45 replies to this topic

[Amra]

Between Xaltotun and Toth-Amon, who is the better between the two sorcerors? On second thought, who proved to be the best sorceror/mage/wizard during the entire Hyborian era? Any thoughts or ideas on who may have been Conan's near equal in strength and swordsmanship? Howardian minds want to know.........

Edited by Arias de Camp, 26 April 2005 - 09:02 PM.

[Swiftsteel]

Well, I guess in terms of what Howard himself wrote, it's Xaltotun hands-down, with Thugra-Khotan as a close second. Within the realm of the De Camp/Carter/Marvel Comics adaptations however, it's a fair bet that Thoth Amon gets the 1st Place 'Most Evilest and Diabolicalest Hyborean Age Sorcerer Of All Time' Award!!! For what it's worth, I'm a Thoth-Amon man myself! I basically discovered Conan via the Marvel Comics adaptations in the late 70's, so I guess the character of Thoth as portrayed by Buscema/Chan with the green robe and the horns and all of that has a deeper visual resonance for me.

For sheer creepiness, Zogar Sag has to get honourary mention as well.

Edited by Swiftsteel, 26 April 2005 - 09:48 PM.

[Strom]

I would definitely say - Thoth-Amon!!!

From the legend Thoth has already craved out for himself -evidenced by his role and reputation in "The God in the Bowl" to the longevity and resourcefulness of his actions years later in "The Phoenix on the Sword" - Thoth has been ravaging the Hyborian nations for years! Plus, Thoth was at the pinnacle of The Black Ring - the world's most feared and potent magic cult!

Xaltotun on the other hand came from Acheron. Acheron was before the Hyborian Age. And he just wasn't around long enough - in the Hyborian Age - to compare to Thoth.

I also loved the Marvel rendition of Thoth and consider King Conan #1 -4 some of the best Thoth/Conan tales by Marvel!

But, what about Epemitreus the Sage.... not sure Thoth could take him down!

[Orkin]

But, what about Epemitreus the Sage.... not sure Thoth could take him down! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...especially if he had Conan's help!

[SkiSwope]

To jog some memories, here is a list of some of Howard's sorcerors (most, but not all, of them are evil):

* Kalanthes of Hanumar (Ibis) - God in the Bowl
* Yara, high priest in Zamora - Tower of the Elephant
* Nabonidus, the "Red Priest" - Rogues in the House
* Natohk, the Veiled One (Thugra Khotan resurrected) - Black Colossus
* Thoth-Amon (Set) - God in the Bowl, Phoenix on the Sword, & HotD (mentioned)
* Tsotha-Lanti (Set) - Scarlet Citadel
* Pelias (Ishtar) - Scarlet Citadel
* Salome, witch of Khauran - A Witch Shall Be Born
* Khemsa, the Black Seers, and the Master of Yimsha - People of the Black Circle
* Xaltotun of Acheron - Hour of the Dragon
* Thutothmes (Set) - Hour of the Dragon
* Hadrathus of Asura - Hour of the Dragon
* Four Yellow Khitans - Hour of the Dragon

Hope this helps.
Ski

[Strom]

To jog some memories, here is a list of some of Howard's sorcerors (most, but not all, of them are evil):

* Kalanthes of Hanumar (Ibis) - God in the Bowl
* Yara, high priest in Zamora - Tower of the Elephant
* Nabonidus, the "Red Priest" - Rogues in the House
* Natohk, the Veiled One (Thugra Khotan resurrected) - Black Colossus
* Thoth-Amon (Set) - God in the Bowl, Phoenix on the Sword, & HotD (mentioned)
* Tsotha-Lanti (Set) - Scarlet Citadel
* Pelias (Ishtar) - Scarlet Citadel
* Salome, witch of Khauran - A Witch Shall Be Born
* Khemsa, the Black Seers, and the Master of Yimsha - People of the Black Circle
* Xaltotun of Acheron - Hour of the Dragon
* Thutothmes (Set) - Hour of the Dragon
* Hadrathus of Asura - Hour of the Dragon
* Four Yellow Khitans - Hour of the Dragon

Hope this helps.
Ski

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Great list Ski - thanks!

[Strom]

But, what about Epemitreus the Sage.... not sure Thoth could take him down!?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...especially if he had Conan's help!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was suggesting a sorcerer v. sorcerer duel for the title of Supreme Sorcerer Select of Exultant Transcendence or SSSET.

But, how would Thoth had changed his spell in "The Phoenix on the Sword" had he known Epemitreus was involved? He did summon a demon and chose his words very carefully...

[Thuriansuz]

I always loved Pelias. I think that him being 'friendly' to Conan actually made him scarier. He was a bit more fleshed out and sympathetic. When we first meet him he comes off as a pretty nice guy, all things considered. I thought, "Here's a good ally for Conan. Probably a good guy to have a drink with too."

After that final demented scene, I was rethinking my previous estimation.
In Howard's world, wizards are almost an alien species due to the powers they traffic with and the perspective they hold.

I think Pelias demonstrated that better than the more blatant 'evil' sorcerors.

[Kane]

Between Xaltotun and Toth-Amon, who is the better between the two sorcerors?

Between these two, IMO, the hands down winner would have to be Xaltotun.
While Thoth-amon appears in one story and is mentioned in another, he was only human and had the limitations that are incurrant on humans using magic.
Xaltotun was a member of the race that created the Acheron Empire. A race of beings that still had the blood of Set runjing through their veins. as such they would have been a more powerful magic using race. with little or no limitations on their abilities to harness the magical forces.

[Jaybird]

Yara had the help of an Alien. Tough to beat that!

[Strom]

Between these two, IMO, the hands down winner would have to be Xaltotun.
While Thoth-amon appears in one story and is mentioned in another, he was only human and had the limitations that are incurrant on humans using magic.
Xaltotun was a member of the race that created the Acheron Empire. A race of beings that still had the blood of Set runjing through their veins. as such they would have been a more powerful magic using race. with little or no limitations on their abilities to harness the magical forces.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

At the height of Acheron's power I would agree with you but in the context of the Hyborian age and the fact that we never witnessed any more powerful magic than what Thoth displayed from old Xaltotun, I would say Thoth would be the more powerful wizard. Acheron did fall to the barbarians due to the fact their magic was fading. A resurrected Xaltotun and a Thoth Amon at the height of his power would probably be equal in magical ability and strength - but the edge, IMO, would go to Thoth Amon.

[Oinosthor]

I would go for Thoth-Amon, I don't like him, but he is the most evil and powerfull Sorceror.

[Ironhand]

Thoth-Amon is a better survivor than Xaltotun. X was done in by a cabal of Stygian wizards, and was later resurrected by a more "modern" wizard, and given his most powerful magical instrument as a freebie. In a similar situation, T-A, deprived of his most powerful magical instrument, fled, eaked out a living as an ordinary human being, survived slavery, and reclaimed his power by his own efforts.

[Jaybird]

Very good point about T-A Ironhand

[Strom]

Thoth-Amon is a better survivor than Xaltotun.? X was done in by a cabal of Stygian wizards, and was later resurrected by a more "modern" wizard, and given his most powerful magical instrument as a freebie.? In a similar situation, T-A, deprived of his most powerful magical instrument, fled, eaked out a living as an ordinary human being, survived slavery, and reclaimed his power by his own efforts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's what I was trying to say Ironhand. Xaltotun would've relied on his superior magical strength because magic was stronger then. In the day of Acheron he would of been mighty indeed. IMO, Thoth was a more resourceful wizard that also was powerful but lived in a time that demanded more than socereous strength but stealth, guile and ambition. Mayhap, this would?ve given Thoth the edge.

Edited by Strom, 27 May 2005 - 01:29 AM.

[Brule]

This is of corse considering that Thoth Amon has the "Black Ring" and Xaltotum has "The Heart Of Ahriman".
I have to go with Xaltotum because he know ancient secrets of acheron that have been lost for centuries.
And its said in "Conan And The Grim Grey God" that Xaltotum has more power than of twenty stygan sorcerers.

[Kieran]

Thoth Amon was overly dependant on his ring. Xaltotum anyday

[Melkorus]

I have to say Xaltotum, because I know very little of Thoth.

I have question however, what story made Thoth so famous? As far as I can recall, he was mentioned in "Phoenix On The Sword", and that was all. It didn't really portray his "greatness" in that story. The rest of the stories I don't remember even mentioning his name. Was he also the wizard from Conan: The Destroyer movie? --- that was nothing great as well, me thinks.

So, what really made Thoth Amon so famous, some other writer aside from REH?

[tofu]

Xaltotum indefineatly.Question should be Xaltotum or Akivasha that requires some thinking?