Jump to content


Photo

Maps of Hyborian Age Earth


  • Please log in to reply
421 replies to this topic

#261 Kane

Kane

    The Dark Prometheus

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,327 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Columbus, OH. USA

Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:15 AM

That is a damn good world map!
"I vanquished Law once, I'll conquer yet again--
And force upon Mankind the Freedom he fears--
And dead gods I will again defy?"

#262 elegos7

elegos7

    Warrior

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 142 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hungary

Posted 05 January 2011 - 09:52 AM

Hi Amra,

Congratulations to your map attempt, this seems to be the best one based on REH's writings.

I only had a quick glance, but let me add a few comments:
- I especially like your detailed rendering of the countries south of Stygia
- there is one certain mistake: the Isle of the Black Ones lies much further to the west. The Wastrel needed several weeks to reach it. It lies probably somewhere around today's Caribbean.
- Gazal is misspelled as "Galzal"
- Dale Rippke placed the Zaporoska River to the west of the Vilayet, you place it to the east. Can you explain it?
- Also, what is the basis for the placement of cities in Shem? E.g. Why is Akbitana placed to the seaside? The resurrected Thugra Khotan from Kutchemes slept in Akbitana while he threatened Yasmela in Khoraja. So it makes sense that Akbitana was somewhere in Eastern Shem. I also miss Asgalun (Askalon?).

So I would highly appreciate some explanation for your placement of several uncertain locations.

I hope that with additional contributions from Taranaich, Dale and others you can make this map even more precise.

Edited by elegos7, 05 January 2011 - 10:02 AM.


#263 Taranaich

Taranaich

    Metal Barbarian Dinosaur

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,932 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Bleak Moors of Scotland

Posted 05 January 2011 - 10:07 AM

Excellent work, Amra!

A few questions & comments:

- The country boundaries are a bit different from Howard's map: was this to better fit geography or projection?
- Why did you place Tombalku in Kush, as opposed to making it its own sovereign country/empire?
- Why did you place the Zaporoska River on the eastern side of the Vilayet?
- Why did you place Zamboula so far south?
- The Wastrel's journey to the Isle of the Black Ones was "many weary weeks" to the west: I can't see it being as close as Madeira without being visited more often. For comparison, Columbus' sailing time to the Bahamas - which used caracks, the same type of ship as the Wastrel - was only five weeks, when one subtracts their month-long stay in the Canaries. The Isle of the Black Ones is thus most likely to be much further, possibly the Bahamas themselves, or some now-lost island near them.
- You seem to have caused a time paradox, and called Zembabwei "Zimbabwe" :P
- You place the Pelishtim really far inward. Surely the Pelishtim would be nearer the coast, considering Conan spent time in Asgalun after his ship was wrecked off the coast of Shem?
- Is there any particular reason you didn't extend the coastlines of Vendhya and Khitai, just to reflect the western land rises of the Eurasian continent? Similarly, why did you sink Madagascar?
- If Akbitana is as far west as you place it, then either Akbatana and Akbitana are separate places, or Natohk managed to conquer the whole of Shem!

I realise it's a first stab, but it's still very good. Better than Mongoose's most recent map in terms of accuracy, that's for sure.

Robert E. Howard, 1906 - 2006

Sword & Sorcery! Posted Image Posted Image Historical Fiction!
Horror! Posted Image Posted Image Westerns!
Boxing! Posted Image Posted Image Conan!


#264 Amra_the_Lion

Amra_the_Lion

    Free Companion Mercenary Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States of America

Posted 05 January 2011 - 10:03 PM

Well I have had a sick kid for two days and while he is resting I have been working on this, mostly at night after he goes back to sleep after being cleaned up (bath and new pajamas, bed clothes because he vomited in his bed) and then I am awake. So in my semi wakefulness and sleep deprived state I started this project.

Originally it was an entire world map including the Americas. I had to crop it severely, because of size (at this point it is still 2.0 MB and 1964×1529 pixels of resolution). At the larger size I was losing quality trying to save it as a Gif for the web and photobucket kept resizing it as it was too large and I did not want to upgrade to their pro service. I ended up going to DeviantArt to post it because of the size. I was going to crop Asia as well but I liked the mountains so much I left it. I did not sink or raise any land yet in the far east as I had not yet carefully re-read The Hyborian Age to gather clues as to what to do. I sank Madagascar on a whim as it is usually not included in maps of the Hyborian Age (check me out relying on pastiche for a guide! Yikes!).

The Island of the Black Ones is a victim to resizing having been cut and pasted closer to still fit on the map. I meant to have an arrow pointing further in the Western Sea (I just realized there is not a moniker for said sea on the map) to indicate its proper placement, and I had not really even thought of real world sailing ships travel time from 5 weeks to 2 months crossing the Atlantic during my insomniacal cartography craze.

The only differences from Howard's border shapes of the western nations is that in trying to place them similarly I found I could not because the map Howard was using of Europe was not very accurate (or maybe mine isn't) and I was forced to squeeze in places to have the borders enter into the geography at the same places. In regards to the Pictish Wilderness I decided to go with the underlying continental shelf as its boundary.

My brain was hurting and my eyes were closing and I did not bother to read up on each city in the story for clues to placement, therefore most were placed arbitrarily and at random. The Shemitish cities were placed arbitrarily based on this comment, without further research.

"the Shemitish cities of the west, Pelishtim, Anakim, Akkharim,..." –A Witch Shall Be Born


As to the placement of Zamboula:

Zamboula should be about where the "d" in Eastern Desert is according to Howard's own map.


I believe Dale is referring to the Mongoose Map. Making his placement of Zamboula somewhere near the modern Baghdad of Iraq.

Mongoose Map

But Howard's maps he is referring to shows otherwise. On Howard's 1936 map there is an arrow pointing south "To ZAMboula" at the bottom of the map south of the outline of the modern Black Sea, almost directly below in a straight line from Khauran; west of the eastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. That is coupled with Howard's 1932 rough map showing Stygia extending nearly to the eastern edge of the outline of the modern Mediterranean Sea, past where Howard's Arrow indicates Zamboula should be. I felt that Zamboula was not in Stygia as it is the westernmost outpost of Turan so I placed it beneath it. I kinda like its proximity to Darfar and its implication of ease being the reason for so many Darfari slaves in the city.

"Here, centuries ago, the armies of Stygia had come, carving an empire out of the eastern desert. Zamboula was but a small trading town then, lying amidst a ring of oases, and inhabited by descendants of nomads. The Stygians built it into a city and settled it with their own people, and with Shemite and Kushite slaves. The ceaseless caravans, threading the desert from east to west and back again, brought riches and more mingling of races. Then came the conquering Turanians, riding out of the East to thrust back the boundaries of Stygia, and now for a generation Zamboula had been Turan's western-most out-post, ruled by a Turanian Satrap." - The Man-Eaters of Zamboula

Zamboula cannot be in the steppes west of the Vilayet Sea as the western-most out-post of Turan if the Turanian empire has already expanded because Howard says that Turan extends to the borders of Zamora on the 1936 map. Zamboula according to that map if one drew a straight line north to south would be west of the borders of Zamora. Howard says that Zamboula is in the eastern deserts meaning east of Stygia, look at his map and see where he places those deserts to the south of the Vilayet Sea outside the border of the Lands of Shem and its deserts and nomads which runs down the east side of Stygia. In placing it where I have it is definitely the western-most out-post of Turan west of the expanded border with Zamora and not in the Shemitish desert with a boundary line for Shem on the 1936 map that Rippke seems to have not noticed based on his own. To keep Zamboula in line with Khauran and the middle of the modern Black Sea and still be east of Stygia and not be in the Shemitish deserts I could see no where else to place it.

1936 Map 11936 Map 2

If I escaped with only the one misspelling of Gazal as Galzal I think I got off pretty lucky. Zimbabwe was spelled that way because of the spelling in the quote from the Hyborian Age that I had in a previous post. It will need to be changed of course to represent the spelling in the story of The Servants of Bit-Yakin.

"South of Stygia are the vast black kingdoms of the Amazons, the Kushites, the Atlaians, and the hybrid empire of Zimbabwe." -REH in The Hyborian Age

"Thutmekri came to Keshan at the head of an embassy from Zembabwei." - The Servants of Bit-Yakin

I thought Kordafan sounded more like a city than a country or kingdom in The Shumballa Fragment. Used kinda like Parisian is for a person from Paris. It really could go either way i.e. the Russian from Russia. It is not mentioned in the Draft.

"...a dusky adventurer from Kordafan." - The Shumballa Fragment

"The frenzied mob tore the Kordafan to pieces..." - The Shumballa Fragment

I probably need to get rid of the tribal names in Kush as they are speculatively placed anyways, and clutter it up.

I definitely need to get rid of Punt in Kush as it is a neighborhood only and not a city in itself with the other neighborhood being El Shebbeh where the Chagas rule the entire city of Shumballa.


I made Tombalku a city as opposed to its own sovereign country/empire because it is mentioned as such.

"They were the riders of Tombalku, that semi-mythical desert city whose kings had subjugated the tribes of the southwestern desert and the ne gro races of the steppes. Conan had been knocked senseless and carried to the distant city to be exhibited to the kings of Tombalku." - The Tombalku Synopsis

"In three days they reached Tombalku, a strange fantastic city set in the sands of the desert, beside an oasis of many springs." - The Tombalku Synopsis

"They decided to carry me to their city instead of killing me out of hand." - The Tombalku Draft

"Well, they bound be on a horse without a saddle, and we went to Tombalku." - The Tombalku Draft

"Several centuries ago the Aphaki, a Shemitish race, pushed into the southern desert and established the kingdom of Tombalku. - The Tombalku Draft

Even though they have subjugated roaming tribes and likely have influence over an area, I think Tombalku is a city/state much like the Corinthian one in Rogues in the House.


Now to the Zaporoska River:

Conan rowed a boat from the mouth of the Zaporoska River to the Isle of Xapur; it's about five hundred miles apart on this map.

Olivia SWAM from Khawarizm to Xapur in less than an hour; once again that's around 500 miles!

Conan rowed a boat overnight from the mouth of the Ilbars River to the Isle of Iron Statues. He made good time, since this map shows it to be nearly 700 miles!


Dale thinks in The Devil in Iron that Olivia swam from Khawarizm when it is clear from the story she escaped the castle at Fort Ghori to start her journey, riding all night on a horse to the swampy borders of the Vilayet. It is clear that it was not in Khawarizm or she would have been escaping from the palace of Jehungir Agha, in Khawarizm, not Jelal Khan's castle at Fort Ghori. Outside the fort, in pavilions, camp was made for the parley, and likely not trusting the Kozaks the Hyrkanians retired to the Castle when the parley was concluded to not have their throats slit in their tents.

"Octavia's resilient flesh crawled and quivered at her memories. Desperation had nerved her climb from Jelal Khan's castle on a rope made of strips from torn tapestries, and chance had led her to a picketed horse. She had ridden all night, and dawn found her with a foundered steed on the swampy shores of the sea." - The Devil in Iron

"We will ask for a parley with the kozaks in regard to prisoners, at the edge of the steppes by Fort Ghori. As usual, we will go with a force and encamp outside the castle." - The Devil in Iron

"A vagrant thought crossed her mind as she climbed, in which she mentally compared her former master with the kozak chief with whom--by compulsion--she had shamefully flirted in the pavillions of the camp by Fort Ghori, where the Hyrkanian lords had parleyed with the warriors of the steppes."- The Devil in Iron

"He went silently in his soft leather boots, his gaze sifting every shadow in eagerness to catch sight of the splendid, tawny-haired beauty of whom he had dreamed ever since he had seen her in the pavilion of Jehungir Agha by Fort Ghori." - The Devil in Iron

"'You seemed to think so in the camp by Ghori,' he answered." - The Devil in Iron


"Furthermore, The Devil in Iron relates that the role of the governor of Khawarizm is to "guard the frontier". This implies that the city is near the outer border of Turan, not near the heavily settled center of the nation. When Octavia escapes from Khawarizm, she steals a horse, rides all night to the edge of the sea, and swims out to Xapur. So Khawarizm isn't on the sea coast, and it isn't all that far from Conan's war camp on the Zaporoska River, either." - Rippke in the Darkstorm Files

"Jehungir Agha, lord of Khawarizm and keeper of the coastal border, scanned once more the ornate parchment scroll with its peacock seal and laughed shortly and sardonically." - The Devil in Iron

Dale thinks Khawarizm is to the west of the Vilayet near the outer border of Turan possibly in the Steppes near Shem. I think it is on the coastal border near the southern part of of the Vilayet with the Steppes to the east of it heading towards the main and separate kingdom of Hyrkania (Turan is a Hyrkanian colony establishing itself as a kingdom).

Oh yeah what were we talking about? That's right the Zaporoska River. There are five references to it.

"Their war camp is at present pitched somewhere on the lower reaches of the Zaporoska River--which, as you well know, is a wilderness of reeds, a swampy jungle in which our last expedition was cut to pieces by those masterless devils." - The Devil in Iron

"He wheeled to race back through the jungle, down the carven stair and across the blue waters to the distant camp at the mouth of the Zaporoska." - The Devil in Iron

"If I could come down from this beam I'd make a dying dog out of you, you Zaporoskan thief!" - A Witch Shall Be Born

"Aye! and once a hetman of the kozaki of the Zaporoskan River, as you have guessed. Would you like to live?" - A Witch Shall Be Born

“’I saw again the battlefield whereon I was born,’ said Conan, resting his chin moodily on a massive fist. ‘I saw myself in a pantherskin loin-clout, throwing my spear at the mountain beasts. I was a mercenary swordsman again, a hetman of the kozaki who dwell along the Zaporoska River, a corsair looting the coasts of Kush, a pirate of the Barachan Isles, a chief of the Himelian hillmen. All these things I’ve been, and of all these things I dreamed; all the shapes that have been I passed like an endless procession, and their feet beat out a dirge in the sounding dust.’” – The Hour of the Dragon

Well here is what Dale has to say about it from those five quotes:

"The next step in mapping Turan is to define the course of the two major Turanian rivers; the Ilbars River from Iron Shadows in the Moon and the Zaporoska River from The Devil in Iron. From the stories it appears that the Zaporoska is the southernmost river and the Ilbars lies to the north of it." - Rippke in the Darkstorm Files

"Examining the internal evidence from The Devil in Iron does show the Zaporoska as emptying into the southern Vilayet, but from the Turanian side." - Rippke in the Darkstorm Files

"The Devil in Iron shows that Howard placed the Yuetshi homeland as being 'along the southern shore of the Sea of Vilayet since time immemorial'. He also describes the area around Xapur; 'The adjacent coast of the mainland was uninhabited, a reedy marsh given over to the grim beasts that haunted it. The (Yuetshi) fisher's village lay some distance to the south, on the mainland. A storm had blown his frail fishing craft far from his accustomed haunts, and wrecked it in a night of flaring lightning...' So what this tells me is that the isle of Xapur lies to the north of the southern edge of the Vilayet, adjacent to either the western or eastern coast. While it is described as laying 'some distance' and 'far' from Yuetshi lands, it can really only be as far away as a small boat can be blown over the course of a single night. So it possibly lies within a hundred miles of the northern end of the Yuetshi homeland, but it is much more realistic to place it within fifty miles. Howard describes the lower reaches of the Zaporoska River as a 'wilderness of reeds' and a 'swampy jungle'. The 'reedy marsh' adjacent to Xapur is the same area as 'the lower reaches of the Zaporoska', since Conan was set to flee from the isle 'across the blue waters to the distant camp at the mouth of the Zaporoska'." - Rippke in the Darkstorm Files

"Howard describes the Kozaki raiders as a force that bedevils the western frontiers of Turan: "On the broad steppes between the Sea of Vilayet and borders of the easternmost Hyborian kingdoms, a new race had sprung up in the past half-century…” It is important to note that Howard describes the location of the Kozaki in two stories: The Devil in Iron and Iron Shadows in the Moon. Both stories place these brigands in the same location; along the western borders of Turan. There is not one mention of the Kozaki either to the south or the east of the Sea of Vilayet. The site of Conan’s war camp seems ideally placed as an interface between the Kozaki to the west and the Hyrkanian pirates he deals with on the sea to the east. Textually, it seems reasonably certain that the Zaporoska River empties into the southern reaches of the Vilayet that lies within the land of Turan." - Rippke in the Darkstorm Files

"I would make part of the southwestern shore of the Vilayet below Aghrapur another massive swampland; placing the estuary of the Zaporoska River in the center of it, adjacent to the Isle of Xapur and directly to the north of the city of Khawarizm. I would make its source be the eastern uplands of Koth (it’s the river that Conan observes while crucified on the cross that forms the southern boundary of Khauran) and its watercourse would roughly parallel the southern edge of the steppes, beyond which lies the southwestern desert lands. I would place Khawarizm on the coastal plains southwest of the swamp, near the edge of the desert. Fort Ghori lies to the northwest of the city, on the edge of the steppes. The Yuetshi homeland would lie to the south of the swamplands, in the coastal wastelands outside of Turan’s borders. The other two major Turanian cities lie outside of the nation’s official borders; Zamboula in the Kharamun Desert and Khorusun in Hyrkania." - Rippke in the Darkstorm Files

Rippke Blue East Map

Well I agree that the Yuetshi villages are on the southern coast and can't fault his reasoning on how far Xapur is based on how far a fishing boat can be blown overnight. We know that the Zaporoska and the swamps are nearby within riding distance from Fort Ghori but there is no evidence as to which side of the Vilayet west or east. However because I believe Khawarizm is on the coastal border of the Vilayet between Turan and Hyrkania and that the Kozak inhabit the steppes outside of Turanian borders I think Xapur is on the eastern coast.

On Howard's 1936 map "Kozaks" is placed to the north of Turan in the Steppes on the western side of the Vilayet adjacent to Brythunia. There is no mention of them on the 1932 maps because neither Iron Shadows in the Moon (Apr 1934), The Devil in Iron (Aug 1934), and A Witch Shall Be Born (Dec 1934) had not yet been written when they were drawn they were published in 1934. Indeed the Kozaks did raid the western steppes in Koth, Zamora and Turan in Iron Shadows of the Moon.

The band of Kozaks from Iron Shadows in the Moon were destroyed in that story.

“’Who are you?’ she asked. ‘Shah Amurath called you a Kozak; were you of that band?’ ‘I am Conan, of Cimmeria,’ he grunted. ‘I was with the kozaki, as the Hyrkanian dogs called us.’” – Iron Shadows in the Moon

Instead of being a Kozak proper born on the steppes, he is one of the Free Companions a mercenary army. Who Shah Amurath compares nominally to the Kozaki who also raid Turan and are made up of similar men. The Free Companions probably comprise one part of the Kozaki the Free People.

“I was one of those dissolute rogues, the Free Companions, who burned and looted along the borders. There were five thousand of us, from a score of races and tribes. We had been serving as mercenaries for a rebel prince in eastern Koth, most of us, and when he made peace with his cursed sovereign, we were out of employment; so we took to plundering the outlying dominions of Koth, Zamora and Turan impartially. A week ago Shah Amurath trapped us near the banks of Ilbars with fifteen thousand men. Mitra! The skies were black with vultures, When the lines broke, after a whole day of fighting, some tried to break through to the north, some to the west. I doubt if any escaped. The steppes were covered with horsemen riding down the fugitives. I broke for the east, and finally reached the edge of the marshes that border this part of the Vilayet.” – Iron Shadows in the Moon

The main body of the Kozaks was also west of the sea of Vilayet and the east of Hyborian kingdoms 50 years ago.

“On the broad steppes, between the sea of Vilayet and the borders of the easternmost Hyborian kingdoms, a new race had sprung up in the past half-century, formed originally of fleeing criminals, broken men, escaped slaves, and deserting soldiers. They were men of many crimes and countries, some born on the steppes, some fleeing from the kingdoms in the west. They were called kozak, which means wastrel.
Dwelling on the wild, open steppes, owning no law but their own peculiar code, they had become a people capable even of defying the Grand Monarch. Ceaselessly they raided the Turanian frontier, retiring in the steppes when defeated; with the pirates of Vilayet, men of much the same breed, they harried the coast, preying off the merchant ships which plied between the Hyrkanian ports.” – The Devil in Iron

I think that after the broad defeat in Iron Shadows in the Moon of the Free Companions the main body of the Kozaks was forced to retreat to the eastern steppes between Hyrkania and the Vilayet from the ever expanding Turanian empire as evidenced by the 1936 map "Turan (LaTer ExTended To Borders of zamora)" there would be no room for Kozaks on the western steppes.

1936 Map 11936 Map 2

By the time of The Devil in Iron Turan is described as quite the empire.

"Yezdigerd, king of Turan, was the mightiest monarch in the world. In his palace in the great port city of Aghrapur was heaped the plunder of empires. His fleets of purple-sailed war galleys had made Vilayet an Hyrkanian lake. The dark-skinned people of Zamora paid him tribute, as did the eastern provinces of Koth. The Shemites bowed to his rule as far west as Shushan. His armies ravaged the borders of Stygia in the south and the snowy lands of the Hyperboreans in the north. His riders bore torch and sword westward into Brythunia and Ophir and Corinthia, even to the borders of Nemedia. His gilt-helmeted swordsmen had trampled hosts under their horses' hoofs, and walled cities went up in flames at his command." - The Devil in Iron

I think the reason on the 1936 map that the Kozaks are present on the western side of the Vilayet and Turan has yet to expand even though The Devil in Iron had been published in 1934 is that Howard was responding to Miller and Clarke with a map that was an updated version of the 1932 maps he had to show them how closely their own map had approximated his own previous maps. He still qualified that Turan would expand having written of it in The Devil in Iron.

I also like placing Fort Ghori somewhat near the region of Ghor from Afghulistan.

"I was riding for Ghor!" he roared. "I had not hoped to meet you dogs on the trail. Follow me as fast as your nags can push! I'm going to Yimsha, and--" - The People of the Black Circle

"When they heard the Wazuli's tale, they returned with all haste to Ghor, and we saddled our steeds and girt our swords!" - The People of the Black Circle

"How that one man escaped, I do not know, nor did he; but I knew from his maunderings that Conan of Ghor had been in Khurum with his royal captive." - The People of the Black Circle

"Are you a magician, that you have conquered the Black Seers of Yimsha, Conan of Ghor?" - The People of the Black Circle

So now I have a chance to go back to the stories research the cities as to their placements, with your encouragement and suggestions. Let's put our heads together and make the best map we can.

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 23 September 2011 - 08:13 PM.

If life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. Queen of the Black Coast 1934 Robert E. Howard

 

Amra's The Chronicles of Conan The Cimmerian: Determining the chronological order of Howard's Conan Tales


#265 Kortoso

Kortoso

    -=Reiver of the Western Marches=-

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,400 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 05 January 2011 - 10:29 PM

The only differences from Howard's border shapes of the western nations is that in trying to place them similarly I found I could not because the map Howard was using of Europe was not very accurate (or maybe mine isn't) and I was forced to squeeze in places to have the borders enter into the geography at the same places. In regards to the Pictish Wilderness I decided to go with the underlying continental shelf as its boundary.


It was accurate; maybe a different projection (Mercator?) from the one you are using?

#266 Amra_the_Lion

Amra_the_Lion

    Free Companion Mercenary Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States of America

Posted 05 January 2011 - 10:38 PM


The only differences from Howard's border shapes of the western nations is that in trying to place them similarly I found I could not because the map Howard was using of Europe was not very accurate (or maybe mine isn't) and I was forced to squeeze in places to have the borders enter into the geography at the same places. In regards to the Pictish Wilderness I decided to go with the underlying continental shelf as its boundary.


It was accurate; maybe a different projection (Mercator?) from the one you are using?


Well let me reword that, Howard was probably working from an accurate map and transferred the map to his own, hand drawing the outline of Europe. It is accurate but not very detailed and he probably didn't have a light table let alone a computer to work with. I agree we are probably using different types of maps mine being a Mercator projection, I wonder if he was looking at a globe or Mollweide projection. Now we just need Rusty Burke to help us know what kind of maps, globes, or atlases Howard may have had in his office or on his bookshelf.

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 05 January 2011 - 10:53 PM.

If life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. Queen of the Black Coast 1934 Robert E. Howard

 

Amra's The Chronicles of Conan The Cimmerian: Determining the chronological order of Howard's Conan Tales


#267 Amra_the_Lion

Amra_the_Lion

    Free Companion Mercenary Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States of America

Posted 06 January 2011 - 12:20 AM

An additional thought on the Zaporoska River:

?The southwestern shore is held by the Hyrkanians for hundreds of miles. We still have a long way to go before we pass beyond their northern boundaries. I intend to go northward, until I think we have passed them. Then we?ll turn westward, and try to land on the shore bordered by the uninhabited steppes.? ? Iron Shadows in the Moon

Conan says this in the marshes near the terminus of Ilbars River where he fled from the western steppes where the Ilbars crosses the steppes.

"The Steppes were covered with horsemen riding down the fugitives. I broke for the east, and finally reached the edge of the marshes that border this part of Vilayet." - Iron Shadows in the Moon

"No Yuetshi had come to Xapur for a century. The adjacent coast of the mainland was uninhabited, a reedy marsh given over to the grim beasts that haunted it. The fisher's village lay some distance to the south, on the mainland." - The Devil in Iron

It seems unlikely that the Zaporoska River would be on the southwestern shore as it is inhabited by the Hyrkanian Turanians for hundreds of miles. Fort Ghori is within riding distance overnight to reach the coast of the Vilayet Sea (probably further up the river) and from there it is not far from the marshes where the Zaporoska reaches the Sea and the island of Xapur.

I think it is more likely that Fort Ghori, the Kozak base camp on the Zaporoska, and Xapur are on the eastern side of the Vilayet in an uninhabited area governed by a Fort not a major sea port like Aghrapur, past the borders of Turan on the eastern steppes where the Kozak hide after their raids, than on the west coast held by the Turanians.

"We will not await him on the island, where we might be trapped ourselves, but among the reeds of a marshy point which juts out to within a thousand yards of Xapur." - The Devil in Iron

That still makes it quite the swim for Olivia.

If life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. Queen of the Black Coast 1934 Robert E. Howard

 

Amra's The Chronicles of Conan The Cimmerian: Determining the chronological order of Howard's Conan Tales


#268 johnnypt

johnnypt

    WarLord

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,699 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 January 2011 - 02:41 AM

Excellent corollary to the chronology! My impressions and questions follow along with elegos and Taranaich in some ways. There are certain placements that if shifted counterclockwise a little might fit better. I'm also not sure Zamboula is that far south (it also leaves open the question where exactly is the eastern border of Shem? It's different on just about every map!) I think Tombalku, Shumballa and the Bamulas are a little further south and inland, Xuthal and Xuchtol are also further south into far more isolated territory, Keshan and Punt may be a little smaller and a little northward (not sure Alkmeenon is that far south), I got the impression they were somewhat closer to the rest of the Hyborian world though not in the direct Kush-Darfar-Keshan-Punt line as earlier maps have it. The problem with everything south of Stygia is that Howard himself was somewhat vague as he said in the Miller letter and unlike a lot of the other territories he said were undefined, a lot happens down there. As far as the Zaporoska, I don't think it's that far north, but it's definitely not on the same side as the Ilbars. Maybe have it almost directly at the southern end closer to the Zuagir territory. Everything is so well documented I almost hate to question them! But lots here to ponder...

Edited by johnnypt, 06 January 2011 - 02:43 AM.


#269 Amra_the_Lion

Amra_the_Lion

    Free Companion Mercenary Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States of America

Posted 06 January 2011 - 04:41 AM

Excellent corollary to the chronology! My impressions and questions follow along with elegos and Taranaich in some ways. There are certain placements that if shifted counterclockwise a little might fit better. I'm also not sure Zamboula is that far south (it also leaves open the question where exactly is the eastern border of Shem? It's different on just about every map!) I think Tombalku, Shumballa and the Bamulas are a little further south and inland, Xuthal and Xuchtol are also further south into far more isolated territory, Keshan and Punt may be a little smaller and a little northward (not sure Alkmeenon is that far south), I got the impression they were somewhat closer to the rest of the Hyborian world though not in the direct Kush-Darfar-Keshan-Punt line as earlier maps have it. The problem with everything south of Stygia is that Howard himself was somewhat vague as he said in the Miller letter and unlike a lot of the other territories he said were undefined, a lot happens down there. As far as the Zaporoska, I don't think it's that far north, but it's definitely not on the same side as the Ilbars. Maybe have it almost directly at the southern end closer to the Zuagir territory. Everything is so well documented I almost hate to question them! But lots here to ponder...


Thanks Johnypt, Kane, elegos7, and Taranaich. I have tried to answer the questions in the posts above. I am pretty set with Zamboula based on Howard's maps. The eastern border of Shem is shown on all three of Howard's maps the 1932 Rough, 1932 Finished, and the 1936 map without changing all that much. The question is what happens off of those maps (south)? As the deserts of Shem are shone to continue south as does the border parallel to the eastern deserts.

Tombalku, Shumballa, and any of the tribal names can all be moved around as they are arbitrarily placed and would not be bad further inland. I just don't want them too far inland to interfere with the treks south of the Tlazitlans from Lake Zuad (roughly where modern Lake Chad is) enroute to Xuchotl, Conan and Valeria's trek from Sukhmet south to Xuchotl, and Conan and Natala's trek south from Stygia to Xuthal, and Conan and Amalric's trek south from Stygia to Tombalku as none of the above adventures mention them running into them.

Keshan and Punt may be smaller and it wouldn't matter much. The reason Keshan is as long as it is is that I am trying to satisfy that it is in the hinterlands of Kush (meaning lands behind the coast) and still extend to as far as the eastern edge of the modern Black Sea if a line was drawn straight south of that as Howard indicates Keshan on the 1936 map. Alkmeenon is mentioned as being in the southwest corner of Keshan. Keshan as a hinterland is claimed by the coastal land of Kush and I view it as part of the vast kingdom of Kush.

The Zaporoska could be moved a little further south but not much as I believe it is close; within a days' ride of the Xapur from Fort Ghori that is nearby the Kozak camps on that river, and Xapur has to be some distance from the Yuetshi as the fisherman was blown "some distance" away from his normal fishing grounds near his village on the southern coasts of the Vilayet. The actual placements of the rivers is pretty arbitrary as to location as long as the Ilbars is on the western side near the port city of Aghrapur, and near Akif, and the Zaporoska is on the eastern side near the southern end.

The Thunder River and The Black River were also arbitrarily placed but I thought it was fun to place them along the borders of the Westermarck. The other rivers in and out of Aquilonia need to be fiddled with, I have not yet really delved into the literature to support their placement. I placed The River Zarkheba (the river of death) with its poisonous waters near where the modern Congo River would be and chuckled as I linked it to the underground river beneath Alkmeenon that connects to the lake in Punt (modern Lake Victoria) where the Puntans throw their dead possibly giving a partial reason for the polluted and non potable water.

“I’ve always known there was a subterranean river flowing away from the lake where the people of the Puntish highlands throw their dead.” - The Servants of Bit-Yakin

"'This is the river Zarkheba, which is Death,' said Bêlit. 'Its waters are posionous. See how dark and murky they run?'" - The Queen of the Black Coast

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 07 January 2011 - 02:14 AM.

If life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. Queen of the Black Coast 1934 Robert E. Howard

 

Amra's The Chronicles of Conan The Cimmerian: Determining the chronological order of Howard's Conan Tales


#270 elegos7

elegos7

    Warrior

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 142 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hungary

Posted 06 January 2011 - 09:30 AM

Hi Amra,

Thanks for your answer. You have convinced me concerning the position of the Zaporoska River.

I discovered another minor mistake: based on REH's letter Kush should be the northern-most black kingdom (as Dale has placed it in his map). So perhaps you should move Darfar a little more to the south.

Concerning Kush, however, it is one of the black kingdoms south of Stygia, the northern-most, in fact, and has given its name to the whole southern coast. Thus, when an Hyborian speaks of Kush, he is generally speaking of not the kingdom itself, one of many such kingdoms, but of the Black Coast in general. And he is likely to speak of any black man as a Kushite, whether he happens to be a Keshani, Darfari, Puntan, or Kushite proper.

#271 Taranaich

Taranaich

    Metal Barbarian Dinosaur

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,932 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Bleak Moors of Scotland

Posted 06 January 2011 - 02:26 PM

Good stuff, Amra! Personally, I think Zamboula would be slightly further north, about half the distance it is now south of Kuthchemes.

Robert E. Howard, 1906 - 2006

Sword & Sorcery! Posted Image Posted Image Historical Fiction!
Horror! Posted Image Posted Image Westerns!
Boxing! Posted Image Posted Image Conan!


#272 Amra_the_Lion

Amra_the_Lion

    Free Companion Mercenary Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States of America

Posted 07 January 2011 - 05:13 AM

I revised the map again.

Posted Image

If you have suggestions on placements of cities not on the map that are found in the original Conan stories written by Howard, with reasoning as to their placement let me know.

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 12 January 2011 - 06:31 PM.

If life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. Queen of the Black Coast 1934 Robert E. Howard

 

Amra's The Chronicles of Conan The Cimmerian: Determining the chronological order of Howard's Conan Tales


#273 Amra_the_Lion

Amra_the_Lion

    Free Companion Mercenary Veteran

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 648 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:United States of America

Posted 12 January 2011 - 07:16 PM

Excellent work, Amra!

- Is there any particular reason you didn't extend the coastlines of Vendhya and Khitai, just to reflect the western land rises of the Eurasian continent?

I realise it's a first stab, but it's still very good. Better than Mongoose's most recent map in terms of accuracy, that's for sure.


"Then the Cataclysm rocked the world. Atlantis and Lemuria sank, and the Pictish Islands were heaved up to form the mountain peaks of a new continent. Sections of the Thurian Continent vanished under the waves, or sinking, formed great inland lakes and seas. Volcanoes broke forth and terrific earthquakes shook down the shining cities of the empires. Whole nations were blotted out." - REH in The Hyborian Age

"Many Lemurians escaped to the eastern coast of the Thurian Continent, which was comparatively untouched. There they were enslaved by the ancient race which already dwelt there, and their history for a thousand years, is a history of brutal servitude." - REH in The Hyborian Age

"In the distant east, cut off from the rest of the world by the heaving up of gigantic mountains and the forming of a chain of vast lakes, the Lemurians are toiling as slaves of their ancient masters." - REH in The Hyborian Age

"After the Pictish-Atlantean wars had destroyed the beginnings of what might have been a new culture, another, lesser cataclysm further altered the appearance of the original continent, left a great inland sea where the chain of lakes had been, to further separate west from east, and the attendant earthquakes, floods, and volcanoes completed the ruin of the barbarians which their tribal wars had begun." - REH in The Hyborian Age

I left the distant east comparatively untouched. The great inland sea is the Vilayet Sea, and I left some of the chain of lakes still separating the west from east and flooded several areas creating new lakes.

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 12 January 2011 - 07:17 PM.

If life is an illusion, then I am no less an illusion, and being thus, the illusion is real to me. Queen of the Black Coast 1934 Robert E. Howard

 

Amra's The Chronicles of Conan The Cimmerian: Determining the chronological order of Howard's Conan Tales


#274 Halfdane

Halfdane

    Warrior

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 149 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:13 AM

Posted Image

I wanted to see what Howard's borders would look like when layed over a map of the Younger Dryas / Late Glacial Maximum.

What I don't like:
-As my map goes further North, things are stretched out too far East - West.
-I have no idea what the Caspian's shoreline looked like from 20,000 - 10,000 BC. Anybody know of a good resource?
-I accidentally cropped it too far South, so the word "Tundras" on Howard's 1936 map doesn't appear.
-There was just too much dead space on the edges, so I cropped off Stygia & the northern borders of Nordheim.
-I don't like a lot of the colors I used for the text.
-I didn't put on anything that doesn't appear on Howard's map, even if it's something really obvious (like "NORDHEIM").

Oh, well. There's still a lot I like about this. But man, now I just want to paint Hyboria on a GLOBE to get past all of the pitfalls of a map.

Edited by Halfdane, 18 April 2011 - 03:16 AM.


#275 Taranaich

Taranaich

    Metal Barbarian Dinosaur

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,932 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Bleak Moors of Scotland

Posted 18 April 2011 - 05:12 AM

Really interesting experiment, Halfdane! I've seen a couple of these, but yours seems to be the first to use Howard's borders and map notes. Just imagine the Med and Black Seas were dry for a few millenia, raise the Bay of Biscay a bit, lower eastern Africa, and you have a nice mixture between palaeogeological accuracy and fidelity to Howard's map.

Robert E. Howard, 1906 - 2006

Sword & Sorcery! Posted Image Posted Image Historical Fiction!
Horror! Posted Image Posted Image Westerns!
Boxing! Posted Image Posted Image Conan!


#276 Kortoso

Kortoso

    -=Reiver of the Western Marches=-

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,400 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 18 April 2011 - 05:31 PM

-As my map goes further North, things are stretched out too far East - West.


I know what you are talking about:
http://en.wikipedia..../Map_projection

Even though it's much earlier, you might enjoy this as well:
http://en.wikipedia....salinity_crisis

#277 Halfdane

Halfdane

    Warrior

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 149 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 April 2011 - 04:09 AM

Really interesting experiment, Halfdane! I've seen a couple of these, but yours seems to be the first to use Howard's borders and map notes. Just imagine the Med and Black Seas were dry for a few millenia, raise the Bay of Biscay a bit, lower eastern Africa, and you have a nice mixture between palaeogeological accuracy and fidelity to Howard's map.


At the time I made my map I hadn't yet read "The Hyborian Age", where Howard reinforces what is and isn't dry land. So at that point I wasn't completely sold on the seas being dry or western Africa being sunk. As I read on, I had fun keeping two versions of "Hyboria" in mind: one that reflected Howard's intentions, and one that reflected a historical geography of the last ice age.

I just imagined away the the borders that crossed into the water; pretending that they represented shipping lanes/territory:
-Argos was made up of islands (Corsica, Sardinia, Menorca, Mallorca, Eivissa, etc.) and the coastal Rif region of present day Morocco.
-Shem's "Meadow Cities" were separated by the sea from other nomadic Shemite regions(southern Italy, southern Greece, and the deserts of Anatolia).
-Khauran and Khoraja each gained a coast (and probably became more valuable pieces of real-estate).
-Koth, Ophir & Aquilonia also picked up coasts, while the Pictish Wilderness and Zingara expanded theirs.

Seriously, take another look at my map with this in mind.

It was very fun, and, strangely, it worked out pretty well. The only time I remember it breaking down was in QotBC when
"the Argus pushed steadily southward" ...
"They sighted the coast of Shem -- long rolling meadowlands" ...
"Nor did master Tito pull into the broad bay where the Styx river emptied its gigantic flood into the ocean" ...
"They had passed the southern borders of Stygia and were cruising along the coasts of Cush."

They'd have to be taking a really long way around Africa to get to Kush, and utilizing a canal that connected to the Red Sea. Of course, there are historical precedents for such canals, which would take them right to the coast of the real historical kingdom of Kush! So it didn't work out so bad after all.

I was especially surprised when Conan's route from Aquilonia to Zingara to Messantia to Khemi in HotD held up. Anyway, I don't mind ignoring "The Hyborian Age", since it was never published; and usually is just a headache to me now. Then again, the maps would be just as suspect for also being unpublished...and even if I ignore THA and go only off of the stories and the maps...there are still one or two things that contradict reality ("SEA" being written over Africa).

Overall I think my theory is sound: Hyborian Age geography (as put forward in Howard's finished stories) can fit into the historical reality of Earth's Last Glacial Maximum. I suppose my post started as an explanation of something that I did for fun. Now it feels like I've turned it into a challenge. Anybody think they can find quotes within the Conan sagas that contradict Howard's borders on an Ice Age map?

#278 Kortoso

Kortoso

    -=Reiver of the Western Marches=-

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10,400 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

Posted 19 April 2011 - 05:17 PM

In earlier days, about 6 million years back, the Mediterranrean WAS a vast dry valley. There was probably a winding river leading from the mouth of the Nile all the way to Gibraltar.
http://en.wikipedia....salinity_crisis
IMHO, Howard was inspired by this in his world-creation.
Ths would make Corsica, Sardinia and the Balearics into the mountains of Argos, for instance.

#279 Halfdane

Halfdane

    Warrior

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 149 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 19 April 2011 - 06:43 PM

Both are fun theories, I think.

But here's my challenge to the theory that the Hyborian Age was in the late Miocene/early Pliocene:
If the Mediterranean was dry then Africa would really need to be dry, too, for the Salinity Crisis to work. And then if all of Africa and the Mediterranean were dry, where could the Argus sail?

Plus, if you go that route, most of the western coast of Europe is under water again, and there's nowhere for the Picts, Bossonians, Gundermen, Vanir, etc. to live.

#280 deuce

deuce

    The OG of "Psychotic Maladjustment"

  • Moderators
  • 13,033 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Serpent-haunted SEK, beside the Lake of the Mound

Posted 19 April 2011 - 07:07 PM

Both are fun theories, I think.

But here's my challenge to the theory that the Hyborian Age was in the late Miocene/early Pliocene:
If the Mediterranean was dry then Africa would really need to be dry, too, for the Salinity Crisis to work. And then if all of Africa and the Mediterranean were dry, where could the Argus sail?

Plus, if you go that route, most of the western coast of Europe is under water again, and there's nowhere for the Picts, Bossonians, Gundermen, Vanir, etc. to live.


Trying to fit REH's Hyborian Age (and his preceding Ages) exactly into present knowledge is never going to work. In the service of the fictional construct/narrative, Howard was right and modern science is (at best, somewhat) wrong. Where do you fit in the massive catastrophism absolutely inherent to Howard's fictional world history?

The Hyborian Age was fairly plausible by late 19th century standards.

One might as well argue (as Khemsa once tried) that, despite everything REH said to the contrary, the tales of the Irish reiver, Cormac Mac Art, happened in the 7th century rather than the 5th.

It's a fun game, but throwing out virtually everything Howard said makes it rather pointless.



Support the Robert E. Howard Foundation. It helps you and Robert E. Howard's legacy.