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Maps of Hyborian Age Earth


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#301 Bingam Vici

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Posted 10 June 2011 - 03:21 AM

Exactly, Bingam Vici. :) REH did 3 maps of Hyborian Age. The first two ones in 1932 - published in The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian -, and the 3rd in 1936 - published in "The Conquering Sword of Conan". Hope that helps. :)

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#302 Halfdane

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 06:55 PM

I was curious about the projection that REH used on his maps of the Hyborian Age world.

This is what I found:

REH's 2nd map layered over Europe
Posted Image

REH's 3rd map layered over Europe
Posted Image

So, I've concluded that the map of Europe that REH used had maintained the perspective of one gazing down at a globe.

#303 Kortoso

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:19 PM

Here's a backgrounder:
http://en.wikipedia..../Map_projection
And some candidates for map projections:
http://en.wikipedia....map_projections

My guess is Goode projection, but he would have had a "local" map of Europe to draw from, rather than a globe.

#304 Halfdane

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 07:23 PM

Sorry about the images... I'll delete them if I've put too many on here.

Here is my globe with Hyborian Age borders drawn on, and photographed to reflect the perspective of Howard's map.
Posted Image

And here is a different look at the same globe. This is where I think this study is important.
Posted Image

This drastically changes my view of Howard's maps. When I looked at them before, I saw "up" stricltly as north.
In the last picture, it can clearly be seen that the Vilayet, Turan, etc. really veer off to the east.

In my opinion, I think that this is quite an interesting revelation.
For instance, look at how far west Vanaheim stretches (containing Iceland!) toward Greenland, or how far south Cimmeria dips.

Having only seen other fan maps that interprate "up as north", this was an interesting outcome.

And really, being able to look at a globe from any angle I want is far more rewarding than any map I could make.

PS - this means that the Vilayet stretches to where the West Siberian Glacial Lake(s) once existed.

#305 Taranaich

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 05:35 AM

Damn, Halfdane, this is great stuff! It had always been a source of irritation to me trying to nail down the projection of the continent, since I was always vaguely aware that there was something strange about it. Now all we have to do is try transcribing Howard's borders onto different projections...

Is it possible REH based his drawing not necessarily on a project, but a photograph of a globe?

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#306 Tex

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 06:27 AM

Is it possible REH based his drawing not necessarily on a project, but a photograph of a globe?


This also brings up another question -- Does anyone know if Howard owned a globe?

Tex
(having a HOLY COW moment)

#307 theagenes

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 12:39 PM

There was an essay in one of the REHupa mailings last year about this. I forget whose zine it was -- Scotty maybe? Anyway, he made a good case for an identification of the projection as well as a possible candidate for the atlas (not globe) that REH traced it from. I'm in the field at the moment, but when I get home this weekend I'll look for it.
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#308 Halfdane

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 04:11 PM

Damn, Halfdane, this is great stuff! It had always been a source of irritation to me trying to nail down the projection of the continent, since I was always vaguely aware that there was something strange about it. Now all we have to do is try transcribing Howard's borders onto different projections...

Is it possible REH based his drawing not necessarily on a project, but a photograph of a globe?


Thanks, Taranaich!

Based on this, I would definately say that he traced a picture/map/atlas that displayed Europe from a "globe view" (ie: a view of Europe from space, that wasn't skewed by being stretched into any sort of map projection).

As for attempting to make the Hyborian Age into a map... I think I'm done trying my hand at that. You see, now I have this globe with Howard's borders, haha. For me, it doesn't get any truer than that.

#309 Kortoso

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 05:05 PM

It's a Goode projection.
http://en.wikipedia....sine_projection



#310 Halfdane

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 08:27 PM

It's a Goode projection.
http://en.wikipedia....sine_projection


I hate to disagree, but if I try the same experiment in PhotoShop by layering Howard's maps over a Goode Homolosine projection, it just doesn't work.

Though the projection you suggest does line up pretty well in the center (from Italy & Greece to Denmark & southern Scandinavia), it otherwise starts to fall apart as we look North, East, and West. If I try to pivot REH's map to align one side (say, Spain in the west) then the other side only becomes more drastically out of place (everything from Norway to the Caspian would swing to the Northwest).

Posted Image

The image is taken from the wikipedia link you provided. I've only cropped it to the relevant area and inverted the colors to make REH's lines stand out more. I also tried to keep the image as small as possible, while still showcasing the misalignment. It can be seen that the Black Sea, the Caspian Sea, the Baltic Sea, Finland, the Iberian Peninsula, the Bay of Biscay, the United Kingdom, Brittany, and the Norwegian Sea are all incompatible with the Goode Homolosine projection.

I'm going to maintain my position that REH traced an atlas/map that featured a true view of Europe from space (a 2D perspective of a globe). Of course, I'm still open for discussion on this point. Thanks for the challenge! Are there any other cantidates?

#311 Kortoso

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 08:55 PM

Thanks for looking at this.
AFAIK, until the Mercator projection, Goode's projection was the only one in currency in Howard's time.

#312 theagenes

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 11:46 PM

Found the essay I was looking for and it was in Scotty Henderson's zine. It's entitled "Howard's Maps and Their Definitive Source" in Scotty's zine, The Keltic Journal in REHupa 222 (April 2010).

Scotty shows definitively that Howard's Map 1 and and Map 3 are traced from the conic projection map of Europe in the 1926 Compton's Pictured Encyclopedia. Even where the maps cut off in North Africa is identical. (Map 3 was likely traced from Map 1 and is the copy REH made for Clark and Miller).

I'll send Scotty a link to this thread and maybe he can comment or post some of his images.
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#313 Tex

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 12:22 AM

Way to pull a Jim Rockford there, Jeff! You da man! B)

Tex
(wondering how many out there are now going to ABE to get a 1926 Compton's)

#314 theagenes

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 12:45 AM

Way to pull a Jim Rockford there, Jeff! You da man! B)

Tex
(wondering how many out there are now going to ABE to get a 1926 Compton's)


Scotty's the real Rockford. Just pointing out his excellent research.
Halfdane was definitely on the right track though.
Jeff
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#315 theagenes

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 01:06 AM

Scotty isn't a member of the forums, but he said I could post his comments:

I considered after my article, later, that probably any conical projection map would fit, as the parameters are the same. Any conical flat projection of Europe will have the identical proportions, and a globe is exactly the real thing. The reason his images don't quite fit is because he is placing a flat image over a sphere electronically - won't work - would have to wrap the image over the sphere and them should match better. When I played and tweaked the size of the scans to match I got a perfect fit. In may article I resized them slightly off for a light stereo effect so that one could see the outline shapes corresponded perfectly to each other. REH traced over a conical projection that was flat, as the Compton's map. I'm not sure if Well's Outline had any similar map, but that could be a possibility. Was it you who bought copies of Outline recently, trying to identify REH's version, or was that Lee? Anyway, you can cut and paste this information if you want, but based on what we know of Howard, the best bet seems to be Compton's two page spread.

Cheers
Scotty Henderson


I don't think I mentioned it earlier, but REH owned a set of Compton's Pictured Encyclopedia as per Rusty's REH Bookshelf.

Edited by theagenes, 18 June 2011 - 01:13 AM.

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#316 Taranaich

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 04:06 AM

Dammit, so many excellent REHupas I just missed out on!

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#317 thekelt

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 12:44 AM

There was an essay in one of the REHupa mailings last year about this. I forget whose zine it was -- Scotty maybe? Anyway, he made a good case for an identification of the projection as well as a possible candidate for the atlas (not globe) that REH traced it from. I'm in the field at the moment, but when I get home this weekend I'll look for it.
Jeff



Thanks Jeff. After checking out the link I decided to join as it seems the Conan board has matured and has some decent discussions. Current members of REHupa can always request an e-copy of a previous zine from me. I was reviewing the work I did on that last year and as all will see from the attachments that the H1 (Howard 1st map) overlaid on the Compton's political map of Europe is an exact match. I centered it particularly on the UK and Danish/French coast so when you get over to the east there are slight discrepancies. We are not sure how Howard traced the maps, perhaps on onionskin first, then transferred to paper, or directly traced on paper that was light enough for tracing. However, for anyone who has ever traced, you know it is not an exact science because the copy material tends to creep when hand held (didn't have Scotch tape in those days), so there are likely to be slight variances.

When I overlaid H3 and H1 it was clear that they were traced from the same source, because when offset, the outlines matched again with only minor variances. Regarding the globe issue, it is highly unlikely REH had access to one, nor is there any record he might have owned one. I'm including a scan of the 2 page Compton's map for those that might want to try there own superimposition with Howard's maps, and a copy of H1 overlaid on Compton's as mentioned above.

Well that will have to wait, as the insert image is asking for a URL instead of opening explorer. I don't know if it is my browser or whether I need to change some setting. If anyone can explain I'd appreciate it as I have little patience with such things if they don't work automatically. :rolleyes:


Posted Image


Posted Image



OK. thanks for the info on photobucket Jeff. All is well now. I might point out that if I focused on aligning different parts of the maps together I usually could get a perfect match at the expense of another area going slightly out of sync. As I mentioned before, I believe this is because tracing the map out of a book like Compton's over a two page spread is difficult as the tracing material will tend to squirm due to the spine being unsupported. I just pulled Vol. 3 of Compton's out of the pile (I have a set on loan from the UBC Library which I am researching for possible REH sources) where this map is in almost the centre of the book and when laid open flat tends to bulge near the spine, and dips right on the spine. This would make tracing difficult as you move area to area and one doesn't notice the slight creep of the paper. This also explains when I focus on aligning in one area, such as the Caspian versus Italy versus the UK that the outlines match at the expense of others areas varying slightly.

Some further things that came to mind: In REHupa 182 Aug 2003 I started a series Hyborian Age Cartography; Interpretation & History. I'd been collecting all the versions of Hyborian maps I could find and figure out which order they appeared in. As a result I was puzzled as to the source of a map in the 1977 Gazeteer of the Hyborian Age. There were distinct differences between it and maps H1 and H2 produced earlier in Del Rey and Wandering Star books. I sent scans to Patrice Louinet in France and after chatting back and forth we both realized I'd found the H3 map, produced in 1936 by Howard. I sent my copy to Jim Keegan in LA where he scanned it for the upcoming 3rd? Conan book, although no mention was made that I could find crediting me for the discovery.
Regardless, other reasons for differences and variances in the H3 map are undoubtedly due to Howard's state of mind in 1936 due to his concern for his mother, as he sent that version off to S. Miller & John D. Clark just prior to his death. His printing on the map clearly indicate he was under stress compared to earlier maps and other samples of his writing for earlier times. In Oct 2008 I raised the question of Howard's sources for maps and geography, as there was no atlases known in his library. That was when, searching through the Howard Bookshelf by Rusty Burke I realized Compton's Pictured Encyclopedia might be an excellent source of maps. I've had Compton's 1926 on loan for over a year mining it for information and when I saw the Europe Political map, suddenly realized it looked a lot like Howard's outlines. Scanning and overlaying soon proved the point.

Scotty Henderson

Edited by thekelt, 20 June 2011 - 06:15 AM.


#318 theagenes

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 03:21 PM

Welcome back to the boards Scotty! B)

To post images you need to have an account at an photo hosting site like Photobucket or ImageShack. There you can upload then and get their URLs so you can post them here. Or if you want just email them to me and I'll host 'em and post 'em for you.
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#319 Taranaich

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 03:30 PM

Grand to see you, good sir! B)

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#320 thekelt

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 04:17 AM

Grand to see you, good sir! B)


Aye, thanks, and missed coming to Cross Plains this year too, but that's life. Maybe next year.