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Maps of the Thurian Age


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#1 Thurkon

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 02:39 AM

I know this was brought up earlier, in that Howard never created an official map of the Thurian contnent of King Kull. The "official" map that appears in the Marvel comics has always been my reference, but upon reading the complete stories and fragments of King Kull I realize one thing:

The map is horribly wrong.

In one fragment, in fact in the only story to really flesh out the locations of the countries in respect to one another, one quickly realizes the Marvel map is very incorrect. The fragment I refer to is the longest of Howard's unpublished Kull fragments, and deals with a Farsunian named Fenar whom Kull chases to the ends of the world to revenge an insult the Farsunian dealt him.

The story, in no lack of detail, describes how Kull chases the man from The City of Wonders east to the Zalgara hills of Valusia, into Zarfhaana, and then east into Grondar and unto the edge of the world. Yet, in the Marvel map, Commoria lays between Zarfhaana and Grondar, which...if we read Howard's story...is simply not the case. How could Roy, Severin and company have made such an egregious mistake? Furthermore, Farsun is stated to be somewhere directly south of Valusia and Grondar, but the Marvel map clearly shows it way southwest of Valusia.

I wonder what they were thinking??

#2 korak

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 09:16 PM

Hey, thurkon! I have noticed over the years that no two Kull maps are alike. The original map was done by Lin Carter in the Lancer paperback KING KULL. The next one was the Marvel version, and then there was a new map done for the Bantam paperback in the late seventies. The Donald Grant edition did not have a map, and then the baen books did not either. Finally, the Kull the Conqueror movie novelization from Tor had yet another version of the map. I am interested in this if you can make heads or tails from them. I will try to find out some more-- get me started with a good hint on it.

#3 korak

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Posted 28 April 2005 - 01:25 AM

Thurkon writes- the story, in no lack of detail, describes how Kull chases the man from The City of Wonders east to the Zalgara hills of Valusia, into Zarfhaana, and then east into Grondar and unto the edge of the world. Yet, in the Marvel map, Commoria lays between Zarfhaana and Grondar, which...if we read Howard's story...is simply not the case. How could Roy, Severin and company have made such an egregious mistake?


I am not sure either. I did a little more homework on this, because I thought that this might be Lin Carter's fault: he might have put Commoria between Zarfhaana and Grondar in the course of his posthumous completion of Howard's fragment. But this was not the case-- his map in KING KULL does not show Commoria at all! He has Valusia, then Zarfhaana, and then Grondar. So it was in fact the map in Kull the Conqueror #2 that first makes this error. In the Bantam edition of the Kull stories, late seventies, done by Tim Kirk, the countries are Valusia/ Zarfhaana/ Grondar, without Commoria in between. On this map, Commoria lies to the north next to Thule. Strangely, on the map in Sean Moore's Kull the Conqueror, Commoria is put back into the odd placement between Zarfhaana and Grondar.

As for Farsun, in the original Lin Carter map, it lies directly below Valusia on the coast of the sea. This is repeated on the Tim Kirk map in the Bantam paperback. It is also directly beneath Valusia on the ocean on the map in the Sean Moore paperback.

Why was Marvel's map screwed up? I can only offer a couple of educated guesses at this point. (1) because Roy and John did not know where to put Commoria and so they just stuck it in someplace, or, more likely (2) they changed the map in order to avoid having to tread on Lin Carter's copyrighted map, since Howard had not made one.

Why did the Sean Moore map revert to half Marvel/ half Carter? Probably more copyright issues, change the map a little so that Tim Kirk or Lin Carter could not sue for royalties. Either that, or some ignoramus tried to collate the two different versions, but did it inaccurately.

#4 Thurkon

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 03:01 PM

Interesting, Korak.

Sounds like Carter's map had it right, at least as accurate as it could be with the scant information we have. Besides the fragment I mentioned earlier, the only other mention of the Thurian continent's geography comes from (1) the essay titled The Hyborian Age, which deals less with the placement of lands on the continent and more with the juxtaposition of the Pictish, Atlantean and Lemurian isles in repect to the Thurian continent, and (2) one of the stories, I forget which, that describes the border strife between Commoria and Valusia, Therefore, somewhere there would have to be a shared border between the two lands...

Edited by Thurkon, 02 May 2005 - 03:02 PM.


#5 korak

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 09:22 PM

Then it sounds like the Tim Kirk version done in the Bantam edition of KULL may be the best overall.

Interestingly, Carter started the tradition of placing excerpts from THE HYBORIAN AGE as prologue/ epilogue bookends in Kull compilations. This has continued in all versions to date, even though Carter's fragment completions were stripped from all but the Lancer edition.

#6 Strom

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Posted 02 May 2005 - 11:14 PM

I posted on this subject in another thread and I can't find it, but in the original Kull #1 Marvel states that in Kull #2 they will have a new and updated map that corrects the inaccurate map by Lin Carter in the Lancer paperback. Also, the map wasn't signed by Severin so I don't know if he was the creator of that map. As mentioned, that map (from Kull #2) is used throughout the various Marvel Kull series and mini-series from that date on. I'll try and find that post...

In the 1967 Lancer complilation of Kull stories, King Kull, Lin Carter (editor of the book) drew a map of Kulls world. In the 1971 Marvel comic Kull the Conqueror, issue #1, they state that a map of King Kull's world is being drafted and will be available in issue #2. They even say the map "will be supplanting the less complete one in the Lancer paperback volume King Kull." In issue #2 in the back is a map that is not credited and is the map Marvel uses throughout the years in all their Kull comics.
In comparing the two it looks like Carter's map does not include the countries of Thule, Commoria, Kamelia or the Lemuran Isles. The Marvel map also includes the unexplored land south of Verulia, Kamelia and Thurania. The artist's for the comic were Marie and John Severin and I can only assume they drew the map.


How did Carter miss all those countries?

Edited by Strom, 02 May 2005 - 11:22 PM.

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#7 korak

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 12:59 AM

Strom writes- How did Carter miss all those countries?


Drawing a map of this series is difficult, because there is no a lot of geographical data given in the tales in anything like a precise form. Carter's map is more of a close-up map of the Valusia area, which is one main reason it does not have several countries, such as the Pictish Isles and Atlantis, which he indicates by an arrow pointing west. he probably figured it was better to be conservative and only cover part of the world than to draw an elaborate map like the Marvel version and make goof-ups, which they did, as has been pointed out above.

So the Marvel map has been shown to not only be different from the others, but to be inaccurate. That is why I now think that Tim Kirk's map is the best one. It is also the one that has the most beautiful decorations, and it does have the entire world shown, including Atlantis and the Pictish Isles.

#8 Dragon Girl

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 03:35 PM

All of which goes to show: if you're creating a fantasy world, make a map to go along with it so that other people won't mess it up later.
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#9 Ironhand

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Posted 09 May 2005 - 07:46 AM

All of which goes to show: if you're creating a fantasy world, make a map to go along with it so that other people won't mess it up later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


According to REH, that's exactly why he drew himself a map of Hyboria. Maybe he even confused himself when writing of Kull's Thurian world.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
"... you speak of Venarium familiarly. Perhaps you were there?"
"I was," grunted [Conan]. "I was one of the horde that swarmed over the hills. I hadn't yet seen fifteen snows, but already my name was repeated about the council fires." - "Beyond the Black River", by Robert E. Howard

Read my Conan screenplays at The Scrolls of Ironhand (in particular my transcription of THE FROST GIANT'S DAUGHTER in Act II of "The Snow Devil") at
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#10 Mondas

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 10:32 PM

Hello. I am new to this forum and this is my very first post.

I have been looking at the map I found at Dark Storm Legends site. http://www.dodgenet....lossom/Katl.htm And after reading Howards description of the Thurian continent I know its way off. Now howard never made a map like he did for the Conan series. There is not even a focal point for the reader to even try to make heads or tails from it. So what I did was put in my focal point and the maps starts to make a little bit of sence.
First. howard says in the Hyborian Age Essay that when the cataclysm happened the Pictish Isles sank and they began a new country which howard says was the southern frontier of Valusia. If we place these Pictish isles along the mid-alantic ridge then we can see how Valusia would have encompassed the Aquilonian region. Thule, Kamelia and Commoria would become parts of northern europe. Grondor would be eastern europe and the 'Lost Lands' would be parts of north africa and the mediterrian sea. and the World's End would be the russian steppe. etc. Lemuria wouldn't even be on the map at all. I always found it strange that where the map says Atlantis is has never matched. (Being the Atlantis enthusist I am) So I always pondered where the regions of this map lay. Because no matter how you figure it Atlantis always showed up where Iceland is and Howard says in the Hyborian Age Essay that it sank. So if we use the Mid-Atlantic ridge as a focal point for the pictish isles then it becomes clear that the Azores was actually the Atlantis in which Kull came from. Or if we use Miller and Clark's map from THE HYBORIAN AGE website http://hyboria.xoth....ps/original.gif the landmass it pushed out further making The mid-atlantic ridge Kull's atlantis and the pictish isles could easily be islands off the north american coast or possible newfoundland. But I am going to use the hand drawn maps by Howard himself as found in THE COMING OF CONAN THE CIMMERIAN Book as a reference. Now if we choose not to use the mid-atlantic ridge as a focal point we can still come to this conclusion by using the river mouth just under Verulia which in turn would be the Straits of Gibralter or a corrosponding area. Using this river as a focal point we can still come to this conclusion and thus the Thurian continent would become just the continent of Europe and not an even larger continent. I say this because Lemuria is in the wrong place too. If this map is the Europe/Asian landmass then Lemuria didn't sink at all but became part of a larger landmass but howard states that this land also sank but on the map it appears to be in the extreme north which contradicts Howard. In the Hyborian Age Essay Howard states that the Cimmerians are decendents of the Atlanteans. And people fleeing a sinking atlantis would naturally sail to the Farsun or verulia areas, and also to the Valusia/Aquilonia area as Kull did If my theory is close to correct, This puts it very close to Cimmeria if not in Cimmeria itself. Now of course, geological upheavels play into this as well when creating new landmasses and sinking old ones. But I'm am confident in using the Mid-atlantic ridge as a focal point for the Pictish Isles. So to conclude- Valusia covers the Aquilonia area. :)

BTW: I always heard that Kull was an ancestor of Conan's 8000 years before Conan's time. If this was a comic invention so be it. But If it was a creation of howard then I find it amazing that Kull ruled an area of land that his decendant would come to rule. :)

Edited by Mondas, 12 July 2005 - 01:29 AM.

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#11 Mondas

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Posted 15 July 2005 - 02:03 AM

:)
I have been looking at this map. http://www.dodgenet....lossom/Katl.htm And after reading Howards description of the Thurian continent I know its way off. Now howard never made a map like he did for the Conan series. There is not even a focal point for the reader to even try to make heads or tails from it. So what I did was put in my focal point and the maps starts to make a little bit of sence.
First. howard says in the Hyborian Age Essay that when the cataclysm happened the Pictish Isles sank and they began a new country which howard says was the southern frontier of Valusia. If we place these Pictish isles along the mid-alantic ridge then we can see how Valusia would have encompassed the Aquilonian region. Thule, Kamelia and Commoria would become parts of northern europe. Grondor would be eastern europe and the 'Lost Lands' would be parts of north africa and the mediterrian sea. and the World's End would be the russian steppe. etc. Lemuria wouldn't even be on the map at all. I always found it strange that where the map says Atlantis is has never matched. (Being the Atlantis enthusist I am) So I always pondered where the regions of this map lay. Because no matter how you figure it Atlantis always showed up where Iceland is and Howard says in the Hyborian Age Essay that it sank. So if we use the Mid-Atlantic ridge as a focal point for the pictish isles then it becomes clear that the Azores was actually the Atlantis in which Kull came from. Or if we use Miller and Clark's map from THE HYBORIAN AGE website http://hyboria.xoth....ps/original.gif the landmass it pushed out further making The mid-atlantic ridge Kull's atlantis and the pictish isles could easily be islands off the north american coast newfoundland or the Nova Scotia area. But I am going to use the hand drawn maps by Howard himself as found in THE COMING OF CONAN THE CIMMERIAN Book as a reference. Now if we choose not to use the mid-atlantic ridge as a focal point we can still come to this conclusion by using the river mouth just under Verulia which in turn would be the Straits of Gibralter or a corrosponding area. Using this river as a focal point we can still come to this conclusion and thus the Thurian continent would become just the continent of Europe and not an even larger continent. I say this because Lemuria is in the wrong place too. If this map is the Europe/Asian landmass then Lemuria didn't sink at all but became part of a larger landmass but howard states that this land also sank but on the map it appears to be in the extreme north which contradicts Howard. In the Hyborian Age Essay Howard states that the Cimmerians are decendents of the Atlanteans. And people fleeing a sinking atlantis would naturally sail to the Farsun or verulia areas, and also to the Valusia/Aquilonia area as Kull did If my theory is close to correct, This puts it very close to Cimmeria if not in Cimmeria itself. Now of course, geological upheavels play into this as well when creating new landmasses and sinking old ones. But I'm am confident in using the Mid-atlantic ridge as a focal point for the Pictish Isles. So to conclude- Valusia covers the Aquilonia area. :)

Edited by Mondas, 15 July 2005 - 05:16 AM.

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#12 Guest_Brule_*

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 07:44 AM

http://www.dodgenet....lossom/Katl.htm

#13 Emirikol

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Posted 10 November 2006 - 11:47 PM

I did up a very crude drawing of 1.5k A.A. map. I'm wondering how the transition between the cataclysms that shaped the world woudl fit in. Any thoughts?
http://www.enworld.o...860#post3167860

jh

#14 Almuric

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 04:21 AM

Marvel Comics also did one which they printed with some of their early '80s Kull issues. I seem to recall it covered just about everything. Sorry, I don't have a scan.
"It is more than a mortal sea. Your hands are red with blood and you follow a red sea-path, yet the fault is not wholly with you. Almighty God, when will the reign of blood cease?"

Turlogh shook his head. "Not so long as the race lasts."


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#15 Solomon_skin

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 06:12 AM

Marvel Comics also did one which they printed with some of their early '80s Kull issues. I seem to recall it covered just about everything. Sorry, I don't have a scan.


i have CBR's of all the old Kull comics, I noticed that the City of Wonders is located farther west than the one on dodgenet.

http://img138.images...l02rmlpbnq9.jpg

#16 Almuric

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 06:29 AM

Thanks for the map, Solomons_skin! :D
"It is more than a mortal sea. Your hands are red with blood and you follow a red sea-path, yet the fault is not wholly with you. Almighty God, when will the reign of blood cease?"

Turlogh shook his head. "Not so long as the race lasts."


--- The Dark Man, by Robert E. Howard

#17 elegos7

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 08:07 AM

I did up a very crude drawing of 1.5k A.A. map. I'm wondering how the transition between the cataclysms that shaped the world woudl fit in. Any thoughts?
http://www.enworld.o...860#post3167860

jh



Could you post your map on this site as well? Somehow I cannot redistrate on that other site.

#18 deuce

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Posted 11 November 2006 - 08:38 AM

Actually,all 3 maps (Carter, Marvel and Kirk) have serious problems. Kirk's is easily the best. I've got a long post (#4) about his map on the "Shadow Kingdom" thread. I discuss where he went wrong and where everything ought to go, IMO. All with latitude and longitude. Posted Image
One of the main sources for Thurian Age geography is the untitled fragment often called "Riders Beyond the Sunrise"(DelRey "Kull",pp65-86). In it, Kull rides from Valusia, City of Wonders, to the River Stagus. On pp 75-76, Kelkor gives a rough description of the lands to the south. Reading it will give y'all a better idea of why I disagree with the Carter and Marvel maps.

Carter Map ('67): First off, this map doesn't even have Thule, Kamelia and Commoria. They're not "off" the map, they're just not there. Farsun (see my "Shadow Kingdom" post) is too small and too easterly. Verulia, according to "Riders", just can't be where Carter sticks it. "The Lesser Kingdoms" are called "the lesser principalities" in "Riders". Once again, Carter violates the text. Zarfhaana, Grondar and the Stagus are actually pretty close to accurate.

Marvel Map ('76?): The position and size of Atlantis isn't bad. The overall size and shape of the Thurian supercontinent verges on the ridiculous. Basically, the size/shape of the Thurian continent was the same as that of the "Hyborian" continent. The main difference was in the northwest corner. In Thurian times, all of what would later be Nordheim and Hyperborea was under water. So, once again, Farsun's too small, too easterly. Verulia is once again about 500 mi. south of where it should be. For good measure, Marvel stuck in KAMELIA, too. Thurania is too small. It should share a border with Farsun. Grondar, in comparative terms, is too big. "Deserts" or the World's End: there is a mountain range on the western side of the Stagus. No way. "Non-Thurian Kingdom" or the land of the proto-Stygians, is too small. It should encompass most of what is now China and Indo-China. The "Old Kosala" kingdom isn't there at all. "Pre-Human Civilization" should lie directly south of Valusia, where Stygia is in Hyborian times. The Lemurian Isles should be farther south and east, out in the mid-Pacific.

Hope this helps y'all out. Posted Image

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#19 deuce

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 01:05 AM

Hey, y'all! What, I go to all this work and no one even responds to say I'm full of $H1T? BTW, isn't it kinda f***k'd up that EIGHTY YEARS after Kull hit Weird Tales™, we STILL don't have a good,solid Thurian Age map?

Edited by deuce, 12 November 2006 - 01:06 AM.

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#20 Kortoso

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Posted 12 November 2006 - 06:55 PM

Hey, y'all! What, I go to all this work and no one even responds to say I'm full of $H1T? BTW, isn't it kinda f***k'd up that EIGHTY YEARS after Kull hit Weird Tales™, we STILL don't have a good,solid Thurian Age map?

Take it easy there, deuce.