412 replies to this topic

[thatericn]

Trent's map is EXCELLENT -

I appreciate that it does not shrink Africa and Asia, like so many other Hyborian maps do. He has stayed very faithful to REH's Euro/Hyborian boundaries.

If it were up to me, the only "cheat" I would suggest, as is done on the Mongoose map, is to stretch Hyperborea eastward. As discussed elsewhere, Many people have the feeling that Hyperborea is meant as a sort of Hyborian Russia, yet it is not much larger than Finland... I would think Hyperborea would be large and strong, to both hold off the Turanians and Hyrkanians, while at the same time being a big threat to King Conan's Aquilonia...

Again, great job!

Edited by thatericn, 19 April 2012 - 06:33 PM.

[Spartan198]

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/012/b/e/hypothetical_hyborian_map2_by_amra_the_lion-d36rq51.gif

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9456936/MapoftheHyborianAgelow.jpg

Fantastic work, guys.

[Amra_the_Lion]

Thanks Spartan198, I couldn't be happier with how Trent's map came out. It was a pleasure to help him work on it.

[Amra_the_Lion]

Trent's map is EXCELLENT -

I appreciate that it does not shrink Africa and Asia, like so many other Hyborian maps do. He has stayed very faithful to REH's Euro/Hyborian boundaries.

If it were up to me, the only "cheat" I would suggest, as is done on the Mongoose map, is to stretch Hyperborea eastward. As discussed elsewhere, Many people have the feeling that Hyperborea is meant as a sort of Hyborian Russia, yet it is not much larger than Finland... I would think Hyperborea would be large and strong, to both hold off the Turanians and Hyrkanians, while at the same time being a big threat to King Conan's Aquilonia...

Again, great job!

Hyperborea is one of the countries that Robert E. Howard gave a definite border to, so no possibility of cheating there. Size of the nation doesn't mean much when considering whether or not they can hold off invaders. Bob's Hyperborea is only slighty smaller than Aquilonia. Consider the Bossonians of the Bossonian Marches keeping at bay (for awhile at least) the Picts and the Cimmerians from overrunning Aquilonian borders. Talk about determination against two mighty foes with only a small spread of land as a buffer.

Between Aquilonia and the Pictish wilderness lie the Bossonian marches, peopled by descendants of an aboriginal race, conquered by a tribe of Hyborians, early in the first ages of the Hyborian drift. This mixed people never attained the civilization of the purer Hyborians, and was pushed by them to the very fringe of the civilized world. The Bossonians are of medium height and complexion, their eyes brown or grey, and they are mesocephalic. They live mainly by agriculture, in large walled villages, and are part of the Aquilonian kingdom. Their marches extend from the Border kingdom in the north to Zingara in the southwest, forming a bulwark for Aquilonia against both the Cimmerians and the Picts. They are stubborn defensive fighters, and centuries of warfare against northern and western barbarians have caused them to evolve a type of defense almost impregnable against direct attack. - The Hyborian Age

Even when Aquilonia was invaded by Nemedia in The Hour of the Dragon the Bossonians remained unconquered with Gunderland.

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 29 April 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[Spartan198]

I couldn't be happier with how Trent's map came out.

Same here, whole heartedly.

[deuce]

I do think it needs work on the eastern half, but that's always toughest (along with the extreme southern end of the Stygian continent). However, what CAN be validated directly from REH's maps is great, as is the overall look/approach.

You've got CPI's Mongoose/"Official" version beat by a Cimmerian league.

Message me on anything you have. I want this map to be the best map of the Hyborian Age out there.

Again, Deuce thank you for all the kind words.
T

You deserve the kudos, Trent.

I'll message you soon.

Sorry I haven't gotten back with you, Trent (and Jester as well). Between floods, broken clavicles and a temporary loss of my internet at home, it just hasn't gotten done. Hope to be more active starting next week.

[Cheomesh]

That's an amazing map! Do I have permission to get it printed professionally some time in the future?

Also one question for the map guys: Does anyone know of a "line map" of Nemedia? I'm running a game there and while the ones by V. Darlange are great, they're impossible to print and track party progress on - especially since I've only got a B&W laser printer accessible to me. I'm after something simple, just with pips for cities and something to demark rivers and terrain. Suppose I could do it myself, but I'd like to see what's out there first.

M.

[Kane]

Sorry, the best I could find, given your request was HERE
Scroll down to Nemedia and click on it for the expanded view.

[Lunatic]

I love this map.

I was just lunacing about one thing. The east looks like a more historical vision of earth while the west is the vision of REH:s Hyboria with parts of Africa sunk and land added in what would be the north-atlantic today and the mediterreanen.

Would it be an idea worth while to do a similar shift in the east? That is to sink some parts and raise others up from the foaming waves. Marking "remnants" of Lemuria and I guess Mu? I would sink northern asia and rasie the australian continent possibly connecting with the raised Antarctica.

Just my simple thoughts on the subject of world maps.

[Amra_the_Lion]

I love this map.

I was just lunacing about one thing. The east looks like a more historical vision of earth while the west is the vision of REH:s Hyboria with parts of Africa sunk and land added in what would be the north-atlantic today and the mediterreanen.

Would it be an idea worth while to do a similar shift in the east? That is to sink some parts and raise others up from the foaming waves. Marking "remnants" of Lemuria and I guess Mu? I would sink northern asia and rasie the australian continent possibly connecting with the raised Antarctica.

Just my simple thoughts on the subject of world maps.

Howard said the east was comparatively untouched by the cataclysms that rocked the earth and changed the west.

"Then the Cataclysm rocked the world. Atlantis and Lemuria sank, and the Pictish Islands were heaved up to form the mountain peaks of a new continent. Sections of the Thurian Continent vanished under the waves, or sinking, formed great inland lakes and seas. Volcanoes broke forth and terrific earthquakes shook down the shining cities of the empires. Whole nations were blotted out." - REH in The Hyborian Age

"Many Lemurians escaped to the eastern coast of the Thurian Continent, which was comparatively untouched. There they were enslaved by the ancient race which already dwelt there, and their history for a thousand years, is a history of brutal servitude." - REH in The Hyborian Age

"In the distant east, cut off from the rest of the world by the heaving up of gigantic mountains and the forming of a chain of vast lakes, the Lemurians are toiling as slaves of their ancient masters." - REH in The Hyborian Age

"After the Pictish-Atlantean wars had destroyed the beginnings of what might have been a new culture, another, lesser cataclysm further altered the appearance of the original continent, left a great inland sea where the chain of lakes had been, to further separate west from east, and the attendant earthquakes, floods, and volcanoes completed the ruin of the barbarians which their tribal wars had begun." - REH in The Hyborian Age

Using Howard's writings as a guide, there's no way that Mu and Lemuria would still be above the waves in the time of Conan. Small, scattered island remnants, yeah, but nothing that would merit the title of "Mu" or "the Lemurian Isles". In fact, judging from clues in The Hyborian Age and The Isle of Eons, it's possible that Mu wasn't even around in the time of Kull (though "Muvians" were).

[Boot]

I love this map.

Me too. It's my desktop wallpaper.

[Boot]

Say...looking at that map...isn't the Vilayet too far to the north? It seems like the northern end of the sea would be frozen over in winter since it's along the same latitudes as Cimmeria and farther, up the frozen north.

[Amra_the_Lion]

Say...looking at that map...isn't the Vilayet too far to the north? It seems like the northern end of the sea would be frozen over in winter since it's along the same latitudes as Cimmeria and farther, up the frozen north.

That is where Howard chose to place it with the northern end parallel with Nordheim. It is however a salt water lake which would slow the effects of freezing. Although salt water will freeze the latitude of where sea ice forms is further north in the modern day world. The oceans around modern day Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Finland do not freeze although they may have ice formations against the rocks, broken ice sloughed off during glacial melting in the fjords, or icebergs in the sea from drift ice from the seasonal polar ice sheet break up. The modern Caspian Sea is analogous with the Vilayet of Howard's Hyborian Age and has a freshwater inlet at the northern end making a part of that salt water sea the largest freshwater landlocked lake of which the northern end does freeze because of lower salinity. On this view of the sea ice index the caspian sea is in the lower right hand corner of the image with a turquoise color showing where the fresh water is located compared to the dark blue salt sea.



Norwegian fjord in winter

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 21 July 2012 - 05:14 AM.

[Halfdane]

Damn, Halfdane, this is great stuff! It had always been a source of irritation to me trying to nail down the projection of the continent, since I was always vaguely aware that there was something strange about it. Now all we have to do is try transcribing Howard's borders onto different projections...

Taranaich, happy to find my pictorial research featured on your blog!

Looked up the 1926 Compon's Pictured Encyclopedia on Amazon, etc. on a whim last night. Decided I couldn't spend $100-$200 on a ten volume set! BUT then I found Vol. 3 on ebay for $12. So, I am soon to own the same map that REH traced.

My plan is to:
1) find or create a Full World Map with the same¹ projection & meridian as Compton's Map
2) scan Compton's Map and layer/align it over the Full World Map
3) scan REH's Maps² & layer/align them over Compton's Map & the Full World Map

GOAL: With the above steps accomplished, we will be able to accurately translate Howard's map of the Hyborian Age into ANY PROJECTION. Seems to me like a pretty good resource for anybody creating a Hyborian Age map.

My footnotes are the things I need help/advice on:
¹ We need to show the Compton's Map scan that Mr. Henderson provided (p. 17 of this forum) around to some cartography forums to figure out the EXACT information needed to replicate the projection. "It's a conic projection" just isn't going to cut it. We need to verify the meridian is 20°, figure out what kind of conic projection it is, etc.
² I will need to use the highest quality copies of REH's maps. Two of them in the Del Reys are rather small, and the third has had its contrast bumped; and, when removed from the book, is misaligned due to being spread across two pages. Is there another better source available to me that I can pull these from???

FURTHER THOUGHTS: I will be removing the map pages from Compton's Pictured Encyclopedia at the spine. I only feel a little bad about destroying an 86 year old encyclopedia. I'm bored of seeing maps of the Hyborian age that assume that up=N/assume that Howard used a Mercator projection (even the meridian on Compton's map is slightly angled; it does not place N at top-center or S at bottom-center). The Vilayet points NNE, damn it -- a full 30° difference. Well, it points to our NNE, at least -- does anyone know where the poles were moved to during the Hyborian Age???

After layering/aligning all of the maps, I can turn them to a Mercator projection. The distinct layers & alignment will be preserved. Then the Mercator projection can be easily converted to any projection. I even have a filter that will convert a Mercator projection to a printable globe template!

[deuce]

Say...looking at that map...isn't the Vilayet too far to the north? It seems like the northern end of the sea would be frozen over in winter since it's along the same latitudes as Cimmeria and farther, up the frozen north.

Like Amra said, the Vilayet is right where REH put it. I guess my first question would be: Does it make a difference if the northern part of the Vilayet is frozen in winter? I have no idea how that might conflict with anything Howard wrote about the Hyborian Age.

Perhaps a partially frozen Vilayet even helped the Timuroid Hyrkanians at the end of the HA in their final "Drang nach Westen".

[deuce]

GOAL: With the above steps accomplished, we will be able to accurately translate Howard's map of the Hyborian Age into ANY PROJECTION. Seems to me like a pretty good resource for anybody creating a Hyborian Age map.

Good to see you back on the forum, Halfdane. Indeed, that would be very helpful to any would-be cartographer of the Hyborian Age. May Mitra guide your steps.

My footnotes are the things I need help/advice on:
¹ We need to show the Compton's Map scan that Mr. Henderson provided (p. 17 of this thread) around to some cartography forums to figure out the EXACT information needed to replicate the projection. "It's a conic projection" just isn't going to cut it. We need to verify the meridian is 20°, figure out what kind of conic projection it is, etc.
² I will need to use the highest quality copies of REH's maps. Two of them in the Del Reys are rather small, and the third has had its contrast bumped; and, when removed from the book, is misaligned due to being spread across two pages. Is there another better source available to me that I can pull these from???

I don't have a membership on any cartography forum (maybe I should). You're quite right about nailing down the specific projection. Are you asking for other members to show around the Compton map?

As far as a "better source", my first recommendation would be Paul Herman/"godzilladude" here on the forum. He has access to all the REH papers (basically) and I know he has an interest in HA maps.

I'm bored of seeing maps of the Hyborian age that assume that up=N/assume that Howard used a Mercator projection (even the meridian on Compton's map is slightly angled; it does not place N at top-center or S at bottom-center). The Vilayet points NNE, damn it -- a full 30° difference. Well, it points to our NNE, at least -- does anyone know where the poles were moved to during the Hyborian Age???

The position of the poles during the HA is somewhat nebulous. We know that REH implied an earlier pole-shift in QotBC. Personally, I think it possible that the boreal pole was a little farther north (in relation to the western Hyborian kingdoms) than now (we know that the Bering sea was frozen just a few centuries later). Hard to see gigantic serpents in what is now western France, otherwise. The whole topic needs a LOT more discussion.

However, for now, I'd say it'd be safest to just put the Pole in the current position.

After layering/aligning all of the maps, I can turn them to a Mercator projection. The distinct layers & alignment will be preserved. Then the Mercator projection can be easily converted to any projection. I even have a filter that will convert a Mercator projection to a printable globe template!

THAT would be distinctly cool. Just imagine: a globe of Hyborian Age Earth!

[Brajah]

Halfdane maybe I can help.

I have been working on a similar project after seeing some of the earlier posts on this thread. I used the 3 Howard maps ( I don't remember where I got them), the Compton's map available here on a program called ArcGIS 10.


This is Howard Map A in a Europe Lambert Conformal Conic projection


This is the same map zoomed out to show more of the world, still in conic projection. Things start to look a lot different in the south and the east.



If you switch to a Mercator projection things really start to change.




You can also project the maps onto a globe.
This is Map A centered on the 25E meridian.





This is the same globe centered on the 50E meridian at the bottom of the Vilayet Sea.



Hope this helps.

[Ironhand]

So lemme get this straight. Koth is the Balkans, Shem is the Mediterranean/Levant/Turky, and is really huge?

Edited by Ironhand, 20 September 2012 - 07:35 AM.

[deuce]

I have been working on a similar project after seeing some of the earlier posts on this thread. I used the 3 Howard maps ( I don't remember where I got them), the Compton's map available here on a program called ArcGIS 10.


Hope this helps.

Some great work there, Brajah. Many thanks! Or as they might say in Cimmeria: "Go raibh maith agat."