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Maps of Hyborian Age Earth


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#281 Halfdane

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:51 PM

I think my point of view might have to do with how I read the stories. I'm ignoring anything non-Conan; even Kull.
And I'm weighing the actual tales that were published (or intended to be) as much more important than The Hyborian Age, fragments, and even the maps.

Basically, I'm trying to look at Conan's world as he saw it during his adventures. Therefore anything before his age that somebody relates to him would be considered suspect of being false -- either from a corruption in historical tradition, embellishment, sensationalism, etc.

Does that make sense? In other words: I want to know what the map Conan draws at the end of The Scarlet Citadel would look like. It apparently neglected Nordheim and Cimmeria before he revised it. It probably also neglected everything south of Stygia, as well; being very Hyborian-centric. I'd like to think that Howard's final map is Conan's map, where it still focuses on the Hyborian Kingdoms, but that the Northern territories have been added -- while it still becomes increasingly vague the further south and east it looks.

In reading the tales this way -- keeping the "signposts" of geography in mind as I read along -- I only encountered a world that would fit well* with the Last Glacial Maximum.

*Though obviously I had to do a little bit of flexing sometimes; such as the division of the Lands of Shem into regions separated by sea. (Of course, the semitic people did spread from Africa to Anatolia, so again: it's not much of a stretch).

So I look at catastrophism as just a memory of a memory in Conan's time, in the same way that we still compare geological evidence of great floods against ancient traditions.

#282 deuce

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 08:56 PM

I think my point of view might have to do with how I read the stories. I'm ignoring anything non-Conan; even Kull.
And I'm weighing the actual tales that were published (or intended to be) as much more important than The Hyborian Age, fragments, and even the maps.

Basically, I'm trying to look at Conan's world as he saw it during his adventures. Therefore anything before his age that somebody relates to him would be considered suspect of being false -- either from a corruption in historical tradition, embellishment, sensationalism, etc.

Does that make sense?


With all due respect, not much.


In other words: I want to know what the map Conan draws at the end of The Scarlet Citadel would look like.


Posted Image Was Conan drawing this map while while beheading Tsotha-Lanti?


In reading the tales this way -- keeping the "signposts" of geography in mind as I read along -- I only encountered a world that would fit well* with the Last Glacial Maximum.

*Though obviously I had to do a little bit of flexing sometimes; such as the division of the Lands of Shem into regions separated by sea. (Of course, the semitic people did spread from Africa to Anatolia, so again: it's not much of a stretch).s.


I'd say "flexing" could also be rendered as "twisting to the point of unrecognizability". Thugra Khotan's maneuvers in "BC" are nonsensical with this map, as are Conan's strategies in "AWSBB".

Khemi (and the mouth of the Styx) lies facing the Western Sea (Atlantic Ocean). It's as simple as that. Kush doesn't lie west of Stygia, nor does Argos lie almost due west from Stygia. The Styx takes a sharp bend westwards a little bit s-w of Kuthchemes and flows for hundreds of miles westward. "BC" and "TVoLW" would both be rendered virtually incomprehensible if such wasn't the case.

The climates of the kingdoms involved (on the whole) would not fit that ascribed to their equivalents during the Younger Dryas.



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#283 Halfdane

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 09:19 PM

Oops. I meant the beginning of TPotS, not the end of TSC. I'm sure you knew what I was talking about.

Thank you for actually taking the time to evaluate my theory, even if only to poke some holes in it. Now I can go back and look at those problem spots. I still hold that it is valid to keep an open mind for new interpretations.

I wish that you could have at least understood the perspective of trying to approach the topic from an emic rather than an etic position. It would be the difference of looking at it as an insider, who lives and breathes in the world; and an outsider, who is familiar with it through histories, maps, and other second-hand information.

#284 deuce

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 09:34 PM

Now I can go back and look at those problem spots. I still hold that it is valid to keep an open mind for new interpretations.

I wish that you could have at least understood the perspective of trying to approach the topic from an emic rather than an etic positio
n. It would be the difference of looking at it as an insider, who lives and breathes in the world; and an outsider, who is familiar with it through histories, maps, and other second-hand information.


I have no problem with open minds; I'm just not sure what purpose this "new interpretation" serves.

I've been familiar with "emic" and "etic" perspectives for quite some time. However, your "new interpretation" seems to be a curious hybrid. Lets look at these quotes:

"At the time I made my map I hadn't yet read "The Hyborian Age", where Howard reinforces what is and isn't dry land. So at that point I wasn't completely sold on the seas being dry or western Africa being sunk. As I read on, I had fun keeping two versions of "Hyboria" in mind: one that reflected Howard's intentions, and one that reflected a historical geography of the last ice age. I just imagined away the the borders that crossed into the water; pretending that they represented shipping lanes/territory:"

"Basically, I'm trying to look at Conan's world as he saw it during his adventures. Therefore anything before his age that somebody relates to him would be considered suspect of being false -- either from a corruption in historical tradition, embellishment, sensationalism, etc.
Does that make sense? In other words: I want to know what the map Conan draws at the end of The Scarlet Citadel would look like. It apparently neglected Nordheim and Cimmeria before he revised it. It probably also neglected everything south of Stygia, as well; being very Hyborian-centric. I'd like to think that Howard's final map is Conan's map, where it still focuses on the Hyborian Kingdoms, but that the Northern territories have been added -- while it still becomes increasingly vague the further south and east it looks.

In reading the tales this way -- keeping the "signposts" of geography in mind as I read along -- I only encountered a world that would fit well* with the Last Glacial Maximum."


You state that you want to know what Conan's map looked like, but this really seems to be all about you and the fact that you can't reconcile Howard's (and Conan's) fictional Hyborian Age (an age undreamed of by paleogeologists) with what is now "known" (as if such knowledge isn't constantly evolving).

All of this appears to concern your own comfort as a reader and really has nothing to do with Conan's "emic" perspective within the tales. If it was about Conan, you wouldn't have started with a map of the Younger Dryas and then tried to shoehorn the tales into that. Instead, you would have written down all the geographic clues from the Conan saga and drawn conclusions therefrom.

Personally, I feel that any of REH's hand-drawn HA maps are perfect candidates for "Conan's map" (minus the underlying modern-day outlines). The basic, square-cornered look of the maps very much conveys the feeling of having been rendered by an amateur cartographer.

An article about Conan the Cartographer can be found here:

http://www.thecimmer...us-and-papyrus/




Edited by deuce, 22 April 2011 - 09:58 PM.

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#285 Halfdane

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 08:21 AM

That's fine. I'm over it. I never said that I was arguing in favor of my experiment; and in fact only did say that I was seeking arguments against it by asking people to find passages that would deflate it. I said that it was fun to read the stories while looking at it in two different ways. Sorry you didn't think it was a fun idea. Go back and look at those quotes, why don't you.

Was there any way for you to engage me without trying to make it look like I was somehow an insecure reader? Of course, having read these boards for a few months before actively posting, I was already sure that when I did get around to actually posting...half of what I said would be quoted back to me by you, with your little scrutinizations. Seems to me one has to be a pretty adventurous reader to put forth unconventional theories here without being hounded for daring to do so.

In case there is any question in your mind: Howard's 1936 map is what I visualize the Hyborian Age to look like. That should have been pretty clear when I said that I imagined that to be what Conan's map looked like. Good job at trying to make it look like I didn't think that, and then later agreeing with the premise (but in a way that made it look like it was your idea alone).

If it was about Conan, you wouldn't have started with a map of the Younger Dryas and then tried to shoehorn the tales into that. Instead, you would have written down all the geographic clues from the Conan saga and drawn conclusions therefrom.


Looking at "all the geographic clues from the Conan saga" is exactly what I said I did.

Here's how I weigh the clues on geography:
-Descriptions from within the tales
-Howard's map(s)
-The Hyborian Age

My only conclusion pertaining to my side-experiment that it worked out pretty well. I have re-read the tales that you pointed out. BC works even more perfectly than I remembered. AWSBB doesn't work, since there can't be a Sea in the desert south of Khauran. I won't bother going into detail or bringing up the others tales, since I have a feeling it won't be worth my time. As for Argos and Kush being west of Stygia...what are you even looking at??? On my experimental map, Kush clearly has an arrow pointing south, just as on Howard's map. As far as Argos, the southern part containing Messantia is placed exactly as it is on Howard's map. The only difference is the distortion on each of our maps.

I will agree with you that the climates wouldn't square with the details in the text. But this map still shows the similarities between the Hyborian Age Thuria and an Earth where there is only X amount of water.

Sorry you didn't see what "purpose" my map served. But I'm even more sorry that "fun" didn't register as a purpose to you. Maybe this forum isn't the place for me.

Edited by Halfdane, 23 April 2011 - 08:29 AM.


#286 deuce

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 09:39 AM

That's fine. I'm over it. I never said that I was arguing in favor of my experiment; and in fact only did say that I was seeking arguments against it by asking people to find passages that would deflate it. I said that it was fun to read the stories while looking at it in two different ways. Sorry you didn't think it was a fun idea. Go back and look at those quotes, why don't you.


As far as making a Hyborian Age map using speculative maps of Ice Age Europe, that's been done before on this forum (on this thread, IIRC). I had no particular problem with that approach, as long as they weren't seriously trying to say that's how the Hyborian Age actually was (which they didn't). To be honest, I love it when some present-day Pleistocene data can be worked into HA maps without doing violence to REH's concepts. Dale Rippke has done it more than once and I've praised him for it.

Was there any way for you to engage me without trying to make it look like I was somehow an insecure reader? Of course, having read these boards for a few months before actively posting, I was already sure that when I did get around to actually posting...half of what I said would be quoted back to me by you, with your little scrutinizations. Seems to me one has to be a pretty adventurous reader to put forth unconventional theories here without being hounded for daring to do so.


You call this being hounded? You asked for feedback. It wasn't until you brought up the "etic" and "emic" perspectives that I felt compelled to point out that there isn't anything particularly "emic" about all this. You read the stories, the map didn't square with how things had to be/really were, so you decided to play around with the map. Fine. Suddenly, this "fun game" became a "challenge" to find the "etic"/Conanic view of the Hyborian Age's geography. Like I said, a curious hybrid. The desire to find this "emic" view comes entirely from your "etic" knowledge that the Hyborian Age could not be the way REH's map shows it to be.

Plenty of unconventional theories have been put forth on this forum. Many of them seem to emanate more from the "gut feeling" region than anywhere else. There doesn't seem to be so much a sense of adventure as just declaring revelatory feelings based on minimal data. Some theories were quite cool, even to the point of adopting them as my own.

You're an educated person, Halfdane. You know that it's always rough going for anyone who propounds "unconventional theories". If the facts are on your side, then you shall prevail. "Scrutinizers" like me can't prevent that.

I never called you an "insecure reader", nor have I thought that. From my nowhere-near omniscient vantage, you seem to be trying to tell us that your "fun game" is also an "unconventional theory" that should be taken seriously. Also, that your view of HA geography is one with that of Conan's "emic" view. Or something.

No, rather than an "insecure reader", I would compare you to David Drake. In his Cormac Mac Art pastiches, Drake felt absolutely compelled to portray events/characters/places as they historically "had" to be, notwithstanding what REH had already written. I respect Drake's talents and knowledge a lot, but that's just silly, IMO. He just couldn't have "fun" with it. Sound familiar?

In case there is any question in your mind: Howard's 1936 map is what I visualize the Hyborian Age to look like. That should have been pretty clear when I said that I imagined that to be what Conan's map looked like. Good job at trying to make it look like I didn't think that, and then later agreeing with the premise (but in a way that made it look like it was your idea alone).


Actually, you made it pretty confusing as to what you thought such a "Conan map" would look like. Emanating from the "emic Conan", wouldn't it look like the Younger Dryas?

I believe I've expressed those sentiments (about the "Conan map") long ago, but I'd never try to claim their genesis. I got the idea from Nestor Redondo in the Marvel adaptation of The Phoenix on the Sword. If I was trying to hide your "revelation", why did I quote it in the preceding post? I was simply agreeing with you (or so I thought).

Edited by deuce, 23 April 2011 - 09:42 AM.

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#287 deuce

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 10:32 AM

.

Was there any way for you to engage me without trying to make it look like I was somehow an insecure reader?

Looking at "all the geographic clues from the Conan saga" is exactly what I said I did.

Here's how I weigh the clues on geography:
-Descriptions from within the tales
-Howard's map(s)
-The Hyborian Age

My only conclusion pertaining to my side-experiment that it worked out pretty well. I have re-read the tales that you pointed out. BC works even more perfectly than I remembered.


Really? So Thugra Khotan conquered Shemite cities with what navy? Hyborian mercs weren't shipped in why? The two Khorajan coasts (and the shipping revenues Khoraja would command) were never mentioned because...?


AWSBB doesn't work, since there can't be a Sea in the desert south of Khauran. I won't bother going into detail or bringing up the others tales, since I have a feeling it won't be worth my time.


You wanted feedback. You got it. Now, because gaping holes in your "unconventional theory" are being exposed, it's time to take your marbles home? This is all the resistance your theory could handle? I'm finally beginning to see this "insecure reader" thing you mentioned.

As for Argos and Kush being west of Stygia...what are you even looking at??? On my experimental map, Kush clearly has an arrow pointing south, just as on Howard's map. As far as Argos, the southern part containing Messantia is placed exactly as it is on Howard's map. The only difference is the distortion on each of our maps.[


You haven't made clear what is congruent on the maps. DOES Stygia extend out to Morrocco? Where is the confluence of the Styx and the Sea? Is Zamboula a coastal city?
.

Sorry you didn't see what "purpose" my map served. But I'm even more sorry that "fun" didn't register as a purpose to you. Maybe this forum isn't the place for me.


If "fun" equals throwing Howard's vision of the Hyborian Age out the window, rendering several Conan tales ridiculous and making your own (and "emic Conan's") vision of the HA the "real Hyborian Age", then I guess my "fun" resources are a bit limited. However, from almost the start, you've played all this as having some (possible) serious merit. "Unconventional theories" and all that. You also dragged in "emic Conan" to pinch-hit for you. That takes it past the realm of "fun games".

As far as the suitability of this forum for you, play the " 'V' for 'Victim' " card if you wish. Several years ago, I got tired enough of various irritations that I left for about 3 months. I came back (with no whining about persecution/whatever) because this is the one place on the Net where REH and all of his creations can be discussed with a modicum of civility and knowledge. You haven't been called names or anything similar. You've been disagreed with. If that's out of hand, then don't venture out further into the Interwebs. Believe me: it gets a lot worse (and far more ignorant) than this.





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#288 Halfdane

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 10:45 AM

I never called you an "insecure reader", nor have I thought that.

vs.

this really seems to be all about you and the fact that you can't reconcile Howard's (and Conan's) fictional Hyborian Age


All of this appears to concern your own comfort as a reader


Either we need to keep at this forever and I need to learn to have fun with it; or I need to admit I'll never be able to out-quote you.

I really don't think it's worth my time if I'm going to have to keep explaining and re-explaining things for you. I did ask for feedback, and I thanked you for what you gave me days ago. Everything since then has been a ridiculous mincing of words. Why is this even a thing?

Look at the hierarchy of 'canon' in my last post, where I put clues in the text above The Hyborian Age. Putting a primary emphasis of evaluating those clues is where an emic perspective comes into play. Clues within Conan stories = emic. Clues from omniscienct reference works not intended to be published = etic. And yes, those emic clues only reinforce and are reinforced by Howard's map and The Hyborian Age. I think I've made it clear that's how I view Hyboria. Conan sagas + maps + THA + letters, etc. = CONAN, and our understanding of his world for me (and obviously for you). Hope we're clear.

SEPARATELY, I evaluated those same clues from the text against the Ice Age, while using Howard's map as a reference, but discounting The Hyborian Age. I found it to work astoundingly well in most cases. I only ever said that I did this for fun, not that it should be "taken seriously." Please stop insisting on this.

It was only meant as a curiosity. I haven't seen anything else in this thread or elsewhere with a map of the Last Glacial Maximum.

I'm also not making any declarations, and I'm not trying to change Hyborian geography or trying to shoehorn anything into it. I just took some borders and lay them over a map saying "Look, neat! These correspond pretty well, too!" as a reference of comparison, in the same way that Howard did by superimposing Hyboria over Europe.

#289 theagenes

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Posted 23 April 2011 - 04:34 PM

Halfdane, first of all welcome to the boards. :)

It is fun to try and fit REH's maps and descriptions of the Hyborian world onto Pleistocene maps. You might find it interesting to take a look at some the maps from the early 20th century, when there were some very different ideas being floated about. In particular Howard was likely influenced by some of the Pleistocene maps in H.G. Wells's Outline of History. REH had a copy of Outline in his library and used it as source for a number of stories going all the way back to "Spear and Fang." Wells also dated the formation of the Mediterranean to 30,000 to 10,000 B.C. and has a chapter describing it's creation in very similar terms to REH in "THA" essay. Howard may also have been influenced by the more fanciful maps of theosophist and Atlantis proponent W. Scott-Elliot. In these maps you see a number of familiar features like inland seas, the British isles and Scandinavia attached to the mainland, the Mediterraean not yet created, north western Africa under water, etc. Not perfect matches my any means as REH wasn't just copying these maps, but certainly he seems to have gotten some inspiration from them. I've got a couple of articles coming out this year discussing some of these influences and looking at them really helps give you an insight into Howard's creative process.
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#290 deuce

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 08:07 AM

I never called you an "insecure reader", nor have I thought that.

vs.

this really seems to be all about you and the fact that you can't reconcile Howard's (and Conan's) fictional Hyborian Age


All of this appears to concern your own comfort as a reader


Either we need to keep at this forever and I need to learn to have fun with it; or I need to admit I'll never be able to out-quote you.


I'm not even sure what an "insecure reader" is, let alone accuse you of being one. As I said, you seemed to be "hidebound" (for want of a better term) in the same way as David Drake (whom I respect).

Before I ever led you to (somehow) believe I looked upon you as an "insecure reader", you had this to say about my ownself:


"I wish that you could have at least understood the perspective of trying to approach the topic from an emic rather than an etic position."

I took that at face value. That is, we just couldn't reach an understanding (though I'm quite conversant with the concept). However, I could have taken that quote as meaning I simply didn't have the cognitive wherewithal to meet your mind on such an elevated plane. I chose to give you the benefit of a doubt (as I had before).


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#291 deuce

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 08:11 AM



I really don't think it's worth my time if I'm going to have to keep explaining and re-explaining things for you. I did ask for feedback, and I thanked you for what you gave me days ago. Everything since then has been a ridiculous mincing of words.


Once again, I could take the above quote as an implication that I'm too simple-minded to grasp your "unconventional" concepts. However, I choose to see it as your saying that I'm just not grasping the gist of your "theory" for whatever reason(s).



Why is this even a thing?

Look at the hierarchy of 'canon' in my last post, where I put clues in the text above The Hyborian Age. Putting a primary emphasis of evaluating those clues is where an emic perspective comes into play. Clues within Conan stories = emic. Clues from omniscienct reference works not intended to be published = etic. And yes, those emic clues only reinforce and are reinforced by Howard's map and The Hyborian Age. I think I've made it clear that's how I view Hyboria. Conan sagas + maps + THA + letters, etc. = CONAN, and our understanding of his world for me (and obviously for you). Hope we're clear.

SEPARATELY, I evaluated those same clues from the text against the Ice Age, while using Howard's map as a reference, but discounting The Hyborian Age. I found it to work astoundingly well in most cases. I only ever said that I did this for fun, not that it should be "taken seriously." Please stop insisting on this.

It was only meant as a curiosity. I haven't seen anything else in this thread or elsewhere with a map of the Last Glacial Maximum.

I'm also not making any declarations, and I'm not trying to change Hyborian geography or trying to shoehorn anything into it. I just took some borders and lay them over a map saying "Look, neat! These correspond pretty well, too!" as a reference of comparison, in the same way that Howard did by superimposing Hyboria over Europe.


Why is this a "thing"? Well, from accident or design, your "fun game" became an "unconventional theory" that dragged in "emic Conan" and his map from TPotS. In other words, serious business (in relative terms). Let's look at the progression...



I was especially surprised when Conan's route from Aquilonia to Zingara to Messantia to Khemi in HotD held up. Anyway, I don't mind ignoring "The Hyborian Age", since it was never published; and usually is just a headache to me now. Then again, the maps would be just as suspect for also being unpublished...and even if I ignore THA and go only off of the stories and the maps...there are still one or two things that contradict reality ("SEA" being written over Africa).

Overall I think my theory is sound: Hyborian Age geography (as put forward in Howard's finished stories) can fit into the historical reality of Earth's Last Glacial Maximum.


I suppose my post started as an explanation of something that I did for fun. Now it feels like I've turned it into a challenge. Anybody think they can find quotes within the Conan sagas that contradict Howard's borders on an Ice Age map?



But here's my challenge to the theory that the Hyborian Age was in the late Miocene/early Pliocene:
If the Mediterranean was dry then Africa would really need to be dry, too, for the Salinity Crisis to work. And then if all of Africa and the Mediterranean were dry, where could the Argus sail?


Basically, I'm trying to look at Conan's world as he saw it during his adventures.
I want to know what the map Conan draws at the end of The Scarlet Citadel would look like.

In reading the tales this way -- keeping the "signposts" of geography in mind as I read along -- I only encountered a world that would fit well* with the Last Glacial Maximum.

Thank you for actually taking the time to evaluate my theory, even if only to poke some holes in it. Now I can go back and look at those problem spots. I still hold that it is valid to keep an open mind for new interpretations.

I wish that you could have at least understood the perspective of trying to approach the topic from an emic rather than an etic position. It would be the difference of looking at it as an insider, who lives and breathes in the world;
and an outsider, who is familiar with it through histories, maps, and other second-hand information.


Seems to me one has to be a pretty adventurous reader to put forth unconventional theories here


I never said that I was arguing in favor of my experiment; and in fact only did say that I was seeking arguments against it by asking people to find passages that would deflate it.



There you have it. Your "fun game" became an "unconventional theory" in record time. In short order, "emic Conan" and his mysterious map made an appearance. It was only after you brought up the idea of all this being a "theory" that I chimed in.

If all of this was simply conflation, my apologies, but on the surface it definitely appeared as if you were saying that the way to really read REH's Conan tales was to keep a map of the Last Glacial Maximum in mind/at hand. If you were only doing so as a passing conceit of some sort, why bring in emicism? Why call it a "theory"? Surely you can see how someone might misunderstand your purely trivial/"fun" intent?

On this very thread, Klarkash-Ton (in late 2007) posted his photoshopped renditions of an "LGM Hyborian Age". In many ways, your map is more accurate. Go back and look at my posts in response. In August of 2008, Kortoso posted links to Doggerland as "Cimmeria" on the "Seeking Cimmeria" thread. Once again, I didn't have much to say. Then again, neither claimed to be propounding a revolutionary "unconventional theory".

I hope you don't go flouncing off simply because I've disagreed with you.



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#292 deuce

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 09:07 AM

It is fun to try and fit REH's maps and descriptions of the Hyborian world onto Pleistocene maps. You might find it interesting to take a look at some the maps from the early 20th century, when there were some very different ideas being floated about. In particular Howard was likely influenced by some of the Pleistocene maps in H.G. Wells's Outline of History. REH had a copy of Outline in his library and used it as source for a number of stories going all the way back to "Spear and Fang." Wells also dated the formation of the Mediterranean to 30,000 to 10,000 B.C. and has a chapter describing it's creation in very similar terms to REH in "THA" essay. Howard may also have been influenced by the more fanciful maps of theosophist and Atlantis proponent W. Scott-Elliot. In these maps you see a number of familiar features like inland seas, the British isles and Scandinavia attached to the mainland, the Mediterraean not yet created, north western Africa under water, etc. Not perfect matches my any means as REH wasn't just copying these maps, but certainly he seems to have gotten some inspiration from them. I've got a couple of articles coming out this year discussing some of these influences and looking at them really helps give you an insight into Howard's creative process.
Jeff


Hey Jeff! I, for one, am definitely looking forward to those articles. You've already done some ground-breaking work in that area. There's more material to be mined from that motherlode.

BTW, I found those "off-brand" encyclopedias from 1915. One of the volumes did have pics of Ice Age Britain. Don't know if I still have that one, since I just realized they weren't lost and one with forgotten ages.

As far as the "Dry Med" idea is concerned, it was a fairly common meme, as you say. Manly Wade Wellman's "Hok" tales from the '30s made use of the same concept. In his "Brachen the Kelt" fragment, Howard alludes to a Mediterranean inundation in relatively modern times. If one had to assign a date for that (REH-wise), I would put it at the same time as the Black Sea Deluge:

http://en.wikipedia....a_deluge_theory

While the above theory posits an already inundated Med, for our purposes I believe we can see the BSD as a concurrent spillover from the Mediterranean Inundation (as posited by REH). As to what I believe the trigger for the BSD was in "real" history, check this out:

http://anthropogene....oids-again.html

Don't mess with Mt. Etna.



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#293 theagenes

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Posted 24 April 2011 - 12:47 PM

Hey Jeff! I, for one, am definitely looking forward to those articles. You've already done some ground-breaking work in that area. There's more material to be mined from that motherlode.


Just picking up where our conversations here left off. :) You've already seen the theosophy article in it's draft form, but the polished up version should in an upcoming TDM. THe other project I'm working on is specifically on the creation of the the Hyborian Age. More on that soon.

BTW, I found those "off-brand" encyclopedias from 1915. One of the volumes did have pics of Ice Age Britain. Don't know if I still have that one, since I just realized they weren't lost and one with forgotten ages.

As far as the "Dry Med" idea is concerned, it was a fairly common meme, as you say. Manly Wade Wellman's "Hok" tales from the '30s made use of the same concept. In his "Brachen the Kelt" fragment, Howard alludes to a Mediterranean inundation in relatively modern times.


Absolutely, REH's Med innudation seems to occur at the end of the Neolithic Period. Wells' putting it possibly as late as 10,000 B.C. is probably about as close as you're going to find in contemporary works on the subject. The idea didn't originate with Wells of course - he was just doing a popular survey - so there are certainly other places Howard could have the gotten it from (like those encyclopedias), but we know he had Outline of History in his library (probably one of the 4 vol fourth revised editions from 1922-24, not the 1920 ed. listed in the Bookshelf) and we know he used it quite a bit from Spear and Fang on up. Patrice noted that he practically plagarized from it in the opening of Children of the Night - and that was the part that was the conversion about the migrations during the Neolithic. It was one of his go-to references (along with E.A Allen), that I can imagine him having open on his lap when banging out some of those letters to HPL.

If one had to assign a date for that (REH-wise), I would put it at the same time as the Black Sea Deluge:

http://en.wikipedia....a_deluge_theory


While the above theory posits an already inundated Med, for our purposes I believe we can see the BSD as a concurrent spillover from the Mediterranean Inundation (as posited by REH). As to what I believe the trigger for the BSD was in "real" history, check this out:

http://anthropogene....oids-again.html

Don't mess with Mt. Etna.


One of my professor's at FSU was the underwater archaeologist on Ballard's Black Sea expedition in the late 90's (nowadays, Ballard always takes a token archaeologist along so that he can't be accused of being a looter). She didn't have many kind things to say about him, which I thought was unfortunate as Ballard was always one of my heroes when I was a kid. I think it was just a clash of egos. Anyway, there is no doubt that there are submerged Neolithic sites in the near shore environment in the Black Sea. The question is when and how fast did they become submerged. So far there is no real evidence or a convincing mechanism for an extremely rapid innundation but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. I would suggest that even if the innundation took place over a few years, if it forced settled people to have to pick up and move fairly rapidly the event could have made it into folk memory, particularly if you had important sacred sites associated with the habitations areas that were then underwater. Just speculation though.

The Etna thing is interesting - a Neolithic Thera? My first thought was what would have been the effect on the contempory culture on Malta? Food for thought.

Just for fun here is one one of Wells' maps:

Posted Image
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#294 deuce

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Posted 25 April 2011 - 10:47 AM

[You've already seen the theosophy article in it's draft form, but the polished up version should in an upcoming TDM. THe other project I'm working on is specifically on the creation of the the Hyborian Age. More on that soon.


Cool!

The Etna thing is interesting - a Neolithic Thera? My first thought was what would have been the effect on the contempory culture on Malta? Food for thought.

Just for fun here is one one of Wells' maps:

Posted Image


As far as Malta is concerned, the structures there are obviously (in a Howardian sense) remnants of the Picts. Regarding Etna, what if the inundation set it off, which then started the Black Sea Event? Just trying to keep things "real". That Wells map is too cool. It's probably been 20yrs since I saw a version of it in the flesh.



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#295 Boot

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Posted 09 May 2011 - 04:32 AM

If you have suggestions on placements of cities not on the map that are found in the original Conan stories written by Howard, with reasoning as to their placement let me know.


Fantasic map. Suggest you make a version with less "typing" on it. Remove about 2/3 of the location entries, and it will be easier to see both the old world and the new. I think too much of the site locations are distracting and cluttering the map, especially around the Pictish Wilderness.

If you're ambitious, maybe make smaller area, more detailed maps? Or, better yet, use a "zoom out - zoom in" function where detail appears and disappears at a turn of the mouse roller?

#296 Amra_the_Lion

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Posted 06 June 2011 - 10:44 PM

If you're ambitious, maybe make smaller area, more detailed maps? Or, better yet, use a "zoom out - zoom in" function where detail appears and disappears at a turn of the mouse roller?


Excellent ideas. If only I knew how to do it. I would love the zoom function you mention but haven't the foggiest idea of how to make it happen.

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#297 Ironhand

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 11:02 AM

Just take Google Earth and set it for 12,000 BC. ;)
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
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#298 Kortoso

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Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:37 PM

Just take Google Earth and set it for 12,000 BC. ;)


Lolzers! :D

#299 Bingam Vici

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Posted 09 June 2011 - 03:40 PM

I know that many people draw the map of Hyboria, but how many maps was drawn only Robert? 3? In 1932? later in 1932? and in 1936? or not?

#300 Fernando

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 12:38 AM

I know that many people draw the map of Hyboria, but how many maps was drawn only Robert? 3? In 1932? later in 1932? and in 1936? or not?


Exactly, Bingam Vici. :) REH did 3 maps of Hyborian Age. The first two ones in 1932 - published in The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian -, and the 3rd in 1936 - published in "The Conquering Sword of Conan". Hope that helps. :)