[Argrath Dragonspear]

Hi folks,
Here is an interesting topic for debate. Many of the posts on this site claim that REH created the Sword & Sorcery genre. However, I contend that the creator of the 'MODERN' Sword & Sorcery genre was in fact Lord Dunsany (although some authors claim that J H Rosny should be credited as the the creator of the genre).
I am the proud possessor of a first edition of 'A little book of Wonders' by Lord Dunsany and the tales therein are gems beyond price. I have a number of other books which contain collections of Lord Dunsany's tales, including editions of the 1960's Ballantine Adult Fantasy series.
The tale 'The Sword of Wellaran' is an absolute classic of the genre and we know REH was a great admirer of this and other of Lord Dunsany's tales.
Taking this into account, why is Lord Dunsany not given the credit he deserves, and why has he all but disappeared from the reading publics gaze? And, why have none of his tales been filmed?
I would welcome comment on this forgotten giant amoungst men and his place in Heroic Fantasy and Swords & Sorcery in general.

[HARPERSGRACE]

Lord Dunsany's works have always read as fairy tales to me not sword and sorcery fiction, they have almost the rythmic quality of a nursery ryhme. That is not to say they are poorly written they just seem to be a updating of a older form not something new unto them selves.

[massive cod piece]

I agree with harpersgrace, dunsany has perhaps inspired great writers but his own works never struck me as epics.

[dr Bo]

I didn't know of Lord Dunsany, it sound interesting reading. I guess my French cultural background made me skipped some of these English classic.
Any recommend reading to begin with? I shall look for 'The Sword of Wellaran', sounds good!
Personally I love when the fairy tales aspect is present in a Sword and Sorcery or Heroic Fantasy tales. So I guess Dunsany will be pleasant reading for me.

This post has been edited by dr Bo: 16 November 2005 - 09:29 PM

[Argrath Dragonspear]

I'm glad to see you agree that Lord Dunsany inspired many authors Mr Codpiece, that is in itself an affirmation that he may well have been the creator of the genre or they would not have written so many tales in his kind of style. I would suggest you compare REH's original stories as they appeared in Weird Tales, before De Camp and co got their hands on them, to Lord Dunsany's works, you may be pleasantly surprised!
Dr Bo, I'm not sure if any of Lord Dunsany's tales are currently in print, but 'The Sword of Welleran' often appears in anthologies of Swords & Sorcery tales.

[HARPERSGRACE]

Book Of Wonders can be found on line at http://www.sff.net/p...ld/l_wonder.htm

[dr Bo]

Quote

Book Of Wonders can be found on line at http://www.sff.net/p...ld/l_wonder.htm

Thanks, I shall look forward to it.
Look like great reading.

Viva public domain!

[Orkin]

massive cod piece, on Nov 1 2004, 07:30 PM, said:

I agree with harpersgrace, dunsany has perhaps inspired great writers but his own works never struck me as epics.

Yep, he didn't have to be great, he just had to be first.

[HARPERSGRACE]

The Gibbelins eat, as is well known, nothing less good than man. Their evil tower is joined to Terra Cognita, to the lands we know, by a bridge. Their hoard is beyond reason; avarice has no use for it; they have a separate cellar for emeralds and a separate cellar for sapphires; they have filled a hole with gold and dig it up when they need it. And the only use that is known for their ridiculous wealth is to attract to their larder a continual supply of food. In times of famine they have even been known to scatter rubies abroad, a little trail of them to some city of Man, and sure enough their larders would soon be full again.

from :THE HOARD OF THE GIBBELINS
by Lord Dunsany


It just doesn't seem to be in the same vein as Howard or any other S&S fiction, more along the line of Hansel and Gretel

The old woman had only pretended to be so kind; she was in reality a wicked witch, who lay in wait for children, and had only built the little house of bread in order to entice them there. When a child fell into her power, she killed it, cooked and ate it, and that was a feast day with her. Witches have red eyes, and cannot see far, but they have a keen scent like the beasts, and are aware when human beings draw near.

[TroceroQuijas]

Heroic tales, epics and mythology and all other tall tales have existed forever. Its storytelling. And its clear REH drew alot of influence from these as well as history in alot of his works. But he created something better. More vivid, realistic and full of action. So much better the term is coined to him, rightfully.

Robert E. Howard created the genre that is, and therefore is the creator of Sword & Sorcery! (not to be confused with others)

[dr Bo]

Quote

It just doesn't seem to be in the same vein as Howard or any other S&S fiction, more along the line of Hansel and Gretel

Indeed. Sword and Sorcery is pretty close to Fairy Tales on many theme it flirt with (hidden treasure, damsel in distress, trickery by wizard and evil creatrure, transformation, cruelty, etc.), and have many similar type of character (noble hero, knight, wizard, damsel, rogue, etc.), turn around the same era (antique or medieval) yet the tone and narration is what separate them. These are really brother genre.

A damsel in distress have usually less clothes in a Sword and Sorcery than in a Fairy Tales, and the talk between her and the hero who saved her is usually also pretty different...

This post has been edited by dr Bo: 16 November 2005 - 09:30 PM

[Orkin]

Fairy tales, Heroid fantasy, sword and sorcery, and yes even Science fiction are indeed continuations of ancient traditions of myth-telling. These tales are usually not given credence as being literally "real", any more than a dream is, but like a dream, can carry very powerful subconscious messages.

For further information read The Uses of Enchantment : The Meaning and Importance of Fairy Tales by Bruno Bettelheim also anything by Joseph Campbell...

[Argrath Dragonspear]

'And now the armies had come very near. Suddenly Rold leaped up, crying: 'Welleran! And the sword of Welleran!'And the savage, lusting sword that had thirsted for a hundred years went up with hand of Rold and swept through a tribesman's ribs. And with the warm blood all about it there came a joy into the curved soul of that mighty sword, like to the joy of a swimmer coming up dripping out of warm seas after living for long in a dry land. When they saw the red cloak and that terrible sword a cry ran through the tribal armies, 'Welleran lives!' And there arose the sounds of the exulting of victorious men, and the panting of those that fled, and the sword singing softly to itself as it whirled dripping through the air. And the last that I saw of the battle as it poured into the depth and darkness of the ravine was the sword of Welleran sweeping up and falling, gleaming blue in the moonlight whenever it arose and afterwards gleaming red, and so disappearing into the darkness'.
A missing REH tale? No, its an excerpt from 'The Sword of Welleran', fairy tale indeed!!!

[dr Bo]

Quote

A missing REH tale? No, its an excerpt from 'The Sword of Welleran', fairy tale indeed!!!

Very close to heroic fantasy indeed. At this point, it is heroic fantasy, no question about it for me. I definately must read more of this, it really sound nice!

Fairy Tales always have a pretty cruel aspect, which somehow only bended to become the battle violence present in Sword and Sorcery.
The wolf in little riding Hood that eat her is not far from man-eating monster and dragons from Sword and Sorcery, the cruel fate witches and villains suffer in fairy tale is very similar to the one the wizard have in S&S.
Even further, the fascination for sleeping princess in such tale like Snow White and Sleeping Beauty carries the same necrophilic twist that some Robert Howard and Clark Ashton Smith pulp stories tell with their love from beyond the grave and mummy cult theme.

This post has been edited by dr Bo: 16 November 2005 - 09:31 PM

[PainBrush]

I don't know what topic it was , but the other day the subject of Sword & Sorcery & if Howard invented it or perfected it , or whatever, & Lord Dunsany came up . Always been one of my favorites since I was a kid . The topic made me actually go down inthe dungeon & dig thru my flat-file to find this . I started to do a Warren-magazine style illustration of Dunsany's "Hoard of the Gibbelins" in black & white emulating my favorites of the time Berni Wrightson & Esteban Maroto . I got to within a couple pages of finishing & for some reason shelved it & never touched it again , tho I had planned to submit it to a comic company or two at the time . My camera can't take a decent picture at all so the details all but gone , you can hardly see the tree-roots are giant hands digging greedily into the earth , the river-waves become the wood-grain on the table , etc. etc. Keep in mind I did this as a kid maybe 20-some years ago . I did file the copyrights on the art for the pages I did have finished . if I bring it back to life & re-do it after all the years in -between I might be able to do justice to the subject matter now.....I don't care if Howard or Dunsany created S.&S. 'technically' -or if it should just be called 'heroic-fantasy' instead , it's all in the same group to me.....



Man !! Now that I see this loaded , maybe I shouldn't have ! - I wish I had a better camera , gonna get one soon ! -You can't see the face in the candles wax, the trees in the back look choppy....



-edited again , I tried a different approach to reproducing this now , instead of the crappy photo from my cheap digital camera I used my scanner to try & reproduce the page , i had to scan the 4 individual corners since the original art was so large ( twice up from magazine size) - then i had to use my 'photopaint' program to splice the 4 individual scans back together at the new smaller size . It didn't work too well , you can see the difference in tone in the middle of the page , - still it looks a 'little' better than the lousy original photo I posted here .

This post has been edited by PAINBRUSH: 09 September 2007 - 10:05 AM

[PainBrush]

Here's page 2 , one of the better ones I think, there's a funny-looking spot on the king's throne-mattress where the background pattern/moire' design I had pasted there has torn off from sitting in a flat-file for years & getting shuffled . After looking at these loaded , it bugs me that all the detail in areas like that , & the patterns/textures I took so long to include don't show up . Definitely have to get a good camera haha .



Any critiques ? -Should I try to resuscitate this 'artistic' endeavor , or throw it back in the flat-file? -Be honest , & brutal even if required hahaha .-Not that anybody here ever pulls any punches , that's why I like it here !!

P.S. That's me in the poofy-shirt holding my boots & my helmet in front of the throne , & reading the book at the bottom , - rather that 'was' me when I was a snot-nosed teenager .

This post has been edited by PAINBRUSH: 16 November 2005 - 04:07 AM

[korak]

Painbrush, you got real talent man, I would say genius! I don't make such statements lightly. Not everybody has what it takes. You could have studied in Paris and gone the whole nine yards (hell, maybe you have.) You have got it-- more of it than most current professionals.

Anyway, I can tell you this-- try HP Lovecraft's Dreamquest of Unknown Kadath novel. Read that and see what you think. You could publish your own comic and sell it and make a fortune on that. If they won't let you do that, I have a whole outline for Greek Myths that I made for Tim Conrad, but he wasn't interested in mythology. I think you could make the greatest comic book of all time if you adapted the Greek myths. It would be a favorite staple of boys for hundreds of years! Think about it-- I still have all my chronogical outlines for a whole series of issues, from creation, Perseus, etc all the way to Odysseus. You might pick your favorite and try one at least.

korak

[PainBrush]

Wow, I wasn't expecting that . I'll be strutting around the house the rest of the night hahaha . - I've gotten kind of rusty for a while as far as doing 'regular' amounts of drawing or painting , but been getting back into the grooves a little more lately because of a lot of time on my hands because of some reconstructive surgeries on my ankle , so I've been working on my chops . I've got this project I'll start ( again) & finish if it kills me , -that I've been obsessed with for years , the 'real' 'true' life-story & history of Attilla King of the Huns . Trust me on this , if you never read about the man , he's Conan , Kull , Charlemagne , King Arthur & Andrew Dice Clay rolled up in one personality . He was called the 'scourge of God' - by his 'enemies' (the degenerate Roman empire for the most part) , but not by his own people or other tribes who were helped by Huns ! He welded together the tribes of the most un-weldable & wild race of people to exist & then went wherever they wanted to unstoppably . A vulgar everyday common man of immense honor , intelligence & integrity , yet ruthlessness where needed , - treading the purple carpets of Roman royalty beneath his muddy boots !! If the word 'barbarian' ever had a 'kiss-my-as5' quality that thumbed it's nose at the snobby elite , it was in regards to this man !!

[Strom]

Very, very impressive stuff Painbrush!

I would love to see you adapt a Conan tale - but the Attilla project sounds just as good. I would definitely continue your art - your very good. I love comic pages with alot going on - like the two images you've posted - it's old school and shows a passion for the subject you just don't see nowadays.

Thanks for sharing and please keep us updated!

[Cormac]

Seriously, Painbrush. Keep up the fantastic work. I realy like the introspective look while leaning on the hand. I needs more, more I sez!