112 replies to this topic

[Red Hand]

What fun. It's difficult to get too heated about pseudohistory!

I think that allowing a generic early Gaelic to the Cimmerians and turning a blind eye to the historical facts would be one way to remain sane...

Sounds good to me!!!!!

[BIFlight]

Hello again, all.

I've been pondering something lately. In REH's various Conan stories, he often describes Conan as speaking with "a curious barbaric accent" whenever he delves into the tongues of other lands.

I'm curious--is there any indication what this "accent" would sound like? Do any of REH's writings give us a hint of what Cimmerian would sound like, and by extention, how it would influence a native speaker in learning new tongues? Since Cimmerian was, in REH's mind, "proto-Celtic," does "Cimmerian" have a Gaelic sound to it?

Thoughts?

[budgie]

Hello again, all.

I've been pondering something lately. In REH's various Conan stories, he often describes Conan as speaking with "a curious barbaric accent" whenever he delves into the tongues of other lands.

I'm curious--is there any indication what this "accent" would sound like? Do any of REH's writings give us a hint of what Cimmerian would sound like, and by extention, how it would influence a native speaker in learning new tongues? Since Cimmerian was, in REH's mind, "proto-Celtic," does "Cimmerian" have a Gaelic sound to it?

Thoughts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ah, we have discussed this before . However its an interesting subject and worth an update..

A lot of folks have suggested current language patterns ranging from Gaelic to Germanic to whatever.. strange thing is what sounds barbaric to one person doesnt sound so to another.

Gaelic for example is actually quite a soft spoken, almost musical tongue and to me does not seem foriegn to me (despite the fact I cant speak or understand it)..

Arnies accent in the movies sounded decidedly different but to any of our Germanic members it wont...you get my point?

I dont think itsd the accent thats going to be important its more the tone of the vioce, especially when dealing with a vocal based media (Conan cartoons, movies, audio books etc).. I feel Conan would have a big, deep voice to go with his appearance and stature so when reading I think of him speaking in a deep bass type voice.. something commanding..

Budgie

[Kortoso]

In The Slithering Shadow some of the Old Tongue is revealed as Conan curses Natala. There are similarities to modern Gaelic, and differences.

The search for the lost scrolls continues. Until then we are left with our imaginations.

[Taranaich]

In The Slithering Shadow some of the Old Tongue is revealed as Conan curses Natala. There are similarities to modern Gaelic, and differences.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The three Cimmerian curses we hear from Conan are:

"Lir an Mannanan mac Lir!" - Xuthal of the Dusk/The Slithering Shadow

"Macha, Morrigan, Babd and Nemain!" - I think People of the Black Circle, but don't quote me on that

"Crom!" - pick any story, it's probably there.

It's pretty clear that the Cimmerian tongue is modelled on Gaelic, so I personally think Scottish Gaelic would be a good approximation. Irish gaelic, Welsh, Manx and Old Cornish are too smooth and lyrical, but Scots gaelic has the occassional, gutteral sounds which would sound rude and barbaric to more refined tongues. Look at the word "loch" - many non-Scots I've met pronounce it "lock", and find it very difficult to pronounce it the proper way.

Of course, I may be biased...

[budgie]

In The Slithering Shadow some of the Old Tongue is revealed as Conan curses Natala. There are similarities to modern Gaelic, and differences.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The three Cimmerian curses we hear from Conan are:

"Lir an Mannanan mac Lir!" - Xuthal of the Dusk/The Slithering Shadow

"Macha, Morrigan, Babd and Nemain!" - I think People of the Black Circle, but don't quote me on that

"Crom!" - pick any story, it's probably there.

It's pretty clear that the Cimmerian tongue is modelled on Gaelic, so I personally think Scottish Gaelic would be a good approximation. Irish gaelic, Welsh, Manx and Old Cornish are too smooth and lyrical, but Scots gaelic has the occassional, gutteral sounds which would sound rude and barbaric to more refined tongues. Look at the word "loch" - many non-Scots I've met pronounce it "lock", and find it very difficult to pronounce it the proper way.

Of course, I may be biased...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oh great.. I sound barbaric .. I have noticed I do have problems when speaking to my collegues in the city (Edinburgh) with thier civilised Anglified tounges.. its funny I have less problems speaking to an Aberdonian and you know how gutteral they are when speaking

Budgie

[korak]

budgie writes-oh great.. I sound barbaric .. I have noticed I do have problems when speaking to my collegues in the city (Edinburgh) with thier civilised Anglified tounges.. its funny I have less problems speaking to an Aberdonian and you know how gutteral they are when speaking


Well, they cast Connery, a scotsman, as Bond, so why not CONAN? Makes sense!

[budgie]

budgie writes-oh great.. I sound barbaric  .. I have noticed I do have problems when speaking to my collegues in the city (Edinburgh) with thier civilised Anglified tounges.. its funny I have less problems speaking to an Aberdonian and you know how gutteral they are when speaking


Well, they cast Connery, a scotsman, as Bond, so why not CONAN? Makes sense! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thing is Connery has a very Anglified Scots accent (he's from Edinburgh).. would be funny hearing Conan speak with a more rural Scots tongue..

I cant see Conan speaking broad Glaswegian.. Wester Isles maybe though..

What you think on this Taranaich?

Budgie

[cimmerianbloke]

About the softness of irish gaelic, I've got to add a few cents... There are actually three main dialects in Ireland that developed very strong particularities due to their respective isolation from each others. To my best knowledge, Connemara (Connacht) Irish is the harshest and is not soft at all. It is spoken in the Galway and Connemara area and in the Aran Islands, where the locals say it is the purest form spoken, relatively untouched . On the other hand, Ulster (Northern Ireland) Irish is very soft, due to the relatively small amount of native speaker and the high interference of english. You can learn some and hear some programs on the BBC website

http://www.bbc.co.uk...ers/index.shtml


Kerry (Munster) Irish is quite soft as well and is the one who tends to disappear at the fastest pace, even though the goverment has a strong language protection policy. For those interested in the Irish language, here's some methods that can help. I've got some on the mule...

Teach Yourself Irish
Buntus cainte
Learning Irish

The BBC had a great course on books and tapes some years ago, but out of print, and I just don't remember the name... I'll dig it as I'll pay a visit to Ireland in February.

[Xaltotun]

About the softness of irish gaelic, I've got to add a few cents... There are actually three main dialects in Ireland that developed very strong particularities due to their respective isolation from each others. To my best knowledge, Connemara ...

I assume that Cimmeria is supposed to be some crude version of lands occupied by the Continental Celts, speaking what is known as Proto-Celtic (perhaps of the Hallstatt culture, La Tene culture, etc. However, I do not think that the Cimmerians were intended by Howard to be anywhere nearly as advanced as the historical Celts). When coming up with names for characters in the Conan RPG I use the two links which are extremely fascinating and useful.

www.wales.ac.uk/documents/external/cawcs/MoE-PCl.pdf
www.wales.ac.uk/documents/external/cawcs/pcl-moe.pdf

[Kortoso]

About the softness of irish gaelic, I've got to add a few cents... There are actually three main dialects in Ireland that developed very strong particularities due to their respective isolation from each others. To my best knowledge, Connemara ...

I assume that Cimmeria is supposed to be some crude version of lands occupied by the Continental Celts, speaking what is known as Proto-Celtic (perhaps of the Hallstatt culture, La Tene culture, etc. However, I do not think that the Cimmerians were intended by Howard to be anywhere nearly as advanced as the historical Celts). When coming up with names for characters in the Conan RPG I use the two links which are extremely fascinating and useful.

www.wales.ac.uk/documents/external/cawcs/MoE-PCl.pdf
www.wales.ac.uk/documents/external/cawcs/pcl-moe.pdf

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly my reference as well!

Notice that in the phrase "Lir an Manannan mac Lir!" the absence of the Gaelic vocative case (in which the names are preceded by "a").

Also, the Cimmerian "an" appears to be a translation of the English "and", normally "agus" or "okus" in Gaelic languages.

So aside from what we can assume from proto-Celtic, there appear to be some differences.

Normally when we speak of a gutteral language, it actually means that the sounds often come from the back of the mouth: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutteral

Edited by Kortoso, 26 December 2005 - 03:09 AM.

[cimmerianbloke]

Great website, Lads, I'll spend some time gallivanting... Lovely place as well, I remember driving through the Snowdon area some years ago, really fabulous landscape...

[budgie]

Great website, Lads, I'll spend some time gallivanting... Lovely place as well, I remember driving through the Snowdon area some years ago, really fabulous landscape...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you think the Snowdon range is impressive it aint got nothing on the highlands..

Wales is nice though.. at least they got hills

Budgie

[Taranaich]

About the softness of irish gaelic, I've got to add a few cents... There are actually three main dialects in Ireland that developed very strong particularities due to their respective isolation from each others. To my best knowledge, Connemara ...

Indeed, regional dialects can play a part too. I always thought the Northern English accent sounded pretty barbaric compared to the other English dialects. Kind of endears me to them.

I assume that Cimmeria is supposed to be some crude version of lands occupied by the Continental Celts, speaking what is known as Proto-Celtic (perhaps of the Hallstatt culture, La Tene culture, etc.  However, I do not think that the Cimmerians were intended by Howard to be anywhere nearly as advanced as the historical Celts). 

Nah, I think they're much more savage than the historical Celts. Nobody I talk to, even the historically minded, believes that the Romans copied the Celtic models of chainmail and helmets

Notice that in the phrase "Lir an Manannan mac Lir!" the absence of the Gaelic vocative case (in which the names are preceded by "a").

Also, the Cimmerian "an" appears to be a translation of the English "and", normally "agus" or "okus" in Gaelic languages.

So aside from what we can assume from proto-Celtic, there appear to be some differences.

Well, either Howard was not that well versed in gaelic (although I seem to remember he wrote a few poems in gaelic?) or he deliberately made it slightly different. Perhaps he wanted to imply that, as a more primitive tongue, Cimmerian might have less multi-syllabel words?

I don't really know enough about gaelic to comment, sadly enough. Shame on me!

Edited by Taranaich, 26 December 2005 - 03:20 PM.

[Kortoso]

Well, either Howard was not that well versed in gaelic...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That would be the "apologist" argument - for those grounded in "reality".
The rest of the world knows that he merely translated the scrolls and took the secret to the grave with him.
You have to ask yourself, which belief is more entertaining?

It looks like people have been speaking Gaelic in Scotland only since Dalriada days. Gaelic began Ireland, so Old Irish would have been the oldest "recent" ancestor.

[Crom]

Moved to the correct forum.

[Kortoso]

Now that we're in the correct forum...

I created a Yahoo group a while back in hopes of getting a proto-Celtic study group together and start to develop a sophisticated Cimmerian language along the lines of Marc Okrand's Klingon.

Since no one else has developed a Cimmerian languiage yet, this could become, like Klingon, the standard language for movies, books, and games (with CPI's permission of course), rather than that which exists now, i.e., random collections of modern Gaelic words and names. This is a chance to craft something that would be true to the original tales, as well as plausible linguistically.

http://groups.yahoo....roup/cimmerian/

[PainBrush]

Ah MAN !!! No lurkers ?!? I'd be interested to read , or hear anything Cimmerian but I'm woefully ignorant of the dialect so I'd be hesitant to join 'coz I wouldn't know what to say ! or how to say it . If you get anybody heckling you tho like they do the 'Klingon' talking guys lemme know , I'll be 'security' for you , just e-mail their addresses haha , or what conventions they're hanging out at . I'll be all official like , with a nice black t-shirt or polo-shirt printed with the word 'staph' on the back . haha

[Kortoso]

Ah MAN !!! No lurkers ?!?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, well, thank you very much, my dear friend, but observers just tend to get in the way. It's best that it stay quiet until it's ready to be released, otherwise there'll be 108 versions floating around.

As it is, in a world of 6 billion people, I'm the only man alive interested in actually contributing to this project. And since I don't send emails to myself, there's nothing to see, move along. My linguistic associate (now in a PhD program) has other fish to fry, although he often offers me helpful clues.

Since the source files are 10,000 words, and since I have other interests in what passes for a life, I doubt if it will ever get finished. In other words, if no one steps up to the plate and actually helps, chances are you will never hear the language spoken.

[Taranaich]

Since the source files are 10,000 words, and since I have other interests in what passes for a life, I doubt if it will ever get finished. In other words, if no one steps up to the plate and actually helps, chances are you will never hear the language spoken.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is easily the most exciting created-language project I've heard of. I'd love to get involved, but as you say I'd probably just get in the way.

Even if you don't get the whole thing done, maybe you could release a couple of examples, like the Cimmerian's name for themselves, or some words for death and war and battle and cow and stuff?