643 replies to this topic

[deuce]

Once again, I'll say that the main thing, IF genuine, is the mention of the heretofore unplaced kingdom of Yam.

[PainBrush]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence is right ! It always strikes me as funny when people deduce that just because they haven't found any Pharaonic hats or slippers in the western desert , or heiroglyphs hammered in mountain boulders that the "Egyptians probably never even went out of their houses" For most of the time it existed the Egyptian empire was the largest & richest nation in the world , it did not get that way by trading with itself ! It would not surprise me in the least if one day someone found Egyptian or even Ur , Babylonian relics in China , or as far North as Scandinavia , as far South as Botswana . They did have wheels in those days !! If some old Egyptian heiroglyphs or Sanskrit papyrus' or cuneiform tablets turn up in a cave in Kentucky - NOW were talking impressive !

[Pictish Scout]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence is right ! It always strikes me as funny when people deduce that just because they haven't found any Pharaonic hats or slippers in the western desert , or heiroglyphs hammered in mountain boulders that the "Egyptians probably never even went out of their houses" For most of the time it existed the Egyptian empire was the largest & richest nation in the world , it did not get that way by trading with itself ! It would not surprise me in the least if one day someone found Egyptian or even Ur , Babylonian relics in China , or as far North as Scandinavia , as far South as Botswana . They did have wheels in those days !! If some old Egyptian heiroglyphs or Sanskrit papyrus' or cuneiform tablets turn up in a cave in Kentucky - NOW were talking impressive !

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Maybe you are right, but it is a more "safe" and temporary solution than speculation, until some evidence is found. Actually Egyptians did have comerce with southern regions of Africa ( Punt?) and Asia: the Lapis Lasuli that Egyptians loved came from Afghanistan. But this doesn't mean there were Egytpian miners or merchants working in Afghanistan. Back then they used indirect comerce. Maybe the Afghani who sell the Lapis Lasuli never heard of Egypt and vice versa.

When the British invaded the Ashanti kingdom ( West Africa ) in the XIX century they found in the king's palace a bronze vase that was made in England during in the time of Richard II. I think it was the same kind of comerce here. I doubt Richard II and the Ashanti new of each other.

Edited by Pictish Scout, 04 January 2008 - 05:45 AM.

[Doug]

Hey All!
Well, it looks like thses pesky "lost civilizations" just keep turning up faster than you can say Opar!

http://en.rian.ru/an...7/94372640.html


take care.
Doug

Edited by Strom, 04 January 2008 - 07:16 AM.
fixed link

[deuce]

Hey Doug! I'm not getting anything with that link.

[Ironhand]

It worked for me. But in case others have problems with this site, which seems to be sponsored by "pretty Russian girlfriends", here is a copy. Is this lake anywhere near the Vilayet Sea?

Remains of ancient civilization discovered on the bottom of a lake 16:35 | 27/ 12/ 2007

MOSCOW. (Nikolai Lukashov for RIA Novosti)

An international archeological expedition to Lake Issyk Kul, high in the Kyrgyz mountains, proves the existence of an advanced civilization 25 centuries ago, equal in development to the Hellenic civilizations of the northern coast of the Pontus Euxinus (Black Sea) and the Mediterranean coast of Egypt.

The expedition resulted in sensational finds, including the discovery of major settlements, presently buried underwater. The data and artefacts obtained, which are currently under study, apply the finishing touches to the many years of exploration in the lake, made by seven previous expeditions. The addition of a previously unknown culture to the treasury of history extends the idea of the patterns and regularities of human development.

Kyrgyz historians, led by Vladimir Ploskikh, vice president of the Kyrgyz Academy of Sciences, worked side-by-side with Russian colleagues, lead by historian Svetlana Lukashova and myself. All the Russians involved were experienced skin-divers and members of the Russian Confederation of Underwater Sports. We were responsible for the work done under water. Scuba divers ventured into the lake many times to study its bottom.

Last year, we worked near the north coast at depths of 5-10 metres to discover formidable walls, some stretching for 500 meters-traces of a large city with an area of several square kilometers. In other words, it was a metropolis in its time. We also found Scythian burial mounds, eroded by waves over the centuries, and numerous well preserved artifacts-bronze battleaxes, arrowheads, self-sharpening daggers, objects discarded by smiths, casting molds, and a faceted gold bar, which was a monetary unit of the time.

Lake Issyk Kul has played a tremendous role since the inception of human history due to its geographic location at the crossing of Indo-Aryan and other nomadic routes. Archeologists found traces of many religions here-Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Somewhere in the vicinity was Chihu, the metropolitan city of a mighty state of Wusung nomads, which ancient Chinese chronicles mentioned on many occasions.

The Great Silk Road lay along the lake's coast until the 18th century. Even today, the descendants of caravan drivers recollect their ancestors' stories about travelling from Asia to Europe and back.

Tamerlane built a fortress on one of the lake islets to hold aristocratic captives and keep his treasures. The famous Asian expeditions of Russian explorers Dmitry Przhevalsky and Pyotr Semyonov-Tianshansky started from that spot.

The latter left us an enticing mystery. When he visited Venice in 1850, he looked at the Catalan Atlas of 1375 and came across a picture of a lakeside monastery with the caption: "The spot is named Isikol. Here is a monastery of Armenian brethren, which is rumored to possess the relics of St. Matthew the Apostle and Evangelist."

Semyonov-Tianshansky embarked on a relentless but vain search for the shrine. To all appearances, the monastery was engulfed by water. Hydrologists have not to this day sufficiently studied the unique lake with regular shifts in its water level. Some changes are gradual, others sudden and disastrous since they are caused by earthquakes and torrents of water rush from lakes higher up in the mountains. Floods recede sooner or later, and people come back to the shores-only to become the victims of other floods 500-700 years later.

Throughout the years of their partnership, Russian and Kyrgyz archeologists discovered and examined more than ten major flooded urban and rural settlements of varying ages. Their ample finds generously add to present-day ideas of everyday life in times long ago.

Some artifacts are stunning. A 2,500 year-old ritual bronze cauldron was found on the bottom of the lake. The subtlety of its craftsmanship is amazing. Such excellent quality of joining details together can be presently obtained by metalwork in an inert gas. How did ancient people achieve their high-tech perfection? Also of superb workmanship are bronze mirrors, festive horse harnesses and many other objects. Articles identified as the world's oldest extant coins were also found underwater-gold wire rings used as small change and a large hexahedral goldpiece.

Side by side with the settlements are remnants of ritual complexes of times immemorial, dwellings and household outbuildings. Later expeditions will study them.

The information collected there allows us to conjecture that local people had a socio-economic system hitherto unknown to historians. As a blending of nomadic and settled life, it either gradually evolved into something different or-more likely-was destroyed by one of the many local floods. Legends confirm the latter assumption.

Nikolai Lukashov, a member of the Russian Confederation of Underwater Sports, took part in the the Issyk Kul expedition.

The opinions expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.

Edited by Ironhand, 04 January 2008 - 08:04 AM.

[Ironhand]

I was impressed by the old manuscript found in Venice: "the Catalan Atlas of 1375" with the "picture of a lakeside monastery with the caption: "The spot is named Isikol. Here is a monastery of Armenian brethren, which is rumored to possess the relics of St. Matthew the Apostle and Evangelist." "

[Ironhand]

Interesting but one must be very careful with this articles about archaeologic "relics". If it is true maybe it dates from the Lybian dinasty that ruled late Egypt.

It reminds of an article I read about a roman Villa in northern Spain, from the III or IV century. In this Villa archaeologist found the oldest representation of the Passion of the Christ ( I actualy seen the photos) and the "Holy Father" writen in Hieroglyphs. This could prove two things

1- The Cross representation was used at least from the III century ( one of the most hardest time to be a christian because of the roman persecutions)

2- Hieroglyphs were used at least untill III century.

One interpretation of the discovery is that a slave from Egypt was teaching those romans about christ and ancient egyptian writing.

The first thing archaeologist did when they found it was calling the press and the bishop (that blessed the pottery in which were engraved the hyeroglyphs and the cross)
Maybe they were too quick to judge or was the press ( wanting to sell news), but we are still waiting for more results on the investigation...

There's a story in that. I bet it would make a movie. Something like "The Robe" or "Ben Hur".

[Ironhand]

Somewhere in the vicinity was Chihu, the metropolitan city of a mighty state of Wusung nomads, which ancient Chinese chronicles mentioned on many occasions.

I was reading that passage without my glasses, and wow! for a minute I thought that said "Chthlhu, the metropolitan city...". Gave me a turn for a minute.

[PainBrush]

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Maybe you are right, but it is a more "safe" and temporary solution than speculation, until some evidence is found. Actually Egyptians did have comerce with southern regions of Africa ( Punt?) and Asia:

Of course wild speculation wouldn't make sense , but if you find evidence that the Egyptians did in fact travel or trade with lands several hundred miles beyond what was accepted for years as their 'limits' or 'boundaries' - doesn't it make sense to say just as easily "it's impressive to find this evidence way out here in the desert - perhaps the Egyptians were much better travelled than we have thought until now. " - instead of saying " it isn't likely that the Egyptians travelled or traded any further than here ." ? During roughly the same era there were red-headed Celts in the mountains all the way over in China - with no evidence that they were even traders much less that they were rich , what were they doing there & how often did they go ? & Isn't commerce , conquest & riches even more incentive for people who are wealthy or who are traders or conquerors to travel to the farthest reaches they can ?

I think ( & it's just my opinion ) that ancient people ( all ancient people ) were much better travelled & knew a lot more of each other than is commonly supposed . There's strong evidence that Mayans & Aztecs were trading with North American tribes in what is now the midwest states area east of the Rocky mountains & maybe even the mississippi river for copper from primitive mines ! ( & the Indian tribes may or may not have even been the ones doing the mining ) - That trade would be almost equivalent in distance from Egypt to China , or to Scandinavia , or India . There's some primitive pyramids & buildings 60 feet below the surface of a big lake in Wisconsin that was a dry valley in the stone age !! - Food for thought . The Sauk indians who lived in the area of that lake had histories of the ancient people who lived there before them & built what is probably an entire city , now underneath Rock Lake . Here's a quote from a page I read about it not too long ago.....

Side-scan sonar reading, indicating several artificial structures beneath the surface of Rock Lake. ( I don't have the sonar photos saved )
Unusually clean water conditions in 1991-92 allowed two of the sites to be photographed in sufficient detail to prove their existence as man-made structures. Sufficient evidence does not exist to date the structures or to identify their builders. One possibility is that they are associated with prehistoric copper trade cultures which would coincide with the Post Algoma low lake levels of 3,000 years ago.

Hmmm , an ancient pyramid from over 3,000 years ago in North America , an entire city & race of people dissapeared underneath the waves ,...... where have I heard similar stories ?

In North American Archeological circles, one of the great enigmas is who mined the millions of pounds of pure raw copper from Michigan's upper peninsula and Isle Royale in the time period between 3000 BC and 1200 BC. Indigenous use of copper was limited to small-scale utilization and does not account for the prodigious amounts mined .

In European and Middle Eastern Archeological circles, one of the enigmas is where did all the copper come from to sustain the copper and Bronze Age cultures in the time period between 3000 BC and 1200 BC. Local sources were not sufficient and of the quality necessary to supply these large scale cultures.

Oral Native American history and lore deny any affiliation to the prehistoric mining operations; rather they cite 'ancient maritime foreigners' who mined the ' Red Rock '. All throughout North America there are archeological anomalies that point to the possibility of contact from Trans Pacific and Trans Atlantic visitors with pre-Columbian North American cultures. Additional, evidence suggest wide trade networks between the people of Mesoamerica and those magnificent indigenous cultures labeled as the ?Mound Builders?.

Rock Lake may hold in its murky depths some of the answers to the identity of the ?Ancient Foreigners" that the local Indian lore speaks of. Who are the people that built the 'Rock Tepees" (pyramidal stone structures) that lay beneath the waters of Rock Lake and where did they come from ?

p.s. - Sorry if I went too far off topic talking about ancient peoples being better travelled than usually credited , I think it is kind of relevant to the Egypt/Yam topic but I'll shut up about it now

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 04 January 2008 - 05:37 PM.

[PainBrush]

Great article ! I just posted something in the "Lost Kingdom of Yam" topic about a 3,000 year old stone-age city with Pyramids etc. lost under the waves of Rock Lake in Wisconsin that you all might find interesting & knowing everyone here - no doubt you already know all about it !
---------> Pyramid/City beneath Rock Lake , Ancient Foreign Copper Miners ? <----------

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 04 January 2008 - 05:30 PM.

[deuce]

p.s. - Sorry if I went too far off topic talking about ancient peoples being better travelled than usually credited , I think it is kind of relevant to the Egypt/Yam topic but I'll shut up about it now

Hey PB! No biggie. Interesting points. "Was Howard Subconsciously Right" might be a better thread. I'd like to discuss Rock Lake (and other historical anomalies) further.

[Kortoso]

In our continuing tradition of sharing ground-breaking archaeology and paleotonlogy, I present to you, the African Iron Age. They did not need to learn ironworking from the Mediterranean civilizations.

http://en.wikipedia....-Saharan_Africa

Iron use, in smelting and forging for tools, appears in West Africa by 1200 BC, making it one of the first places for the birth of the Iron Age.

Inhabitants at Termit, in eastern Niger became the first iron smelting people in West Africa and among the first in the world around 1500 BC. Iron and copper working then continued to spread southward through the continent, reaching the Cape around AD 200. The widespread use of iron revolutionized the Bantu-speaking farming communities who adopted it, driving out and absorbing the hunter-gatherer societies they encountered as they expanded to farm wider areas of savannah. The technologically superior Bantu-speakers spread across southern Africa and became rich and powerful, producing iron for tools and weapons in large, industrial quantities.

Duncan E. Miller and N.J. Van Der Merwe, 'Early Metal Working in Sub Saharan Africa' Journal of African History 35 (1994) 1-36; Minze Stuiver and N.J. Van Der Merwe, 'Radiocarbon Chronology of the Iron Age in Sub-Saharan Africa' Current Anthropology 1968.

How Old is the Iron Age in Sub-Saharan Africa? - by Roderick J. McIntosh, Archaeological Institute of America

Iron in Sub-Saharan Africa - by Stanley B. Alpern

Iron in Africa: Revisiting the History

[Pictish Scout]

In my opinion there is no "reason" to exclude the idea of "civilization" in the pre-colombian U.S.A. And I don't mean it has to do with Meso-American Aztecs, Toltecs, Maya, etc. But I must confess that American Archaeology isn't my forte. I beleave there are evidence of civilization in the West ( Pueblo culture), Am I right?

Back to Egypt. There was things that could have stoped an Egyptian traveller (before the New Kingdom)

1 - Wars with Lybian tribes

2 - He would travel on foot, there was no camels in Egypt ( the first camels arrived in VII century with the Assyrians), no horses and no wheels ( although they new about it). So he had to WALK to sell their goods in the other side of the desert. Well they had donkeys...

3 - He could just have navigated in the Nile, Mediterranean or Red Sea and have much more profit than going west.

4 - "International trade" belonged to the state, not to the individual. An Egyptian could sell some cows in the local market but wouldn't go to Nubia or Mesopotamia unless he was incorporated in a state caravan. It is also interesting that Egyptians didn't use GOLD in their echonomy. They buried it for the dead to use it in the afterlife.

Things didn't change much in the New Kingdom, but then they had horses and chariots, but it was for elite warriors, not for merchants.

It is also possible that land wasn't a complet desert in that age.

I think the Kingdom of Yam is South of Egypt, not West. There are some stories about an Upper Egypt Vizir that goes to Yam and brings Leopard Skins, ebony, elephant tusks and a Pygmy. And in a letter from the Pharaoh the king says something like " Come north quickly and don't let the Pygmy be harmed". Maybe this Yam kingdom was somewhere in Nubia. And that Vizir went to Yam by the Nile or other body of water as the Pharaoh says " don't let the pygmy fall from the boat in to the water". I don't know the exact words but I remember something like that lol.

Egyptians and Libians new each other from long ago. Libians were one of the "Nine Bows" the traditional enemies of Egypt, but they were never seen as hostile like the asiatics or nubians, although we know that there were Egyptian military campaigns in Libia since Archaic Periods, and Libians were paying tribute to the first Pharaohs. They became a real problem to Egypt when they joined forces with the Sea People ( In the New Kingdom). Later they became a powerful military caste and than rulers of Egypt starting the long foreign domination of Egypt that only ended in the XX century with Abdel Nasser... hum I have to check it.

So, sometime during this long relationship, Egyptians walked west and left that evidences of their presence. I would like to know the names of the pharaohs and what is writen there.

[Pictish Scout]

I remeber reading something about it sometime ago. There is also and older Iron Age in India. Archaeologists are reviewing some dates now, making it more ancient than once thought.
Just imagine if the Bantu speaking people weren't driven south by the Sahara Desert and migrated north, they could have reached the Mediterranian in 900 BC, competing with Phoenicians and "Celts" over the bronze age tribes of Western Europe. If they arrived by 1000 BC they could have carved an Iron Age empire in North Africa and Southern Europe.

[Almuric]

Yeesh, you can't go anywhere without tripping over a lost city these days.

[Taranaich]

I do distinctly remember something about the Bantu people being advanced, but I didn't know about them reaching an Iron Age.

Great stuff Kortoso!

[Pictish Scout]

I do distinctly remember something about the Bantu people being advanced, but I didn't know about them reaching an Iron Age.

Great stuff Kortoso!

There are some exemples in the Internet of ancient Iron working ( weapons, tools) in Bantu speaking nations. There is also the famous Nok culture.

They were not only technologicaly advanced, but social too. When the first europeans started to navigate in the western coast of Africa they had to change their policy of trade. In the Mediterranean world the Europeans used the policy of Trade / Loot the muslims of North Africa. War and trade at the same time. When europeans arrived in the coast of Guinea and later in Congo they did find decadent empires ( Mali) but also strong centralized states with professional armies, cities and merchants. And they had to bow to their laws and choose to trade peacefully instead of Looting like in the Mediterranean. Also Congo kings used to send letters and ambassadors to Portuguese kings.

So.. look at Africa right now... something went really wrong in the last centuries.

[Dragon Girl]

This is fascinating stuff. Seems like every year they make new discoveries that make us rethink human history.

[Kortoso]

I was wondering about this years ago, when I learned that the Yoruba (Nigerian) god of smiths, Ogun, is lame just like the Hellenic Haphaestos and is wedded to the goddess of love and beauty, Osshun, as Haphaestos is with Aphrodite.

Now it doesn't seem like such a coincidence anymore, but it looks like the lines of influence went in the opposite direction that I assumed.