[Brule80]

I'm quite new to Howard as a writer.

I've been aware of Conan for about 25 years, bot not in the literary sense.

I'm reading KING KULL right now, the 1976 British edition, edited by Glenn Lord and some of the stories were apparently finished by Lin Careter, it has a map of Valusia by Carter at the start of the book.

The stories I've read so far are impressive, suchas THE BLACK ABYSS, DELCARDES CAT and ALTAR OF THE SCORPION.

Uncluttered storytelling. Anyone read this or care to comment?

[El Borak's Li'l Brother]

I have read the 1979 Bantam Kull book, the 1968 Lin Carter edited Kull book and have waiting just feet away the Baen copy from the 90's waiting to be read. Howard's Kull was...uh, is a great character and it's too bad Howard didn't write more.

[HARPERSGRACE]

For some unknown reason Kull stories didn't sell, Conan did so Howard used much of his Kull material, rewriten of course in his Conan stories. I find Kull a great character and also wish more had been writen. Movie sucked by the way...had none of Kulls spirit.

[Nial_the_Smith]

the movie was entertaining.

[aguaman]

HARPERSGRACE, on Aug 14 2004, 06:56 PM, said:

For some unknown reason Kull stories didn't sell, Conan did so Howard used much of his Kull material, rewriten of course in his Conan stories. I find Kull a great character and also wish more had been writen. Movie sucked by the way...had none of Kulls spirit.

Naw. Kull sold fine. In fact, HP Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith PREFERRED the Kull stories to the Conans, and Weird Tales fans clamored for Howrd to drop his Conan character and write more Kull stories. Imagine that? In any case, Howard just moved on. He was constantly experimenting with his literary art, trying to devise the story and character that was just right to his way of thinking. If a character or series didn't quite live up to his expectations or if he became suddenly enthusiastic about a different character, idea, or story, his old characters left him -- or more accurately, he left them to focus on the new idea. Think of it as evolving literature.

It is a mistake to say that Howard rewrote "much" of his Kull material into Conan stories, just as it is a mistake to think of Kull and Conan as the same character. There was only one Kull story that he rewrote into a Conan story, and that was "By this Axe I Rule" into "Phoenix on the Sword." And this is very telling. One of Howard's last Kull tales becomes his first Conan story. A metamorphosis occured here.

Fans have often remarked that the Kull stories are more thoughtful and philosophical than the Conan tales, but after studying the stories I've found this to be absolutely false. The difference is merely that the "thought" and philosophy in the Kull stories is in your face, while in the Conan stories it is more subtle and in the background. It may be a major difference in the characters, however. Kull's philosophy is yet to be formed throughout the stories, whereas Conan's philosophy is fully formed and in play.

[Matt Spencer]

Actually it talks quite extensively in the introduction of the Baen edition how only two Kull stories sold in Howard's lifetime. I very much enjoy the Kull stories, though he's the only Howard hero (other than Kirowan, who was ... a never quite successful attempt at someone totally different) who's adventures sorta blur together in my mind. There are no less than three stories where the arc goes: forbidden lovers try to marry, seek the king for help, Kull says it's none of his business, one or the other of couple saves Kull's keister, Kull grows a stately backbone and sticks up for their union. As opposed to Conan, and far more emphatically Solomon Cane, who show change through life over the course of their adventures, Kull seems to learn the same lesson over and over.

Still, I like how Kull's the true "philosopher king," and how his philosophy not only guides him through adventures, but gets him into them! (witness "The Mirrors of TuzuneThune")

And he’s a rather enigmatic fellow, being such a bruiser, yet having quite explicitly NO sex drive whatsoever!

[aguaman]

Matt Spencer, on Aug 17 2004, 04:52 PM, said:

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Actually it talks quite extensively in the introduction of the Baen edition how only two Kull stories sold in Howard's lifetime.

All true, except how many stories did Howard submit to Weird Tales? How many stories did Howard complete? And why did Howard turn a deaf ear to his fans who wanted more Kull stories? Not to mention his peers HPL and CAS who he admired.

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I very much enjoy the Kull stories, though he's the only Howard hero (other than Kirowan, who was ... a never quite successful attempt at someone totally different) who's adventures sorta blur together in my mind. There are no less than three stories where the arc goes: forbidden lovers try to marry, seek the king for help, Kull says it's none of his business, one or the other of couple saves Kull's keister, Kull grows a stately backbone and sticks up for their union. As opposed to Conan, and far more emphatically Solomon Cane, who show change through life over the course of their adventures, Kull seems to learn the same lesson over and over.

Right... in a way. You could say that Kull was banging his head against the same problem over and over, trying to make it work, trying to find a solution, trying to do the "right thing," until he finally realized that it was all BS, and declared "By this axe I rule!" But also keep in mind that many of those stories were not meant to be published by REH. They were either rough drafts, working ideas, or simply discards.

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Still, I like how Kull's the true "philosopher king," and how his philosophy not only guides him through adventures, but gets him into them! (witness "The Mirrors of TuzuneThune")

Again, it's not his philosophy that is guiding him, but rather his sensibilitiy. His philosophy, or rather philosophy in general,was something he was banging his head against all throughout the series. A wise and all knowing "philosopher king" he is not. It is in "The Mirrors of Tuzune Thune" that Kull realizes that all philosophy is sophistry and BS, and falls back on his instinct. It seems to me that many of Kull's problems, and indeed the problems of the world, stemmed from philosophy itself... and that to live a good life a man should rid himself of both philosophy and social obligations. At least, that seems to be the moral of the Kull stories to me.

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And he’s a rather enigmatic fellow, being such a bruiser, yet having quite explicitly NO sex drive whatsoever!

I guess, but there was (and still is) a school of thought that views women as the achilles heel of men. That women weaken, tie down, subordinate, and diminish the male nature. And in Howard's day, sex was far more taboo than it is today. In many circles, the sex act (or even sensuality) was considered perverse and indecent... impure, and Howard was raised in the Bible Belt of the 1920's. Think Samson and Delilah.

You can see the same sensibility expressed in the Conan stories as well, but instead of Conan rejecting sexual desire, he opts for the "love 'em and leave 'em" solution. Both are ways to avoid being tied down and subjected to the domination of women, and I should note that neither method has anything to do with homosexuality if that was what you were implying. It has, instead, to do with the maximization of freedom and the support of the intrinsic male nature. At least that's the way it all seems to me.

[Matt Spencer]

No, I wasn't implying that Kull's gay. I wouldn't see it as a problem if he were, but I think it's an all too prevalent modern tendency of readers to project this and other sorts of ridiculously out of place subtext onto old literature.

In general, Howard's writing suggests that he was rather guiltlessly amorous, and there are plenty of yarns where the hero gets the girl, and appears to be off to live happily ever after with her.

[aguaman]

Matt Spencer, on Aug 18 2004, 01:43 PM, said:

No, I wasn't implying that Kull's gay. I wouldn't see it as a problem if he were, but I think it's an all too prevalent modern tendency of readers to project this and other sorts of ridiculously out of place subtext onto old literature.

I couldn't care less if he was gay either, but I aim for accuracy whenever possible. I agree with your comment that modern readers often project ridiculously out of place subtext, and meaning, onto literature. The subjective reader response school of literary criticism is all the rage it seems, and whereas it does have some validity when trying to understand a work of art's impact upon people or cultures, it ignores and somewhat undermines what the author meant to say. It's like me writing "The sky is blue." and you think I meant to say the sky is sad. There are reasonable connections, but the conclusions are all wrong. That's why it's so important to go back and read Howard's letters and other primary biographical sources, and then read Howard's work. This way you can identify concepts and ideas that Howard was concerned about within his work and KNOW that is what was meant.

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In general, Howard's writing suggests that he was rather guiltlessly amorous, and there are plenty of yarns where the hero gets the girl, and appears to be off to live happily ever after with her.

I like your phrase "appears to be off to live happily ever after." It's spot on. Appearance (as opposed to substance or certain knowledge) is a very important idea in Howard's work. All is not what it seems. That said, whatever happens to the girl after the story ends? We never find out. And in many tales, where we expect the girl to be with the hero after the last story, she is mysteriously missing without a note and the hero goes on his way without a single thought of the past.

As far as amore and Howard... it's really all conjecture. There are hints, but not solid evidence. Too bad the 1930's were so tight lipped about romance. But it does appear that Howard was a romantic, at least, had 3 girlfriends, and he knew that sex in stories sold. Howard had a rebellious attitude toward these things, and tried to slip in decadent, indecent, and risque sexual content in his stories whenever he could, mostly because he knew his readers would love it. Very little of this content passed the censors/editors, and even when it did, the content was so subtle that most readers don't even notice it. Did you notice the "lesbianism" in Red Nails? I didn't, but apparently Howard put it in there. He says so.

But in any case, back to Kull. The Kull stories are indeed linked to the Conan stories, but mostly through theme not really character. Hmmm. Actually it's pretty darn complex. The two characters are really the embodiment or reflection of an idea that Howard was developing. He started developing the idea in Kull and refined it when he began writing Conan. I'm talking here about Howard's "Barbarism vs. Civilization" theme which is present in both series but takes different forms.

In any case, it was good to talk about Kull and Conan a little with you. I don't often have the chance to do this. Too darn busy.

All the best,

Edward Waterman

[Ironhand]

It seems to me that Kull, at least at first, respected civilization, and wanted to learn from it. Conan's attitude toward civilization was completely feral. As a teenage thief, he mistrusted civilization, but was determined to milk it for all he could. In his mature years, he had plumbed civilization's weaknesses, and his mistrust had been replaced by contempt. His exploitation of it had become easy and practiced. What a switcheroo when he became king of a civilized nation! I guess his attitude then was that a leader was supposed to be loyal to his followers, and craftmanship demanded that he be a conscientious king.

This post has been edited by Ironhand: 19 August 2004 - 12:06 AM

[HARPERSGRACE]

The thing I have found is that if you take any of Howards main characters ie. Kull, Conan, Kane, etc. with out considering the others you are doing yourself and his writing a dissevice. The characters are all part of a continuing story, a flow in time and place, they are all part of each other as if the one character was constantly being reborn through out time. Howard may have writen short stories but his scope was epic.

[aguaman]

Ironhand, on Aug 18 2004, 04:04 PM, said:

It seems to me that Kull, at least at first, respected civilization, and wanted to learn from it.  Conan's attitude toward civilization was completely feral.  As a teenage thief, he mistrusted civilization, but was determined to milk it for all he could.  In his mature years, he had plumbed civilization's weaknesses, and his mistrust had been replaced by contempt.  His exploitation of it had become easy and practiced.  What a switcheroo when he became king of a civilized nation!  I guess his attitude then was that a leader was supposed to be loyal to his followers, and craftmanship demanded that he be a conscientious king.

Excellent observations, Steve.

As far as Conan's "switcheroo" when he became king, I think you're very close. My thoughts on the matter differ only slightly. "Loyal to his followers"... I suppose, but it's always seemed to me to be more like loyal to his friends, as if Conan took his mores and values that he held for individuals (and himself) and applied it to a national scale -- expecting the same kind of loyalty in kind (as one would from a friend). If you recall, one of Conan's (or Howard's) main complaints in Hour of the Dragon is that the people are fickle and easily turn on you -- even after they've hailed you as liberator. In other words, they're not acting like the friends that Conan believed they were. Another example of his own values applied to his kingdom is his principle of freedom of religion -- a very, very non-midieval and certainly democratic concept. Heh. Can you imagine Conan imposing the worship of Crom upon everyone in Aquilonia? There'd be mass suicides!

Another thing that influenced his rule was probably how things were done in Cimmeria. There's a comment, oh I forget which story, where Conan remarks that in Cimmeria, everyone shares what food they have, but in a civilized city people starve to death while standing outside restraunts (or something like that). This is actually, going back to Howard and his pioneer values of the American 1800's. It was an accepted practice to offer shelter and food to passersby and travellers, as the journey and the countryside was so harsh. Its one of the ways people survived back then as they made their way across the country, and Howard considered it a moral obligation... based on the need to survive, of course.

As a statesman or bureaucrat, Conan is out of his element, and somewhat of a fish out of water. Conan wouldn't have lasted long as a stately, peaceful symbol of the establishment, and probably would have jumped boat. But as Howard notes in The Hyborian Age, Conan was soon forced into wars of agression with other kingdoms, so there was probably very little chance for Conan to become bored. And besides... it's good to be the king!

[heartbreakkid19]

I have the copy of Kull on my book shelf but after reading this it is going to have to be the next one I read.

[Cohen]

I'm about halfway through the Lancer edition, and I realize this might be a little blasphemous to say around here, but I like Kull as a character over Conan. Maybe I like characters who tend more to gigantic melancholies than to gigantic mirths.

Conan has overall better stories though.

Question though: Lin Carter finished a couple of these stories and edited one. By "edited" what exactly did this mean, as opposed to just finishing the fragments?

[Ironhand]

Cohen, on Oct 15 2004, 03:41 AM, said:

I'm about halfway through the Lancer edition, and I realize this might be a little blasphemous to say around here, but I like Kull as a character over Conan.  Maybe I  like characters who tend more to gigantic melancholies than to gigantic mirths.

Conan has overall better stories though.

Question though: Lin Carter finished a couple of these stories and edited one. By "edited" what exactly did this mean, as opposed to just finishing the fragments?

Understand that when you see posters here badmouthing Kull, they are talking about the movie, not about REH's Kull.

The postumous editing often had the effect of dumbing down REH's work.

[alex]

"The Shadow Kingdom" what a story. Nothing wrong with a preference for Kull, one of the largest fragments REH ever wrote makes me wish so hard he had a chance to finish it. The Red Slayers were just about to enter the uncharted lands beyond Grondar, again, what a tale. Comics finished this one but it isn't the same.

[Nomadikk]

Shadow Kingdom was awesome.. Just wish the scriptwriter for Kull read that one before making that god-awful movie =)

I have the Baen edition of Kull, is there a better copy of Kull stories to get than this one?

[Primeval]

Nomadikk, on Oct 15 2004, 08:37 AM, said:

Shadow Kingdom was awesome.. Just wish the scriptwriter for Kull read that one before making that god-awful movie =)

I have the Baen edition of Kull, is there a better copy of Kull stories to get than this one?

I have the Grant edition, but I am not sure what the content comparison is, or what degree of editing was done. I always thought the Grant editions were pure Howard, but think I read somewhere that is not the case? The Grant edition has some really good illustration plates and also some weird ones.

[trev78]

I have never read any Kull stories execpt for the comics, which would any of you recomend.

[trev78]

I love that book cover, whos the artist?