. - Dale Rippke To the Styx and Beyond

Rippke places The Southern Islands as the most southern items on his maps with no other visible landmasses or islands beneath it.

Rippke's thoughts on the size of the Southern Desert:

THE SOUTHERN DESERT
This vast, desolate desert lies to the east of Kush and covers a great expanse of the western grassland region. Howard used the desert as the setting of “Xuthal of the Dusk”, placing the lost city of Xuthal deep within its western region. The desert took stage again in the unfinished fragment that would eventually become known as the “Drums of Tombalku”. Kothic exiles built the city of Gazal on an oasis in the eastern part of the desert, while far to the southwest lay the politically divided city of Tombalku. It is also the home of tribes of desert nomads; the Ghanata in the east and the mask-wearing Tibu far to the south. The total extent of this desert is a bit nebulous. Howard, in his “Drums of Tombalku” fragment, has the Aquilonian warrior Amalric (who has been roaming the desert for months, but is currently encamped at a palm-bordered spring) expressing disbelief that there is a city nearby, stating that he thought there was only desert for a thousand miles. This is a pretty incredulous statement, since it seems to imply the possibility that the desert is somewhere between one thousand to two thousand miles across (depending where he is camped upon it). This seems to be patently impossible since it would make the desert be twice as wide as the nation of Stygia. Honestly, a two thousand mile wide desert would stretch from Kush eastward to the ocean off Iranistan, not to mention completely displace the region of Darfar. While I believe that Howard intended for this desert to seem huge, my opinion is that Amalric is engaging in a fair bit of hyperbole. The desert seems to be encompassed by Kush to the west and north, Stygia to the northeast, Darfar and Amazon to the east and a segment of grassland to the south inhabited by various black tribes, members of the empire of Tombalku.

I myself when working with Trent Thompson on our Map of the Hyborian Age chose not to include Bêlit’s phrase because as Taranaich says there are several possibilities on what it could mean. Also "the fires of the ultimate south" is not capitalized and may not be an actual location rather a figure of speech possibly referring to the nautical beliefs and legends that you refer to. If there were a literal or figurative boiling sea or wall of fire it could be at the bottom of the map past the extent of the cartographed region. I did place the homeland of the corsairs the Far Southern Isles at the far southern end of the continent (which Deuce disagrees with). That does not mean however that is what Bêlit was referring to or that they may or may not be volcanic islands.



In regards to the Southern Desert and distances the Kalihari Desert in modern Africa is roughly 600 miles to cross in any direction but covers more than approximately 350,000 square miles. In your speculation on size of the desert are you including semi-arid areas, hard pan and dry basin areas that are not considered true deserts (which would include nearly all of the Kalihari)? The modern Namib Desert is only roughly 1,200 miles long and 280 miles wide at the northern end. In what sense are you using the word desert? In what sense do you think Howard was using the word desert for his character Amalric? I did choose to place the Southern Desert further south than most maps and it encompasses the cities of Tombalku, Gazal, and Xuthal and is larger than previous maps covering a linear distance of roughly 500 miles from north to south ending at the region of the Zarkheba River where jungle commences. Are you also taking into account that there were further geographic and climatic changes due to lesser cataclysms at the end of the Hyborian Age that Howard spoke of (a terrific convulsion of the earth with great strips of land sinking and mountains raising up) to change the face of the land to eventually become our modern world? Meaning that desert locations do not necessarily need to correspond to existing current deserts. Especially considering that Howard said that the whole western half of Africa was underwater during the Hyborian age.

At the beginning of the Hyborian Age:

"Then the Cataclysm rocked the world. Atlantis and Lemuria sank, and the Pictish Islands were heaved up to form the mountain peaks of a new continent. Sections of the Thurian Continent vanished under the waves, or sinking, formed great inland lakes and seas. Volcanoes broke forth and terrific earthquakes shook down the shining cities of the empires. Whole nations were blotted out." - REH in The Hyborian Age

At the end of the Hyborian Age:

"But where land sank elsewhere, a vast expanse west of Stygia rose out of the waves, forming the whole western half of the continent of Africa." - REH in The Hyborian Age

Dantai if you are so frequently disappointed about the existing maps or theories out there on possible cartographic references to history that Howard may have referenced, why not make your own map with your expostulations on it to back your research? One thing I would counsel however is that unless you purposely mean to include pastiche references you should not use the term Hyboria as it is not found in any of Howard's writings.

Many Hyborian maps put a volcano range at the bottom of Hyboria and name them after Belit's phrase, but even though these hypothetical mountains could mark the end of the Hyborian landmass, there's still a sea and multiple islands beyond, so there's very little that is ultimate about them.

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 16 July 2012 - 11:46 PM.

[Amra_the_Lion]

When others read of "the fires of the ultimate south", they make the assumption that this must refer to a volcanic mountain range, simple because they cannot think of anything else to say on the matter. But I feel that this misinterpretation is due to a lack of research by these scholars in ancient and medieval cartography; research which, it appears, the history-obsessed and well-read Howard himself had done.

That is an assumption that there is a perceived lack of research because fictional maps do not conform with your ideology as pertaining to a story phrase that historical maps or cartography were not consulted if they chose to use a specific interpretation of the phrase other than yours.

The Torrid Clime or inhospitable zones of the world on a Mappa Mundi in La Fleur des Histoires. 1459-1463

It is sufficient enough that the superstitions held by the ancients and by Renaissance sailors were also held by the people of Hyboria. Belit sailed south and experienced the intense heat of the tropical sea, at which point the superstitious sailor turned back, or perhaps she is merely using hyperbole. Like Rippke's theories about the African region of Hyboria being effected by plate tectonics, it seems that this problem has developed as a result of Howard scholars looking at Howard's creation using theories that simply weren't around during Howard's time, as opposed to attempting to understand the popular scientific and historical theories of his time that inspired his writing, as well as wishful thinking on the part of Hyborian cartographers attempting to extract as many mappable locations from Howard's writings as possible.

Many Hyborian maps put a volcano range at the bottom of Hyboria and name them after Belit's phrase, but even though these hypothetical mountains could mark the end of the Hyborian landmass, there's still a sea and multiple islands beyond, so there's very little that is ultimate about them.

It appears that role playing game maps, comic book maps or the mongoose map are the only ones I am aware of that place a volcanic mountain range named the fires of the ultimate south. It appears to have started with Chrysagon's map which was the basis of the mongoose map but I may be wrong at least I don't recall an earlier one.

Amalric mentions his belief that the Southern Desert goes on for thousands of miles, and the desert is described as "vast", yet no maps to date represent this; they show it to be tiny. Why would Amalric have this belief if the Southern Desert was observably only a couple of days' march across? I also don't feel that its positioning on most maps really grants it the title of "southern", when there's so much that is further south of it. And, of course, it's a desert in the middle of a very green land, which I find completely unfeasible. Rather than seem like a natural feature, it looks like an article tagged on by Hyorian cartographers just to make the story fit. It also doesn't make sense for Tombalku to be so mythical and isolated when all people have to do to find it is take a scoot around that tiny desert. A larger and more impassable desert makes much more sense. Nor does it make sense for somewhere so small to have so much culture – if the desert was that tiny, its denizens would just find somewhere greener, and there would be little need to find an oasis when the green lands are just a day east or west. It just looks completely out of place where it is, and would make far more sense, and be much larger, if it were located further south along the Tropic of Capricorn, like the Namib Desert, with the mythical Tombalku isolated from the rest of the world by the impassable, Ghanata-infested Southern Desert, which spans from the west to if the not the very east of the continent, at least nearly there, marking the southern limit of the Black Coast and contributing to the "fires of the ultimate south" that Belit believes she saw – a dead land roasted by the fires that encircle the Earth. And of course, mythical Tombalku hiding beyond it, in a land that most people would believe to be aflame.

The southern appellation is obviously a matter of perspective most Hyborians would agree with considering it is south of Stygia that Howard considered in the south of his world.

"They fall upon that mysterious pre-human kingdom of the south and overthrow it, substituting their own culture, modified by contact with the older one. The newer kingdom is called Stygia, ..." - Robert E. Howard in The Hyborian Age.

Amalric finds an unheard of city (Gazal) in the midst of the Southern Desert and tromping around Conan leads him to the semi-mythical city of Tombalku, what are the odds in such an immense desert! There are also many reasons why a group of people may choose to live in the desert even if there are more habitable areas nearby some of which include war, politics, famine, hostile neighbors, climate change, historical sacred lands, etc.

"They had come into the desert and built the city over an oasis long ago - a cultured, scholarly race, not given to war. They were never attacked by any of the fierce and brutal nomadic tribes, because these people looked on Gazal with superstitious awe, and worshipped the thing that lurked in the southeaster tower." - Untitled Synopsis/The Tombalku Typescripts

"a Shemitish tribe which pushed into the desert several hundred years before" - Untitled Synopsis/The Tombalku Typescripts

"This desert, seemingly empty of life, never the less contained some of the fiercest tribes on earth ..." - Untitled draft/The Tombalku Typescripts

An impassable desert all depends on the equipment and transportation available to you. Even a relatively small desert can be impassable and mean certain death to the unprepared. In the fictional setting of Howard's Hyborian Age you have grasslands, jungles, or forests terminating abruptly in deserts that as far as the eye can see are impassable but may not be so to those who know the locations of oases or other water sources or that have water supplies with them and desert transportation camels, traveling by caravan, etc. Just because it appears to stretch for thousands of miles does not mean it does even if a character believes it does.

"A mile away in that direction the forest thinned out and ceased abruptly, giving way to a cactus-dotted plain." - Red Nails

It could take several days or weeks to travel across several hundred miles of desert safely by horseback or camel or in a caravan and be completely impossible to do the same route on foot. In the modern world there are several examples of deserts ending in marshes and jungles take for example the rainforests of the Amazon turning into the deserts of Peru and Chile separated by the Andes or on the other side turning to desert prior to reaching the Atlantic Ocean in eastern Brazil. In the south the Amazon jungle turns to swamps or forest then to plains and finally to desert. Also think of Australian deserts terminating in coastal swamps and rain forests. How about Egypt and the Nile delta or the miles of forested oasis after oasis that separate the Arabian Desert from the Libyan Desert etc. The desert around Tombalku probably consists of true desert (the blazing empty sands) dotted by oases where they subjugated several tribes of the southwest desert and semi-arid areas where they subjugated tribes of the steppes to the south of them. The deserts are punctuated by oases and grasslands south of Xuthal which I suppose is the same Southern Desert that we find Tombalku and Gazal and the oases and steppes mentioned south of those cities.

Conan made it across the desert on foot after being severely wounded.

"We'll take our chance with the desert," said he. "Thalis spoke of an oasis a day's march to the south, and grasslands beyond that. If we reach the oasis we can rest until my wounds heal." - Xuthal of the Dusk

"We got off light, after all: we have wine and water and a good chance of reaching a habitable country, though I look as if I've gone through a meatgrinder, and you have a sore-" - Xuthal of the Dusk

Amalric was mistaken in his estimation of the desert as he had not been in the region before although Conan had prior in Xuthal of the Dusk.

"City?" he muttered. "A day's travel from this spot? I had thought there was only desert for a thousand miles."
"Gazal is in the desert," she answered. "It is built amidst the palms of an oasis." - Untitled draft/The Tombalku Typescripts

"We rode southward into the desert, because there was no other direction in which we might go. Conan had been in this part of the world before, and he believed we had a chance to survive. Far to the south we found an oasis, but Stygian riders harried us, and we fled again, from oasis to oasis, fleeing, starving, thirsting, until we found ourselves in a barren unknown land of blazing sand and empty sand." - Untitled draft/The Tombalku Typescripts

...and contributing to the "fires of the ultimate south" that Belit believes she saw – a dead land roasted by the fires that encircle the Earth. And of course, mythical Tombalku hiding beyond it, in a land that most people would believe to be aflame.

This would also place the Southern Isles, home of the Black Corsairs, more north than on Rippke's map. It also suggests an "African" region much larger than Rippke supposes, and considering that his justification for sinking the southern black lands uses the science of plate tectonics – not available to Howard at the time – it's not a justification that I accept.

In conclusion, "the fires of the ultimate south" are not a physical location at all, just a superstitious myth to denote the very edge of the traversable world.

I chose to sink many areas of the African coast on my map not because of plate tectonics but because Howard specifies it in The Hyborian Age. I chose to place the home of the corsairs far and to the south because Howard says they are far southern isles.

So which is it? First you say that "the fires of the ultimate south" is reference to an earth encircling wall of flame or the belief in one then you say that Bêlit believes it to be a dead land roasted by fires, then back to not a physical location at all? I don't think that Bêlit's beliefs about the fires of the ultimate south or even what she may have seen are evident from the quote and that is more conjecture on your part. I do think that you were closer when you said she was just using hyperbole as a possible reference by Howard to superstition.

"By Ishtar, I have never seen your like, though I have ranged the sea from the coasts of Zingara to the fires of the ultimate south. Whence come you?" - Queen of the Black Coast

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 17 July 2012 - 05:04 AM.

[Dantai]

Hey guys, thanks for the responses! All interesting stuff.

[deuce]

When others read of "the fires of the ultimate south", they make the assumption that this must refer to a volcanic mountain range, simple because they cannot think of anything else to say on the matter. But I feel that this misinterpretation is due to a lack of research by these scholars in ancient and medieval cartography; research which, it appears, the history-obsessed and well-read Howard himself had done.

Amra has done a very scholarly job responding to most of your points, but there were a few of your comments that warranted something further, IMO.

As a child and teenager, my main historical interests were Vikings, the "Classical" period and Native Americans/Amerindians/"Injuns". Reading more Robert E. Howard led me, naturally, to focusing more on the Medieval/Renaissance period (which, to REH, was ALL "medieval").

Meanwhile, cartography was always a passion of mine. I loved (and still love) maps. I drafted my own map of the Thurian Age when I was 18. I drew one of CAS' Zothique (the most accurate to-date, IMO) when I was 22. Over the last 25yrs, I've read numerous books on ancient/classical/medieval cartography. I also drafted as lot of maps for my home-brew RPG campaign. In 2007, I drew up what is generally considered the most accurate Thurian Age map. Like I said, a passion of mine.

Following that passion, I wrote a blog entry for The Cimmerian all about Conan and cartography. I believe I was also the first to compliment the very talented Trent Thompson on his use of compass roses when rendering his map of the Hyborian Age.

None of the previous, rest assured, is in the service of bragging on myself nor boring you. It's just that, considering your statement above, you might be ignorant regarding what I'm not ignorant of.

So, no, there's been no "lack of research" on my part. On Howard's part, however...

I assume you've read the three volumes of Howard's letters, am I correct? Someone with your level of assurance would seem to have done so. To my knowledge, REH really never mentioned cartography, let alone any "boiling sea". THAT is something I would remember. My first encounter with the "boiling sea" concept was by way of De Camp's The Golden Wind in 1985.

When I read about the "boiling sea", the thought occurred to me that there might be some connection with Belit's "fires". I discounted the entire idea for reasons explicated below.

When I read of the "fires of the ultimate south", it reminds me of a number of superstitions believed by Greek geographers and Renaissance sailors alike. As such, I don't think of a small mountain chain at the ends of the African continent, I think of a world-encompassing wall of fire.
Contrary to popular belief and the myth of Phaethon known to the common people, the Greek geographers knew the world to be round. They also knew that the reason for the different biomes was their relative distances from the sun as a result of the Earth's curvature. They concluded, therefore, that the absolute equator, the closest possible place to the sun, must be so hot that a ring of fire must encircle the Earth, and they hypothesised an inaccessible "other Earth" beyond the equator peopled by other races.

This notion carried on into the Age of Sail, where sailors feared that sailing too far south would land them in the equator, a place so hot that the seas boiled and the lands burned. They were afraid of reaching the "ultimate south", beyond which no man can survive and into which no man can go.

Can you give an actual Medieval/Renaissance quote for this "ultimate south" idea? From sailors? Same thing for the "wall of fire". Even if so, Howard makes no mention of it in his Medieval/Renaissance ("Howardian Medieval") yarns. Like Wolfshead.

Forum software prohibits more quoted text.

[deuce]

When others read of "the fires of the ultimate south", they make the assumption that this must refer to a volcanic mountain range, simple because they cannot think of anything else to say on the matter. But I feel that this misinterpretation is due to a lack of research by these scholars in ancient and medieval cartography; research which, it appears, the history-obsessed and well-read Howard himself had done.

When I read of the "fires of the ultimate south", it reminds me of a number of superstitions believed by Greek geographers and Renaissance sailors alike. As such, I don't think of a small mountain chain at the ends of the African continent, I think of a world-encompassing wall of fire.

Contrary to popular belief and the myth of Phaethon known to the common people, the Greek geographers knew the world to be round.

OK, so we're back to the general ignorance of previous REH scholars.

Also, something reminds you of something else. Whether Robert E. Howard had any knowledge of such is an open question.

All through the "Howardian Medieval" period, there were scholars and sailors who were aware that the world was round. By the early "Renaissance", sailors were venturing into the "tropical/equatorial/boiling/flame" zone. See Wolfshead.

This notion carried on into the Age of Sail, where sailors feared that sailing too far south would land them in the equator, a place so hot that the seas boiled and the lands burned. They were afraid of reaching the "ultimate south", beyond which no man can survive and into which no man can go.

You have to understand that this ring of fire didn't necessarily have to exist as a geological feature in Conan's time – indeed it didn't – nor does it have to be believed to exist in the vicinity of the actual equator. It is sufficient enough that the superstitions held by the ancients and by Renaissance sailors were also held by the people of Hyboria. Belit sailed south and experienced the intense heat of the tropical sea, at which point the superstitious sailor turned back, or perhaps she is merely using hyperbole. Like Rippke's theories about the African region of Hyboria being effected by plate tectonics, it seems that this problem has developed as a result of Howard scholars looking at Howard's creation using theories that simply weren't around during Howard's time, as opposed to attempting to understand the popular scientific and historical theories of his time that inspired his writing, as well as wishful thinking on the part of Hyborian cartographers attempting to extract as many mappable locations from Howard's writings as possible.

Who are these "people of Hyboria"?

Robert E. Howard does use something resembling "plate tectonics" in the "Hyborian Age" guideline and Marchers of Valhalla. Neither here nor there. You're trying to impose a mindset that Howard never referred to. He left enough clues (clues you've ignored, IMO) to show that HIS African/Stygian Continent (as revealed in his Conan tales) extended FAR past any "zone of fire".

Many Hyborian maps put a volcano range at the bottom of Hyboria and name them after Belit's phrase, but even though these hypothetical mountains could mark the end of the Hyborian landmass, there's still a sea and multiple islands beyond, so there's very little that is ultimate about them.

Right. However, "fires/volcanoes" just a few degrees from the antarctic pole WOULD be the "ultimate south" (in sailing terms).

Everything south of the Styx is the "Stygian continent". Robert E. Howard said so.

[Dantai]

I apologise for my tone of writing and if I have insulted anyone who has made the effort to map Conan's world. I see now that my disagreement with past Hyborian cartography is ill-voiced. As Howard himself said that he purposely kept the south and east vague in his mind, I don't believe it will ever be possible to create a perfect map, especially considering that we are mapping an imaginary world, many details of which appear to have been alluded to on the fly. The best we can hope for is a close approximation that contradicts nothing written by Howard; the rest is mere extrapolation.

As I said, I'm not implying that a literal wall of fire encircles the Hyborian globe, I am merely disagreeing with the conjecture that Belit's "fires of the ultimate south" represent a physical location, and in relation to this I present my theories as to what Belit could have encountered to have inspired her to believe that she had sailed to the ultimate south (or whether she is in fact lying). It is very possible that a volcanic location could have inspired this belief, but I do not consider the location itself to be to be only a representation of the idea to which she is referring, and not the embodiment of the idea itself. And of course although Howard certainly knew of the existence of Mount Erebus and may have seen this as being "the fires of the ultimate south", it is a location far too inhospitable for Belit to have reached, especially when she claims that she has "sailed" there.

I am also expressing my disappointment that the Southern Desert has thus far never been mapped as being as vast as Howard's writings would have me believe, nor Tombalku as far away as its mythical status would suggest. That said, Aquilonians express disbelief at the existence of Nordheim, a much closer country...

Edited by Dantai, 17 July 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[deuce]

Another clue is the use of the phrase "the ultimate". Ultimate means "absolute". The "ultimate" south, therefore, is the south beyond which no man can ever hope to go, courtesy of those "fires". "Ultimate", and specifically "the ultimate", implies something far more impenetrable and far more notable than just another volcano that could easily be sailed around, otherwise they would just be "the Southern Fires". "The fires of the ultimate south" are absolute, ultimate limit of the sailable world.

That would be "navigable world".

Could Belit and her corsairs hope to sail "beyond" Ross Island? I doubt it. Thus and therefore, Ross Island (and its volcanoes) would be the "ultimate south".

On a similar theme, I'd like to mention that I'm frequently disappointed at how small and geologically out-of-place the Southern Desert is on most maps. . And, of course, it's a desert in the middle of a very green land, which I find completely unfeasible.

I think Amra (as usual) has answered your questions. "Deserts" are a feature from the sub-arctic to the tropical (but NEVER the "equatorial").

It also doesn't make sense for Tombalku to be so mythical and isolated when all people have to do to find it is take a scoot around that tiny desert. A larger and more impassable desert makes much more sense. Nor does it make sense for somewhere so small to have so much culture – if the desert was that tiny, its denizens would just find somewhere greener, and there would be little need to find an oasis when the green lands are just a day east or west. It just looks completely out of place where it is, and would make far more sense, and be much larger, if it were located further south along the Tropic of Capricorn, like the Namib Desert, with the mythical Tombalku isolated from the rest of the world by the impassable, Ghanata-infested Southern Desert,

Wow. You are aware of the general concensus that Tombalku equates to Timbuktu?

a dead land roasted by the fires that encircle the Earth. And of course, mythical Tombalku hiding beyond it, in a land that most people would believe to be aflame.

WHERE is this mentioned in the Conan yarns or anywhere else?

[deuce]

I apologise for my tone of writing and if I have insulted anyone who has made the effort to map Conan's world. I see now that my disagreement with past Hyborian cartography is ill-voiced. As Howard himself said that he purposely kept the south and east vague in his mind, I don't believe it will ever be possible to create a perfect map, especially considering that we are mapping an imaginary world, many details of which appear to have been alluded to on the fly. The best we can hope for is a close approximation that contradicts nothing written by Howard; the rest is mere extrapolation.

Of course, it isn't possible to create a "perfect map". THAT IS A GIVEN.

However, Robert E. Howard left many clues (not all of them in the Conan yarns) which can lead to a "more perfect" map. Your theories "contradict" what Howard wrote. That simple. Throwing out "mere extrapolation" as a cover for not taking all the data into account won't cover your position.

As I said, I'm not implying that a literal wall of fire encircles the Hyborian globe, I am merely disagreeing with the conjecture that Belit's "fires of the ultimate south" represent a physical location, and in relation to this I present my theories as to what Belit could have encountered to have inspired her to believe that she had sailed to the ultimate south (or whether she is in fact lying). It is very possible that a volcanic location could have inspired this belief, but I do not consider the location itself to be to be only a representation of the idea to which she is referring, and not the embodiment of the idea itself. And of course although Howard certainly knew of the existence of Mount Erebus and may have seen this as being "the fires of the ultimate south", it is a location far too inhospitable for Belit to have reached, especially when she claims that she has "sailed" there.

WHY couldn't Belit have sailed to Ross Island? Howard had Odysseus sail to the South Pacific.

[Dantai]

Not sure why, but this image does steer me towards more easily believing that a mythical Tombalku could exist beyond a smaller, more northerly Southern Desert, especially with Ghana (Ghanata, anyone?). Now, if you'll kindly stop being a deucebag, I'd like to hear theories on what the Tombalku empire looked like (Mali, I'm guessing) and how far it stretched across the lands of the southern Stygian continent. Again, maps tend to downplay its size in my opinion, against the size its imperial and mythical status would cause one to assume. Is there a previous topic discussing this?

Also, any word on how closely the "completed" story by LSdC comes to Howard's outline? I've not managed to track down this outline; if someone could point me to a copy, I'd very much appreciate.

Also, if a Mod could kindly change the name of this topic to "Tombalku and the South", that would be lovely, as I'd like to make that the topic of discussion.

[deuce]

Not sure why, but this image does steer me towards more easily believing that a mythical Tombalku could exist beyond a smaller, more northerly Southern Desert, especially with Ghana (Ghanata, anyone?).

As AtL pointed out, the Southern Desert isn't that small.

BTW, the "Ghanara" that Howard mentioned most likely came from the "Vendhyan Sub-Continent".

Now, if you'll kindly stop being a deucebag

Now, if you'd kindly start paying attention... I spent over a year reading posts on this forum before I posted. After THAT, it was about SIX MONTHS before I felt I'd absorbed enough Howardian scholarship (and general knowledge) from this site to post my own thread. I've never been big on starting new threads (especially if I don't know what I'm talking about).

A little over a year from when I first posted on the Forum I was giving a presentation in Cross Plains. NOT a testament to me, just a testament to doing the scholarship. Harron and Shanks (whose blog entry you cited) have walked the same road.

Just because you posted on here without doing the necessary legwork (AND insulted everyone who came before you) doesn't mean you can get bitchy when called on it.

I adjusted your thread title.

[Amra_the_Lion]

I apologise for my tone of writing and if I have insulted anyone who has made the effort to map Conan's world. I see now that my disagreement with past Hyborian cartography is ill-voiced. As Howard himself said that he purposely kept the south and east vague in his mind, I don't believe it will ever be possible to create a perfect map, especially considering that we are mapping an imaginary world, many details of which appear to have been alluded to on the fly. The best we can hope for is a close approximation that contradicts nothing written by Howard; the rest is mere extrapolation.

Apology accepted. I know that was not your intent and that you were just voicing frustration to what seemed to you poorly executed or planned maps. However you must realize that nearly all of the maps that exist owe direct inspiration to those of the past even if that inspiration is an ah-ha moment of trying to clarify something that may not have been done in the past. I disagree myself with many of Dale Rippke's theories however I would never have formulated any of my own if he had not got the thought processes rolling.

The way I look at it each map represents the best information that was available at the time. You might say, "How is that when the stories themselves have been available since the 1930s?". Even still, few have the original Weird Tales and even then it would be an incomplete collection of Conan stories. For decades no pure or unaltered Robert E. Howard stories were available. We now have unprecedented access to all of the unaltered stories, unpublished stories, unfinished stories, and even clues from letters and correspondence, as well as notes from the man's desk showing his thought processes. Previous cartographers did not have such luxuries. Never before were Howard's own three maps of Conan's world available for close scrutiny to the general public.

Beginning with Miller and Clark and probably many others the stories have inspired many to attempt to chart the fantastic locations that populated our imaginations after reading Howard. They were lucky enough to get a nod of respect from Howard and a gentle correction with inclusion of a map of Howard's own in reply. Since then many have speculated what the world of Conan should look like and have attempted it starting with the Lany map. Unfortunately because of lack of information or just reliance on tradition many maps followed their predecessors in perpetuating errors. Most maps were also trying to incorporate the impossible by tying pastiche tales in with Howard because those were the only ones available with the Gnome Press editions and later the Lancer/Ace editions, and finally the Tor series, or even Marvel comic books. Because the pastiche stories contradicted many times what Howard wrote but were the prominent or in the 1980s and 1990s only Conan stories available several errors were incorporated into the cartography. To muddy the waters further the owners of the Conan licenses officially endorsed pastiche and wanted to further their sales above and beyond the Howard original stories and published maps to support them. Dale Rippke did some excellent sleuthing in revealing the histories of how the different maps have come about down through the decades; from the Miller and Clark map, Lany map, the several maps that have appeared in The Savage Sword of Conan and many other comic books, and the Amra fanzine, current published books of the time, to the current "official" versions used by CPI for role playing games and video games.

Each map in its time was hailed as a great accomplishment based on the information (or misinformation) available. There was a time when Chysagon's map and others were simply the best, most beautifully rendered maps to date of Conan's world. The Mongoose map based on Chysagon's work was phenomenal compared to those that passed before it. We have the position of hind sight is 20/20 and still there is disagreement. Now we have the luxury of nit picking and fault finding those predecessor cartographers and their work because we know better in terms of facts about the world that have recently come to light.

You and Deuce are absolutely correct when saying that a perfect map is impossible because we are cut off from the source and he chose not to map the southern regions.

Howard himself never felt the need to map out exactly the Black Kingdoms south of Stygia.

“I feel indeed honored that you and Dr. Clark should be so interested in Conan as to work out an outline of his career and a map of his environs. Both are surprisingly accurate, considering the vagueness of the data you had to work with. I have the original map - that is the one I drew up when I first started writing about Conan-- around here somewhere and I'll see if I can't find it and let you have a look at it. It includes only the countries west of Vilayet and north of Kush. I've never attempted to map the southern and eastern kingdoms, though I have a fairly clear outline of their geography in my mind. However, in writing about them I feel a certain amount of license, since the inhabitants of the western Hyborian nations were about as ignorant concerning the peoples and countries of the south and east as the people of medieval Europe were ignorant of Africa and Asia. In writing about the western Hyborian nations I feel confined within the limits of known and inflexible boundaries and territories, but in fictionizing the rest of the world, I feel able to give my imagination freer play. That is, having adopted a certain conception of geography and ethnology, I feel compelled to abide by it, in the interests of consistency. My conception of the east and south is not so definite or so arbitrary.

Concerning Kush, however, it is one of the black kingdoms south of Stygia, the northern-most, in fact, and has given its name to the whole southern coast. Thus, when an Hyborian speaks of Kush, he is generally speaking of not the kingdom itself, one of many such kingdoms, but of the Black Coast in general. And he is likely to speak of any black man as a Kushite, whether he happens to be a Keshani, Darfari, Puntan, or Kushite proper. This is natural, since the Kushites were the first black men with whom the Hyborians came in contact - Barachan pirates trafficking with and raiding them.” - Robert E. Howard Letter to P. Schuyler Miller

Deuce even disagrees with my map specifically how I place kingdoms south of Stygia and what constitutes the Black Kingdoms which you can check out in this thread:

(Amra's) The Chronicles of Conan the Cimmerian

When it comes to the southern half of the world there will always be disagreement because it is all speculation. Some locations are mentioned only once or the only clue is a single word. It is hard to argue opinion over placement when one word or sentence is the only example of the place Howard ever mentioned. That being said we can try to surmise based on the best guesses with the information at hand and I again invite you to try your hand at Hyborian Age cartography. I made a map and Trent Thompson illustrated it for me because we disagreed with the previous maps. Take your theories and put them down in a chart for every one to see, make your "perfect" map. Just be prepared to defend your position with research and quotes. To each his own perfect map and we are always looking for the latest and greatest yet to date.

To disagree is one thing to insult is another. I disagree with many things Dale Rippke theorizes but owe everything to him in getting the conversation started. It is difficult to not walk the fine line of pointing out possible errors without seeming condescending and I have been guilty of it in the past.

Welcome again to the boards as Taranaich said hell of a first post and entrance. I jumped right in like you did and quickly found myself in over my head with scholars who had been studying the subject matter for years.

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 18 July 2012 - 08:01 AM.

[Amra_the_Lion]

We are always up for some good discussion and disagreements abound but be ever so careful about name calling as it is a certain path to being banned. Deuce is definitely the wrong person to start barking up a tree with and even he lets his emotion show through a little with blunt comments, but he unlike you is currently a moderator of this forum. He has the knowledge and background work at the Cimmerian to back up his snarky side when posting.

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 18 July 2012 - 03:08 AM.

[Amra_the_Lion]

I'd like to hear theories on what the Tombalku empire looked like (Mali, I'm guessing) and how far it stretched across the lands of the southern Stygian continent. Again, maps tend to downplay its size in my opinion, against the size its imperial and mythical status would cause one to assume. Is there a previous topic discussing this?

Also, any word on how closely the "completed" story by LSdC comes to Howard's outline? I've not managed to track down this outline; if someone could point me to a copy, I'd very much appreciate.

Deuce and I get into a discussion on what constitutes a kingdom and possible placements in the above mentioned thread. For the original Robert E. Howard untitled, unfinished synopsis and draft (the Tombalku typescripts) look in The Bloody Crown of Conan published by Del Rey.



http://howardworks.c...nan-DelRey.html

[deuce]

I did place the homeland of the corsairs the Far Southern Isles at the far southern end of the continent (which Deuce disagrees with). That does not mean however that is what Bêlit was referring to or that they may or may not be volcanic islands.

Hey Amra!

Without going back over your thread, my recollection is that we disagreed about Atlaia and "the lands south of the black kingdoms of Kush".Personally, I have ZERO problem with the "Southern Isles" being the southernmost points of the Stygian continent (sorta like Tierra del Fuego and South America). I do disagree with Rippke in that the Isles are situated in the present location of the Drakensbergs. Instead, I prefer the Great Karas Mountains of Namibia for various reasons. Still, it's only a matter of degree and not one I'm willing to get worked up about.

[deuce]

I don't think any of these theories are mutually exclusive. As mentioned, the "fires", if we go with the boiling sea idea, don't have to be precisely near the real equator because it only exists as a myth; an idea rather than an actual location. Any volcanic islands would simply add gravity to the myth.

Unless, of course, you take into account what Robert E. Howard actually wrote. Amra has provided all of the pertinent quotes.

Once the "equator" was passed (as Belit almost assuredly did at some point; probably while gathering a crew from the "Southern Isles"), then the entire "boiling sea idea" becomes ludicrous.

All of the lands Howard alludes to cannot be crammed above the equator. Even if they could, Zaporavo's crew didn't freak out at being weeks at sea (sort of the "longitudinal" version of the same thing). In Wolfshead (set about 1480) the Portuguese are in equatorial Africa.


Once again, Howard's descriptions of ALL the lands south of Stygia make no sense if they are all crammed north of the equator. There's no reason to do so unless one stays chained to an erroneous concept from 2000yrs ago that Robert E. Howard doesn't even seem to have known about.

I'm not sure though how much I feel Erebus to be linked to the idea of the fires. Although it's certainly possible that it set a seed in REH's mind, it seems unlikely that Belit knows of a mountain at the centre of a continent that has only been technologically accessible to human exploration incredibly recently.

Where do I start?

I gave you a link to Mount Erebus. That link explains the fact that Erebus is on Ross ISLAND. Ross Island is at the very edge of Antarctica. Were you instead thinking of Mount Sidley? While Erebus is on roughly the same longitude as New Zealand, it would be MUCH shorter sailing distance due to its polar location. Somewhat like sailing from Britain to Newfoundland.

Dantai, I've checked all the references you've provided. I wish you'd return the courteous favor..

Personally, I don't see Ross' crew (in 1841) as being far superior to Belit and her bad-a$$ corsairs. Magic, barbaric vigor and all that. Much of the boreal polar regions had been explored by Vikings with little-to-no technological advantage.

[deuce]

The way I look at it each map represents the best information that was available at the time. You might say, "How is that when the stories themselves have been available since the 1930s?". Even still, few have the original Weird Tales and even then it would be an incomplete collection of Conan stories. For decades no pure or unaltered Robert E. Howard stories were available. We now have unprecedented access to all of the unaltered stories, unpublished stories, unfinished stories, and even clues from letters and correspondence, as well as notes from the man's desk showing his thought processes. Previous cartographers did not have such luxuries. Never before were Howard's own three maps of Conan's world available for close scrutiny to the general public.

Beginning with Miller and Clark and probably many others the stories have inspired many to attempt to chart the fantastic locations that populated our imaginations after reading Howard. They were lucky enough to get a nod of respect from Howard and a gentle correction with inclusion of a map of Howard's own in reply. Since then many have speculated what the world of Conan should look like and have attempted it starting with the Lany map. Unfortunately because of lack of information or just reliance on tradition many maps followed their predecessors in perpetuating errors. Most maps were also trying to incorporate the impossible by tying pastiche tales in with Howard because those were the only ones available with the Gnome Press editions and later the Lancer/Ace editions, and finally the Tor series, or even Marvel comic books. Because the pastiche stories contradicted many times what Howard wrote but were the prominent or in the 1980s and 1990s only Conan stories available several errors were incorporated into the cartography. To muddy the waters further the owners of the Conan licenses officially endorsed pastiche and wanted to further their sales above and beyond the Howard original stories and published maps to support them. Dale Rippke did some excellent sleuthing in revealing the histories of how the different maps have come about down through the decades; from the Miller and Clark map, Lany map, the several maps that have appeared in The Savage Sword of Conan and many other comic books, and the Amra fanzine, current published books of the time, to the current "official" versions used by CPI for role playing games and video games.

Each map in its time was hailed as a great accomplishment based on the information (or misinformation) available. Their was a time when Chysagon's map and others were simply the best, most beautifully rendered maps to date of Conan's world. The Mongoose map based on Chysagon's work was phenomenal compared to those that passed before it. We have the position of hind sight is 20/20 and still there is disagreement. Now we have the luxury of nit picking and fault finding those predecessor cartographers and their work because we know better in terms of facts about the world that have recently come to light.

An excellent write-up, AtL.

 

I raise a mead horn to Ballantine/Del Rey and the REH Foundation as well.