60 replies to this topic

[deuce]

Hey, y'all! What, I go to all this work and no one even responds to say I'm full of $H1T? BTW, isn't it kinda f***k'd up that EIGHTY YEARS after Kull hit Weird Tales™, we STILL don't have a good,solid Thurian Age map?

Take it easy there, deuce.

I wasn't getting worked up. Guess I should have used emoticons. There was all this flurry of activity over the Thurian Age maps by everybody and then suddenly...silence. I was being melodramatic (PB does it all the time, without emoticons). Honestly, show me a post where I have sincerely "cried out" for a response. The second sentence was tacked on as an afterthought.

Edited by deuce, 13 November 2006 - 02:00 AM.

[Kortoso]

I guess there's not as much interest in Kull's world as there is for Conan's. Maybe that's due to the fact that there are fewer Kull stories, so there's less to go on.

[Winterghost]

I would actually like to see some Kull pastiche so we can further explore this map. Or maybe do like they are with AOC, do AOK.

[deuce]

I would actually like to see some Kull pastiche so we can further explore this map. Or maybe do like they are with AOC, do AOK.

Double "Amen" to that, WG. With better oversight. I've never read a TSR/WoC book that strayed from orthodoxy, down to niggling details. In Howard pastiches you have "Atlantean pyramids" and "ebon" Belits and whatever else said "author" thinks he knows more about than REH.

Edited by deuce, 16 November 2006 - 03:32 AM.

[Primeval]

I would actually like to see some Kull pastiche so we can further explore this map. Or maybe do like they are with AOC, do AOK.

Isn't Dark Horse supposed to be doing a Kull comic book? Maybe that will stir up some more interest...

[Zula]

I've always had the impression that Kull's continent seemed immensly smaller than COnan's, though I think that may be do the maps I've seen. THe Thurian lands look to be about half the size of Hyboria and contemporary lands. Maybe it's the large letters with which everything is labeled and the landmarks, such as the forbiden lake. I mean, hey, the forbidden lake should be the size of a small sea at the size with which it's drawn, you know?

I would actually like to see some Kull pastiche so we can further explore this map. Or maybe do like they are with AOC, do AOK.

Isn't Dark Horse supposed to be doing a Kull comic book? Maybe that will stir up some more interest...

[deuce]

I've always had the impression that Kull's continent seemed immensly smaller than COnan's, though I think that may be do the maps I've seen. THe Thurian lands look to be about half the size of Hyboria and contemporary lands. Maybe it's the large letters with which everything is labeled and the landmarks, such as the forbiden lake. I mean, hey, the forbidden lake should be the size of a small sea at the size with which it's drawn, you know?

I would actually like to see some Kull pastiche so we can further explore this map. Or maybe do like they are with AOC, do AOK.

Isn't Dark Horse supposed to be doing a Kull comic book? Maybe that will stir up some more interest...

Yeah, Zula, any Thurian Age maps you've seen so far have serious problems, to one degree or another.

[deuce]

Hey Dale (and the rest of y'all)! I got a coupla new locations to scribble on the Thurian Age map. Both are from the "draft" section of the Kull book. The first one has Ka-nu talking to Kull:"I see you as Kull, king of Valusia, not as Kull, the reckless Atlantean who single-handed defeated the raiders of Skan" (p.262). Seeing as how Ka-nu is trying to convince Kull that he doesn't hold a Pict versus Atlantean grudge, I'd say that "Skan" is one of the Pictish Isles. The second one is from the draft of "The King and the Oak" poem:"King Kull rode out of Kolderkon to make a king a bed;"(p.283). Hard to tell, but I'd say "Kolderkon" is a Valusian border-city.

[Darkstorm Dale]

Hey Dale (and the rest of y'all)! I got a coupla new locations to scribble on the Thurian Age map. Both are from the "draft" section of the Kull book. The first one has Ka-nu talking to Kull:"I see you as Kull, king of Valusia, not as Kull, the reckless Atlantean who single-handed defeated the raiders of Skan" (p.262). Seeing as how Ka-nu is trying to convince Kull that he doesn't hold a Pict versus Atlantean grudge, I'd say that "Skan" is one of the Pictish Isles. The second one is from the draft of "The King and the Oak" poem:"King Kull rode out of Kolderkon to make a king a bed;"(p.283). Hard to tell, but I'd say "Kolderkon" is a Valusian border-city.

Good catch! I knew about Kolderkon already (it appears in my Kull Gazeteer), but I'd never heard about Skan. I agree that from the context, it would pretty much have to be a Pictish name (either an island or a personal name). It's also interesting that Howard flipped Kull's feat from being basically reactive (defeating raiders) in the draft to a more proactive stance (being the raider, himself) in the actual story.

[deuce]

It's also interesting that Howard flipped Kull's feat from being basically reactive (defeating raiders) in the draft to a more proactive stance (being the raider, himself) in the actual story.

Yeah, I thought that was interesting as well. My impression was that not only was Howard making Kull more proactive (ie.,"bada$$") but he was also highlighting Ka-nu's equanimity and diplomacy, since now Kull was an aggressor against the Western Isles. A lot easier to hold a grudge when Kull's attacking rather than defending. Is it just me, or does Ka-nu's demeanor/geo-political situation kinda recall Ben Franklin's stint as envoy to France?

Edited by deuce, 17 February 2007 - 04:48 AM.

[deuce]

I was reading the REH poem Zukala's Hour and noticed something... From Isle of the Eons, we know that Zukala was the Thurian Age god of death and rebirth. The poem mentions "the Seas of Falgarai". I wonder where those would be on the Thurian Age map?

[Darkstorm Dale]

I was reading the REH poem Zukala's Hour and noticed something... From Isle of the Eons, we know that Zukala was the Thurian Age god of death and rebirth. The poem mentions "the Seas of Falgarai". I wonder where those would be on the Thurian Age map?

I noticed this last month when I finally got access to the "Zukala" poems. Zukala is also mentioned in one of the "Isle of the Eons" early drafts. In both instances, he appears to be primarily a god of the land of Mu. The poem implies that an important aspect of the Seas of Falgarai is the depth of the sea.

On my map of the Thurian world it's going to be part of the Pacific (the deepest ocean), specifically the sea that separates the continent of Mu from the Lemurian Archipelago.

[tofu]

I think the map is a good one.Would like to see one in color not just black and white though.Yeah sadly, more people have detailed Conan's world not so much Kulls

[deuce]

I was reading the REH poem Zukala's Hour and noticed something... From Isle of the Eons, we know that Zukala was the Thurian Age god of death and rebirth. The poem mentions "the Seas of Falgarai". I wonder where those would be on the Thurian Age map?

I noticed this last month when I finally got access to the "Zukala" poems. Zukala is also mentioned in one of the "Isle of the Eons" early drafts. In both instances, he appears to be primarily a god of the land of Mu. The poem implies that an important aspect of the Seas of Falgarai is the depth of the sea.

On my map of the Thurian world it's going to be part of the Pacific (the deepest ocean), specifically the sea that separates the continent of Mu from the Lemurian Archipelago.

Hey Dale! SO, Valka and Hotath (HOTAH in the "IoE" version) are also primarily "Muvian" deities? Those two gods are listed alongside Zukala as gods of Mu (in "IoE", p.67 Dark Man V3N1, 2006). Those two gods are frequently called upon by Kull. One of the features that differentiates the Thurian Age from the Hyborian Age is that the former seems to espouse a "world religion/pantheon" while the ethnoi of the Hyborian Age seem to (largely) follow "para-monotheistic" belief systems (ie, Mitra, Crom, Ishtar, Set etc...). Brule swears by (and only by) Valka. Gor-nah the Atlantean gets hot under the collar defending Valka. Rotath the Lemurian curses all humanity by Valka. Many cultures have taboos (tambus?) about naming "DEATH" or its personification (ours included). The fact that Zukala (whom REH wrote three poems about) is not explicitly named in the Kull yarns means little, IMO. Did Howard write three poems about any other god/goddess; "real" or imagined by him? Zukala appears fairly important to REH. In addition, there does appear to be a "lord of death" amongst the Thurians (or at least amongst the Picts). Here's a quote from Kull (Del Rey, p.131)
" 'You had nearly been on a journey to old king Death's realms,'answered the Pict with a mirthless grin as he cleansed his sword."

As I see it, there is no "hard and fast" Muvian connection. Virtually any marine location near worshippers of Zukala could be a candidate. It would be wise to remember that REH read Spence's The Problem of Atlantis. In it, Spence cites a survey expedition along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge (the "site of choice" amongst "Atlantologists" from Donnelly until long after the vindication of Wegener). A depth of "2500 feet" is quoted over the "M-AR". Howard, reading this, would've had no particular reason to not place a "deep" stretch of ocean anywhere he pleased. The deep seas off of Norway (formerly occupied by Vanaheim) are a perfect example.
That said, I see three likely locations. The ocean/gulf north of Thule/Commoria/Kamelia/Zarfhaana could be divided into "seas". So could the "Islands of the Seas" (Dark Man p.64). This would include, IMO, (to the ethnocentric Muvian priesthood of Xultha) both the Pictish Isles (the Picts are never mentioned, strangely enough, in "IoE") and the "Isles of Aballach" (the "Appalachian" isles of the Thurian Age "Celts", implied by REH's The Dwellers Under the Tombs). Bounded by the "nameless continent" to the south and the "Arctic archipelago" to the north, there's plenty of room for "seas". The other possibility that I considered was the ocean between Mu and the Lemurian Isles (or at least, round about them). The fact that Mu sank long before Atlantis and Lemuria (Dark Man, p. 87 and CoC Del Rey, p.382) compels me to place the "Seas of Falgarai" amongst the "Islands of the Seas".

[Darkstorm Dale]

Hey Dale! SO, Valka and Hotath (HOTAH in the "IoE" version) are also primarily "Muvian" deities? Those two gods are listed alongside Zukala as gods of Mu (in "IoE", p.67 Dark Man V3N1, 2006). Those two gods are frequently called upon by Kull. One of the features that differentiates the Thurian Age from the Hyborian Age is that the former seems to espouse a "world religion/pantheon" while the ethnoi of the Hyborian Age seem to (largely) follow "para-monotheistic" belief systems (ie, Mitra, Crom, Ishtar, Set etc...). Brule swears by (and only by) Valka. Gor-nah the Atlantean gets hot under the collar defending Valka. Rotath the Lemurian curses all humanity by Valka. Many cultures have taboos (tambus?) about naming "DEATH" or its personification (ours included). The fact that Zukala (whom REH wrote three poems about) is not explicitly named in the Kull yarns means little, IMO. Did Howard write three poems about any other god/goddess; "real" or imagined by him? Zukala appears fairly important to REH. In addition, there does appear to be a "lord of death" amongst the Thurians (or at least amongst the Picts). Here's a quote from Kull (Del Rey, p.131)
" 'You had nearly been on a journey to old king Death's realms,'answered the Pict with a mirthless grin as he cleansed his sword."

I've never made the claim that Valka and Hotath are "primarily" deities of Mu. Anyone reading the Kull tales can disprove that notion within the first couple stories. What makes me claim that Zukala is a god of Mu is primarily context.

There only appear to be two "universal" gods during the Thurian Age. Valka is the "god of the sea and the land" (according to The Shadow Kingdom) and created the race of Man (Exile of Atlantis). He is mentioned by people from Lemuria, Mu, the Pictish Isles, Atlantis, Valusia, and Zarfhanna in various stories.
Hotath (Hotah is a variant spelling) is also mentioned in a bunch of the stories. (several Kull tales, as well as Isle of the Eons, Curse of the Golden Skull, and Moon of Skulls. Kull curses that Hotath could "doom my soul to everlasting Hell", which raises the notion the Hotath may well be your Thurian Age god of death. It seems to me that you can make a case that Valka/Hotath are a dualistic set of gods; life/death, creative/destructive, etc. Much like Ahura Mazda (Ohrmazd)/Angra Mainyu(Ahriman) in the Zoroastrian faith.
The belief in these two gods seem to be pretty much world-wide.

An untitled Kull story (Riders Beyond the Sunset) describes a scene where Kull swears by Valka, Honen, Holgar, and Hotath. Kull's counselor, Tu, get upset from the blasphemy of mingling deities with heathen gods. So who are these heathen gods?
Kull swears by Honen (Honan) in a couple of stories (RBTS and Swords of the Purple Kingdom). The name also appears in Moon of Skulls as an Atlantean god, So, Honen is Atlantean and/or Pictish (since Men of the Shadows claims that the men of the Atlantean Isles are actually of Pictish origin).
Kull swears by Holgar the one time, and the name also comes up in The Curse of the Golden Skull, when Rotath of Lemuria curses the world for his death. Kull was a Lemurian galley-slave (later pirate) in his early days, so I imagine that Holgar is a heathen god of Lemurian derivation and that Kull picked up his name at that time. As an interesting aside, Moon of Skulls lists the gods of the Picto-Atlanteans as Valka, Hotath, Honen, and Golgor. I've always wondered if Golgor is the Pictish variant of the god Holgar. I also think that the name of the god Golgor evolved over the millenia and appears in Gods of Bal-Sagoth as the god Gol-goroth. But I digress...
Kull also swears by Helfara at the same time he swears by Hotath in RBTS. The subtext implies that Helfara is linked to Hotath; perhaps he's the Atlantean version of the god of death.

All of this leads us around to the problem of Zukala. There isn't a single mention of this god outside of the Zukala poems and The Isle of the Eons. Even The Curse of the Golden Skull, which lists a huge number of Lemurian gods and/or demon lords (Ra and Ka, Vramma, Jaggta-noga, Kamma, and Kulthas, among others) doesn't mention Zukala, unless he's one of the "gods forgotten even by the priests of Lemuria". To be fair, the list doesn't mention Poseidon either, and he's probably the pre-eminent purely Lemurian god (as per IOTE and Marcher of Valhalla). Every single mention of Zukala in all of Howard's literary output links him to the land of Mu. He may well be the "most high" on Mu, but there is no evidence that he is anything more than a local deity. Nayah's boast that he is "greater than Valka, greater than Hotath or Zukala or Poseidon. I am greater than Xultha, greater than the Unknown God" simply means that they are the most important gods to Nayah of Mu. It doesn't imply that all of these gods are co-equal in any way outside of the land of Mu. All of the evidence that we have links Zukala to Mu.

It seems to me that you are basing your speculation around some really nebulous theories. If you can find any actual evidence that Zukala played a major world-wide role as a Thurian age deity, then I would be more than willing willing to revise my opinion.

As I see it, there is no "hard and fast" Muvian connection. Virtually any marine location near worshippers of Zukala could be a candidate. It would be wise to remember that REH read Spence's The Problem of Atlantis. In it, Spence cites a survey expedition along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge (the "site of choice" amongst "Atlantologists" from Donnelly until long after the vindication of Wegener). A depth of "2500 feet" is quoted over the "M-AR". Howard, reading this, would've had no particular reason to not place a "deep" stretch of ocean anywhere he pleased. The deep seas off of Norway (formerly occupied by Vanaheim) are a perfect example.
That said, I see three likely locations. The ocean/gulf north of Thule/Commoria/Kamelia/Zarfhaana could be divided into "seas". So could the "Islands of the Seas" (Dark Man p.64). This would include, IMO, (to the ethnocentric Muvian priesthood of Xultha) both the Pictish Isles (the Picts are never mentioned, strangely enough, in "IoE") and the "Isles of Aballach" (the "Appalachian" isles of the Thurian Age "Celts", implied by REH's The Dwellers Under the Tombs). Bounded by the "nameless continent" to the south and the "Arctic archipelago" to the north, there's plenty of room for "seas". The other possibility that I considered was the ocean between Mu and the Lemurian Isles (or at least, round about them). The fact that Mu sank long before Atlantis and Lemuria (Dark Man, p. 87 and CoC Del Rey, p.382) compels me to place the "Seas of Falgarai" amongst the "Islands of the Seas".

The problem I have with the placement of the Seas of Falgari in the north Atlantic is due to there being a lack of evidence that they should be place anywhere but "locally"; ie in the Pacific near Zukala's land of Mu. I freely admit that my placement of the Isles of the Sea to the east of Mu is speculation based on access; the most logical place for the isles would be the tops of the Andes Mountains, in much the same way that the Sunset Isles are the tops of the Rocky and Cascade Mountain ranges. Your mileage may vary on that score...
I do wonder where you came up with the name of the Celtic isles as the Isles of Aballach. I'm not familiar with that name and would love for you to enlighten me.

[deuce]

[quote name='Darkstorm Dale' post='69757' date='Jul 8 2007, 06:27 PM']I've never made the claim that Valka and Hotath are "primarily" deities of Mu.[/quote]

Sorry, Dale. It was a rhetorical question. I apologize if I sounded as if I were trying to put words in your mouth. I'd just come back from a benefit show for a friend and his family. My compositional skills were probably not at their best.

[quote]There only appear to be two "universal" gods during the Thurian Age. Valka is the "god of the sea and the land" (according to The Shadow Kingdom) and created the race of Man (Exile of Atlantis). He is mentioned by people from Lemuria, Mu, the Pictish Isles, Atlantis, Valusia, and Zarfhanna in various stories.
Hotath (Hotah is a variant spelling) is also mentioned in a bunch of the stories. (several Kull tales, as well as Isle of the Eons, Curse of the Golden Skull, and Moon of Skulls. Kull curses that Hotath could "doom my soul to everlasting Hell", which raises the notion the Hotath may well be your Thurian Age god of death. It seems to me that you can make a case that Valka/Hotath are a dualistic set of gods; life/death, creative/destructive, etc. Much like Ahura Mazda (Ohrmazd)/Angra Mainyu(Ahriman) in the Zoroastrian faith.
The belief in these two gods seem to be pretty much world-wide.[/quote]

The worship of Valka and Hotath was wide-spread in the "TA", no argument. I don't see how that rules out the (more-or-less) global worship of other deities. I don't think that your "dualism" theory applies. In the Kull yarns, you often hear Valusians refer to the "gods" and also how the "gods" might take offense to some transgression. In dualistic religions (like Zoroastrianism), one god's pleasure is the other god's pain. How would Valka and Hotath (hypothetically) meet in the middle so that they're both pi$$ed? It seems very unlikely that Hotath was the "TA" god of death, since he's stated to be the god of war (Dark Man V3N1, p.67). He's mentioned right alongside Zukala in "TIotE". They're both "gods of death"?

[quote]An untitled Kull story (Riders Beyond the Sunset) describes a scene where Kull swears by Valka, Honen, Holgar, and Hotath. Kull's counselor, Tu, get upset from the blasphemy of mingling deities with heathen gods. So who are these heathen gods?
Kull swears by Honen (Honan) in a couple of stories (RBTS and Swords of the Purple Kingdom). The name also appears in Moon of Skulls as an Atlantean god, So, Honen is Atlantean and/or Pictish (since Men of the Shadows claims that the men of the Atlantean Isles are actually of Pictish origin).[/quote]

The scene from Riders Beyond the Sunrise is interesting. Churchward (whom REH may have read) mentions a Polynesian deity named "Homen", so you might be right on this.


[quote]Kull swears by Holgar the one time, and the name also comes up in The Curse of the Golden Skull, when Rotath of Lemuria curses the world for his death. Kull was a Lemurian galley-slave (later pirate) in his early days, so I imagine that Holgar is a heathen god of Lemurian derivation and that Kull picked up his name at that time. As an interesting aside, Moon of Skulls lists the gods of the Picto-Atlanteans as Valka, Hotath, Honen, and Golgor. I've always wondered if Golgor is the Pictish variant of the god Holgar. I also think that the name of the god Golgor evolved over the millenia and appears in Gods of Bal-Sagoth as the god Gol-goroth. But I digress...
Kull also swears by Helfara at the same time he swears by Hotath in RBTS. The subtext implies that Helfara is linked to Hotath; perhaps he's the Atlantean version of the god of death.[/quote]

Kull may swear by Holgar, but Rotath swears by Helgor. When Rotath cursed, he swore by "Hotath and Helgor", which leads one to speculate... I've always wondered if the Pictish "Golka of the Moon" was a memory of "Golgor/Golgoroth" (which HPL included amongst the ranks of the "Great Old Ones", BTW). Golgor appears to be a "moonish" deity in "TMoS". Couldn't Helfara be a goddess consort to Holgar/Helgor?

[quote]All of this leads us around to the problem of Zukala. There isn't a single mention of this god outside of the Zukala poems and The Isle of the Eons. Even The Curse of the Golden Skull, which lists a huge number of Lemurian gods and/or demon lords (Ra and Ka, Vramma, Jaggta-noga, Kamma, and Kulthas, among others) doesn't mention Zukala, unless he's one of the "gods forgotten even by the priests of Lemuria". To be fair, the list doesn't mention Poseidon either, and he's probably the pre-eminent purely Lemurian god (as per IOTE and Marcher of Valhalla). Every single mention of Zukala in all of Howard's literary output links him to the land of Mu. He may well be the "most high" on Mu, but there is no evidence that he is anything more than a local deity. Nayah's boast that he is "greater than Valka, greater than Hotath or Zukala or Poseidon. I am greater than Xultha, greater than the Unknown God" simply means that they are the most important gods to Nayah of Mu. It doesn't imply that all of these gods are co-equal in any way outside of the land of Mu. All of the evidence that we have links Zukala to Mu.[/quote]

According to Rusty's timeline, REH didn't begin to write about Zukala until early 1928. That's a narrow window for Thurian Age yarns. The Isle of the Eons fits into that window. The fact that Rotath doesn't mention Zukala actually argues in Zukala's favor since Lemuria and Mu are inextricably linked in Howard's writings (especially "TIotE"). If Rotath didn't mention Zukala, then he must have had a good reason. Calling upon Zukala would've just hastened Rotath's doom down upon him more swiftly. Dale, you state that Valka and Hotath "seem to be pretty much world-wide". What deities does Nayah (from "TIotE") compare himself to? Valka, Hotath, Zukala and Poseidon. One could easily make the inference that all four gods that Nayah compares himself to are "world-wide". In 1928, REH had just "added on" Zukala and Neptune/Poseidon to his Thurian Age "pantheon". We know that Poseidon was a god of "world-wide" power from Marchers of Valhalla. He sank Atlantis and Khemu, both located in/on the Atlantic (not Pacific) Ocean. That doesn't sound "local" to me. There's no reason Zukala should be "local" to Mu, either. The three Zukala poems make no reference to Mu. I reread them to make sure. Only "TIotE" connects Zukala with Mu/Lemuria. That's one outta four. IMO, that makes Zukala 25% Muvian. That leaves plenty of Zukala to spread around. If a person were to read, say, Exile of Atlantis, they might think that Valka was only an Atlantean god. Thanks to "TIotE" (amongst other yarns), we know different.

[quote]It seems to me that you are basing your speculation around some really nebulous theories. If you can find any actual evidence that Zukala played a major world-wide role as a Thurian age deity, then I would be more than willing willing to revise my opinion.[/quote]

My "speculation(s)" are "really nebulous"? Dale, that's not very kind. I'd be more than willing to admit that Zukala was a "local" Muvian deity if you could show me where REH said that Thuron/Guron (the priest from The Altar and the Scorpion) was a member of the "Elder Race".

[Rusty Burke]

I'm not gonna wade into this discussion between two heavyweights of Thurian scholarship, just thought I'd toss in an interesting bit from REH's friend Clyde Smith, who, in "So Long the Poet...", his notes for his never-written REH biography, made the cryptic remark: "His stab in the back -- his arrogance -- he, himself, was Zukala --" (Of course, in Post Oaks & Sand Roughs and a few letters, Bob suggests that Clyde could be pretty arrogant, too. But wouldn't we love to know what Clyde meant by this remark?)

Rusty

[deuce]

Thanks a lot for that, Rusty. I had no idea that quote existed. There are many, many things I wish TCS had told us.

[deuce]

What makes me claim that Zukala is a god of Mu is primarily context.
An untitled Kull story (Riders Beyond the Sunset) describes a scene where Kull swears by Valka, All of the evidence that we have links Zukala to Mu.
The problem I have with the placement of the Seas of Falgari in the north Atlantic is due to there being a lack of evidence that they should be place anywhere but "locally"; ie in the Pacific near Zukala's land of Mu. I freely admit that my placement of the Isles of the Sea to the east of Mu is speculation based on access; the most logical place for the isles would be the tops of the Andes Mountains, in much the same way that the Sunset Isles are the tops of the Rocky and Cascade Mountain ranges. Your mileage may vary on that score...
I do wonder where you came up with the name of the Celtic isles as the Isles of Aballach. I'm not familiar with that name and would love for you to enlighten me.

Sorry I took so long to get back to the last bit of your post, Dale. As I said, there is no reason, taking ALL of REH's texts into account, that the "Seas of Falgarai" have to be placed in what is now the "Pacific" Ocean. As I noted, the text says "the Islands of the Seas". What "seas"? Would there be more than one "sea" between Mu (which sank "ages before" Atlantis, and presumably, the Lemurian Isles)? From what REH described, there was a "nameless continent" (where the Lemurians built "entempled ramparts") south and east of the "Sunset Isles" and very likely, judging from The Dwellers Under the Tombs, there was an archipelago a thousand miles east of Pictdom. Plenty of room there for "seas" in that geographical situation. Just like the Irish Sea. Just like the Sea of Japan. Just like the Yellow Sea. Just like the Baltic Sea. Just like the Adriatic Sea. For all we know, there were SEVEN "Seas of Falgarai".

The "Andean Seas" idea is a non-starter, Dale. Nowhere does REH indicate that South America (and especially Central America) was submerged during the Thurian Age. In fact, Gonar indicates otherwise in "MotS". Working from your paradigm, who was there? The "proto-Stygians" were supposedly living in Mu. Were "missionaries for Xultha" ministering to the spiritual needs of Neanderthaloids? My mileage varies.

I admit, I came up with the name for the "Appalachian Isles", Dale. Long ago, I deduced that there was an archipelago centered upon the Appalachians/Alleghenies. Thank you, Gahan Wilson. Thanks to Barry Fell (America BC, Saga America and Bronze Age America), I saw how Celts might be worked into a "pseudo-historical" paradigm (for the New England seaboard). Graham Masterton did the same thing (sort of) in his Wells of Hell novel. I looked at the word "Appalachian". There was the Irish "Emain Ablach". A paradise somewhere over (and sometimes under) the sea. There was the "Welsh" (Cymraeg) "Ynys Afallach". Cognate with "Avalon". The probable homeland of the Ligureans (from "Wolves Beyond the Border), IMO. If that GURPS™ guy can come up with "Khari", I can name the "Isles of Aballach".

[deuce]

Just realized something... In Marchers of Valhalla, Poseidon "Messed With Texas". Big time.