45 replies to this topic

[tofu]

Of this list of Hyboria Wizards who do you think is the best/worst.


Akiro
Hadrathus illutionist of Asura
Khemsa
Pelius
Tamar Shar Khun
Thoth Amon
Thutothemes
Thulsa Doom
Tsotha-Lanti
Zelata the Witch.

[Strom]

I have to say Xaltotum, because I know very little of Thoth.

I have question however, what story made Thoth so famous? As far as I can recall, he was mentioned in "Phoenix On The Sword", and that was all. It didn't really portray his "greatness" in that story. The rest of the stories I don't remember even mentioning his name. Was he also the wizard from Conan: The Destroyer movie? --- that was nothing great as well, me thinks.

So, what really made Thoth Amon so famous, some other writer aside from REH?

Welcome to the site Melkorus.

Thoth was more than mentioned in "The Phoenix on the Sword" - you will have to re-read that story as Thoth tells of his highs and lows. In "The Phoenix on the Sword" Thoth conjures a demon from thin air like you and me take a breath - no small wizard trick there! Where else in the Howard canon does a sorcerer do that? Thoth Amon is mentioned in 'The God in the Bowl" as well, since he is the one who sent the "God" to Katlanthes, priest of Ibis, to murder him. Add to this his knowledge and power of control over the God in the Bowl and Thoth is a sorcerer of extreme power and might.

Plus, Thoth is the leader of the all powerful and evil sorcerous coven - Stygian Black Ring! The power behind the throne in mighty Stygia.

I would say in the time of Conan, there is no more a fearful and powerful sorcerer than Thoth-Amon - a evil and black hearted stygian if there ever was one. He is also a survivor who does what he must, to survive. If Thoth fought Xaltotun in Conan's time then it would be a mighty battle of dark sorcery but in the end I would say Thoth would rise from the melee as the victor. In the Hyborian Age, who would rival Thoth-Amon, the Ring of Set and Stygia?

Nuff said!

Edited by Strom, 12 November 2006 - 12:25 AM.

[Brule]

Well Melkorus I dont know all the story's that he is in but I know a few. He's in "Conan the Valorous" By JMR,
And "Conan And The Emerald Lotus" By John Haking, and "Conan And The Grim Grey God" by Sean A. Moore. That one is sweet he acually battle's him in there and also Xaltotum's brother is in there The Warlord of Acheron.

Tofu's first Q, No doubt Xaltotum he was the ruler of acheron. Second Q, I think it would be between Thoth Amon and Thulsa doom. But i thaught that was Kull's nemisis. I dont recall remembering "Tsotha-Lanti" wich story was he in?

Brule

[Almuric]

Tsotha-lanti was in "The Scarlet Citadel".

Thoth-Amon seems to avoid direct confrontations with his foes, so he might at least survive a confrontation with Xaltotun. Plus, the Heart of Ahriman is Xaltotun's kryptonite, so Thoth has another advantage, so long as he doesn't misplace his ring.

[Darkstorm Dale]

Robert E. Howard settles this question.
Hadrathus in describing Xaltotun's power states "we have knowledge of all the wizards of the East, who are greater than the wizards of the West. And not one of them but would be a straw in the wind before the black might of Xaltotun." The Stygians, including Thoth-Amon and Thutothmes, are the wizards of the West.

[Brule]

Robert E. Howard settles this question.
Hadrathus in describing Xaltotun's power states "we have knowledge of all the wizards of the East, who are greater than the wizards of the West. And not one of them but would be a straw in the wind before the black might of Xaltotun." The Stygians, including Thoth-Amon and Thutothmes, are the wizards of the West.

Point well made

Brule

[PainBrush]

But ALL bow before the awesome dark powers of ..............Tim the Enchanter !!!

[Melkorus]

I have to say Xaltotum, because I know very little of Thoth.

I have question however, what story made Thoth so famous? As far as I can recall, he was mentioned in "Phoenix On The Sword", and that was all. It didn't really portray his "greatness" in that story. The rest of the stories I don't remember even mentioning his name. Was he also the wizard from Conan: The Destroyer movie? --- that was nothing great as well, me thinks.

So, what really made Thoth Amon so famous, some other writer aside from REH?

Welcome to the site Melkorus.

Thoth was more than mentioned in "The Phoenix on the Sword" - you will have to re-read that story as Thoth tells of his highs and lows. In "The Phoenix on the Sword" Thoth conjures a demon from thin air like you and me take a breath - no small wizard trick there! Where else in the Howard canon does a sorcerer do that? Thoth Amon is mentioned in 'The God in the Bowl" as well, since he is the one who sent the "God" to Katlanthes, priest of Ibis, to murder him. Add to this his knowledge and power of control over the God in the Bowl and Thoth is a sorcerer of extreme power and might.

Plus, Thoth is the leader of the all powerful and evil sorcerous coven - Stygian Black Ring! The power behind the throne in mighty Stygia.

I would say in the time of Conan, there is no more a fearful and powerful sorcerer than Thoth-Amon - a evil and black hearted stygian if there ever was one. He is also a survivor who does what he must, to survive. If Thoth fought Xaltotun in Conan's time then it would be a mighty battle of dark sorcery but in the end I would say Thoth would rise from the melee as the victor. In the Hyborian Age, who would rival Thoth-Amon, the Ring of Set and Stygia?

Nuff said!

Thanks Strom, you save the day for 3rd time now (thanks for that country list)

It's true, if you really think about it Thoth does seem like impressive wizard. Maybe because his deeds were "told" or shown indirectly (for the most part) is why I really don't see him as all that powerful. I mean, he did great things...at least he says he did, but we don't really witness any of that in-action. Even that one demon he summoned from the thin air was defeated with no great battle...well maybe it was deady, but not that "great" - Conan struggles more with wild apes and other natural/un-natural creatures. I say Xaltotum would own him still I can't help it but think that REH didn't really make Thoth Amon to be that great and he was raised to the power (for the lack of better expression) by other writers.

When I think about it, whatever that guy's name from Tower Of The Elephant is, he would be the ultimate winner if he was to have access to that elephant-like god-like thing's powers...I think, out of all creatures and men mentioned in any of REH's stories about Conan, that elephant is the most epic and divine, and if I may say, most powerful, hence he's master would be the most powerful Wizard . Me thinks.

Edited by Melkorus, 12 November 2006 - 08:25 AM.

[Strom]

Robert E. Howard settles this question.
Hadrathus in describing Xaltotun's power states "we have knowledge of all the wizards of the East, who are greater than the wizards of the West. And not one of them but would be a straw in the wind before the black might of Xaltotun." The Stygians, including Thoth-Amon and Thutothmes, are the wizards of the West.

Wouldn't Thoth-Amon be a wizard of the South? Hadrathus does make the stipulation, "We are sons of the East, not the South, " I would definitely say Stygia would be considered south even by Eastern wizards. Also, Conan was asking for any wizard's sorcery to fight against Xaltotuns and I'm not sure Thoth-Amon and Stygia would even be considered in that context. Can you see Thoth helping Conan or Xaltotun? My money is Stygia, the Black Ring and Thoth would rather side with Xaltotun then remotely help Aquilonia.

Plus, Hadrathus defeats Xaltotun. My only point is with magic, there is always a exception or a stipulation to any blanket statements - even the one made by Hadrathus in your quote above.

It's true, if you really think about it Thoth does seem like impressive wizard. Maybe because his deeds were "told" or shown indirectly (for the most part) is why I really don't see him as all that powerful. I mean, he did great things...at least he says he did, but we don't really witness any of that in-action. Even that one demon he summoned from the thin air was defeated with no great battle...well maybe it was deady, but not that "great" - Conan struggles more with wild apes and other natural/un-natural creatures. I say Xaltotum would own him still I can't help it but think that REH didn't really make Thoth Amon to be that great and he was raised to the power (for the lack of better expression) by other writers.

The only way Conan defeated the demon from "The Phoenix on the Sword" is because of the magical help from long dead Epemitreus who made the symbol of the Phoenix on the sword Conan used to defeat the demon. Without that magical help, Conan would've died like cattle in the slaughter house.

But, that does bring up a interesting point. Epemitreus comes from beyond the grave to save Conan. Epemitrues admits that "I have felt the foul presence of Set's neophyte." That would be Thoth. Powerful indeed, to bring a 1,500 year old dead Epemitrues shade to help Conan.

This is real fun and I'm sure no answer is 100% right since Howard never had the combatants go at it - but it sure would've been great if he had.

[BIFlight]

Strom made a good point about Thoth's power, but consider:

Thoth-Amon was the leader of a circle of mages, and was capable of some pretty potent feats, including being the power behind the throne of a powerful, but existing, empire.

Xaltotun was recreating his original empire through magic alone.

Thoth-Amon could handle dangerous artifacts and bind demons to his will: Xaltotun could, with a little work, reshape the land and recreate cities that had been gone for millenia!

In my mind, that makes Thoth-Amon a lightweight by comparison. Thoth-Amon is the greatest sorcerer of the "modern" age in the Conan cycles, but as is a common theme with the work of Howard, Lovecraft, Smith, etc., there "used" to be mages who were much, MUCH more powerful...

[Darkstorm Dale]

Robert E. Howard settles this question.
Hadrathus in describing Xaltotun's power states "we have knowledge of all the wizards of the East, who are greater than the wizards of the West. And not one of them but would be a straw in the wind before the black might of Xaltotun." The Stygians, including Thoth-Amon and Thutothmes, are the wizards of the West.

Wouldn't Thoth-Amon be a wizard of the South? Hadrathus does make the stipulation, "We are sons of the East, not the South, " I would definitely say Stygia would be considered south even by Eastern wizards.

This makes sense only if you take it out of the context of the scene that Howard wrote. Hadrathus is located in Tarantia, in the nation of Aquilonia. The paragraph begins by Hadratus refuting the notion that the Asuran's have anything to do with ancient Stygian serpent-worship (Set-worship). He states that his people hale from the East (Venhya lies to the east of Aquilonia), not the South (Stygia lies to the south of Aquilonia) and that the wizards of the East are greater than the wizards of the West (this last piece is spoken from a "continental" viewpoint). Since He is referring to the Stygians earlier in the paragraph, then then "wizards of the West" must be the Stygians or this paragraph is badly written.

Also, Conan was asking for any wizard's sorcery to fight against Xaltotuns and I'm not sure Thoth-Amon and Stygia would even be considered in that context. Can you see Thoth helping Conan or Xaltotun? My money is Stygia, the Black Ring and Thoth would rather side with Xaltotun then remotely help Aquilonia.

What Conan asks is if there is any wizard in the WORLD who can defeat Xaltotun and Hadrathus says no, the priests of Asura would know about anyone that powerful. Howard didn't write it in any manner that excludes the Stygians from Conan's question. So you are really just projecting your own bias onto the material. However, just for the sake of argument, I should point out that the Sygian wizards are shown by Howard to be mostly concerned with amassing POWER. Thutothmes wants the Heart to supplant Thoth-Amon as the top-dog. When Thoth-Amon lost his ring (the base of his power), the Stygian wizards sought his death and forced him to flee from Sygia. Those guys would be seriously P.O.ed if a new wizard suddenly appeared to usurp their positions. The Black Ring wouldn't fight for Conan, true enough, but they wouldn't stand by and watch their positions and power erode either.

Plus, Hadrathus defeats Xaltotun. My only point is with magic, there is always a exception or a stipulation to any blanket statements - even the one made by Hadrathus in your quote above.

To be fair, Hadrathus didn't know that the Heart had left Xaltotun's possession when he related the above stuff to Conan. The Heart was Xaltotun's Achilles Heel, after all. I think it's interesting that Howard made Xaltotun so powerful that he didn't really use the Heart in his magic, just kept it safe so that no one else could use it against him.

Edited by Darkstorm Dale, 12 November 2006 - 08:44 PM.

[Strom]

Robert E. Howard settles this question.
Hadrathus in describing Xaltotun's power states "we have knowledge of all the wizards of the East, who are greater than the wizards of the West. And not one of them but would be a straw in the wind before the black might of Xaltotun." The Stygians, including Thoth-Amon and Thutothmes, are the wizards of the West.

Wouldn't Thoth-Amon be a wizard of the South? Hadrathus does make the stipulation, "We are sons of the East, not the South, " I would definitely say Stygia would be considered south even by Eastern wizards.

This makes sense only if you take it out of the context of the scene that Howard wrote. Hadrathus is located in Tarantia, in the nation of Aquilonia. The paragraph begins by Hadratus refuting the notion that the Asuran's have anything to do with ancient Stygian serpent-worship (Set-worship). He states that his people hale from the East (Venhya lies to the east of Aquilonia), not the South (Stygia lies to the south of Aquilonia) and that the wizards of the East are greater than the wizards of the West (this last piece is spoken from a "continental" viewpoint). Since He is referring to the Stygians earlier in the paragraph, then then "wizards of the West" must be the Stygians or this paragraph is badly written.

Also, Conan was asking for any wizard's sorcery to fight against Xaltotuns and I'm not sure Thoth-Amon and Stygia would even be considered in that context. Can you see Thoth helping Conan or Xaltotun? My money is Stygia, the Black Ring and Thoth would rather side with Xaltotun then remotely help Aquilonia.

What Conan asks is if there is any wizard in the WORLD who can defeat Xaltotun and Hadrathus says no, the priests of Asura would know about anyone that powerful. Howard didn't write it in any manner that excludes the Stygians from Conan's question. So you are really just projecting your own bias onto the material. However, just for the sake of argument, I should point out that the Sygian wizards are shown by Howard to be mostly concerned with amassing POWER. Thutothmes wants the Heart to supplant Thoth-Amon as the top-dog. When Thoth-Amon lost his ring (the base of his power), the Stygian wizards sought his death and forced him to flee from Sygia. Those guys would be seriously P.O.ed if a new wizard suddenly appeared to usurp their positions. The Black Ring wouldn't fight for Conan, true enough, but they wouldn't stand by and watch their positions and power erode either.

Plus, Hadrathus defeats Xaltotun. My only point is with magic, there is always a exception or a stipulation to any blanket statements - even the one made by Hadrathus in your quote above.

To be fair, Hadrathus didn't know that the Heart had left Xaltotun's possession when he related the above stuff to Conan. The Heart was Xaltotun's Achilles Heel, after all. I think it's interesting that Howard made Xaltotun so powerful that he didn't really use the Heart in his magic, just kept it safe so that no one else could use it against him.

Great post Dale - I see what you are saying.

I had a whole big post written but then I lost it while I had to do an errand for the wife. I blame Xaltotun. Bottom line - Conan has it right when he said the priests of Asura are shrewd. Do you feel Hadrathus could beat Thoth-Amon? That is what Hadrathus is implying. I don't think he could defeat Thoth-Amon the Lord of the Black ring. In other words, maybe his opinion is biased. I do like how Howard made a point to mention Thoth-Amon and reiterate Thoth's rank and power in this story while at the same time showing the jealousy and ego other sorcerers have for Thoth-Amon - they all think they are as powerful as Thoth-Amon. But, alas they are not.

Xaltotun is powerful but history is not kind to him. Xaltotun ran from barbarians in Phyton and has been defeated technically the same way twice. He lacks the lust for power Thoth-Amon craves and while Xaltotun hesitates to use his power, we all saw how quickly and effortlessly Thoth-Amon utilizes his dark magic to accomplish what he wants done. Xaltotun is ambitious but that cost him dearly. Honestly, reading the story, Xaltotun really screwed up in not using the Heart to take life and instead relied on some non-necromantic spells that ultimately were not enough. I don't see Thoth-Amon making the same mistakes - let alone twice.

I'm not trying to convince anyone just stating my opinion as a fan. I totally respect your Howard/Conan knowledge Dale.

[Darkstorm Dale]

Great post Dale - I see what you are saying.

I had a whole big post written but then I lost it while I had to do an errand for the wife. I blame Xaltotun. Bottom line - Conan has it right when he said the priests of Asura are shrewd. Do you feel Hadrathus could beat Thoth-Amon? That is what Hadrathus is implying. I don't think he could defeat Thoth-Amon the Lord of the Black ring. In other words, maybe his opinion is biased. I do like how Howard made a point to mention Thoth-Amon and reiterate Thoth's rank and power in this story while at the same time showing the jealousy and ego other sorcerers have for Thoth-Amon - they all think they are as powerful as Thoth-Amon. But, alas they are not.

Xaltotun is powerful but history is not kind to him. Xaltotun ran from barbarians in Phyton and has been defeated technically the same way twice. He lacks the lust for power Thoth-Amon craves and while Xaltotun hesitates to use his power, we all saw how quickly and effortlessly Thoth-Amon utilizes his dark magic to accomplish what he wants done. Xaltotun is ambitious but that cost him dearly. Honestly, reading the story, Xaltotun really screwed up in not using the Heart to take life and instead relied on some non-necromantic spells that ultimately were not enough. I don't see Thoth-Amon making the same mistakes - let alone twice.

I'm not trying to convince anyone just stating my opinion as a fan. I totally respect your Howard/Conan knowledge Dale.

I understand that this question works entirely on a subjective level, so I didn't take your opinion as anything other than that. We are all fans of Howard afterall...

Personally, I think that Xaltotun, while he may have had some blind-spots, was ultimately more powerful than Thoth-Amon simply because he conjured his powerful magic without using the Heart or any other magical prop, while Thoth-Amon was reduced to the level of a slave fleeing for his life when he was forced to work without his magical prop.

[Strom]

Personally, I think that Xaltotun, while he may have had some blind-spots, was ultimately more powerful than Thoth-Amon simply because he conjured his powerful magic without using the Heart or any other magical prop, while Thoth-Amon was reduced to the level of a slave fleeing for his life when he was forced to work without his magical prop.

Thoth-Amon hid and ran from the Black Ring sorcerers and their dark & powerful necromantic magic. Against such powerful and deadly sorcery he needed his ring to assure victory.

Xaltotun ran from barbarians - Barbarians! - and was twice defeated. Once by a priest of Asura (who?) with a magic item from - drumroll please - Stygia.

Nuff said.

[Taranaich]

I'm with Xaltotun personally, just based on the sorcery we have seen:

Xaltotun has commanded black plagues, commanded two deemingly tireless eldritch steeds and at least two demonic servants, had demonstrated powers of telekinesis (floating crystal) and hypnotism (the belt-snake and smoke snake), and could cause massive natural disasters such as earthquakes and floods. And there is every indication that he could cause even more terrible disasters. The only other wizard in the saga to show even a fraction of such power is Thugra Khotun, another ancient wizard and possible contemporary of Xaltotun(?)

Thoth-Amon has summoned a black fiend using a Black Ring, and sent a serpent-god in a big bowl to his nemesis. We've heard that he is a great sorcerer, but not actually seen much evidence of it, meaning there's a possibility that it's all hyperbole. In contrast, we have actually witnessed Xaltotun's grotesquely destructive powers. Whilst some of it can be attributed to technology (maybe some sort of explosives for the cliffs and the fireball thing he used to incapacitate Conan), most of it is undeniably sorcerous and terrible in nature.

Also, keep in mind that Thutothmes and his priests were killed by four Khitan wizards in combat. It wasn't really a fair fight, but considering that Thutothmes was Thoth-Amon's great rival one should contemplate his chances against the Khitan wizards.

we have knowledge of all the wizards of the East, who are greater than the wizards of the West. And not one of them but would be a straw in the wind before the black might of Xaltotun.

This phrase always confused me, as wouldn't Xaltotun himself be considered a "wizard of the west"? Or is this just in terms of current sorcerous vogue?

Also, regarding the Heart of Ahriman: I don't really think the Heart is so much "Xaltotun's Kryptonite" as it is an artefact of incredible power: any sorceror who uses it will have a considerable boost. Note that Thutothmes and the Khitan Master all planned to use it, and I don't know if Thutothmes was even aware of Xaltotun's resurrection: this points to the likelihood that any wizard can use the Heart against another wizard as well as to resurrect the dead, meaning that saying "Hadrathus could beat Xaltotun" is a moot point. Lou Ferrigno could murder Woody Allen in just about any circumstance, but if Woody had a machine gun it would be a different matter. Yet you wouldn't say Woody could beat Lou on the off-chance that he would have a machine-gun, would you?

[Kane]

Robert E. Howard settles this question.
Hadrathus in describing Xaltotun's power states "we have knowledge of all the wizards of the East, who are greater than the wizards of the West. And not one of them but would be a straw in the wind before the black might of Xaltotun." The Stygians, including Thoth-Amon and Thutothmes, are the wizards of the West.

Another aspect of Xaltotun's abilities and nature comes from Howard. In the Del Rey edition of The Hour of the Dragon, pg.230 comes the following quote; "But behind Xaltotun lie a thousand centuries of black magic and diabolism, an ancient tradition of evil. He is beyond our conception not only because he is a wizard himself, but also because he is the son of a race of wizards." Emphasis added by myself.

Xaltotun is not just powerful because he knows the Arts from thousands of years ago. He's powerful because he comes from a race of people who may not even be completely human.

[Dragon Girl]

But ALL bow before the awesome dark powers of ..............Tim the Enchanter !!!

And even Conan would be forced to use all of his skills to defeat the evil rabbit!

[PainBrush]

Tim: There he is !
King Arthur: Where ?
Tim: There !
King Arthur: What ? Behind the rabbit ?!?
Tim: It is the rabbit !!
King Arthur: You silly sod .
Tim: What ?
King Arthur: You got us all worked up .
Tim: Well, that's no ordinary rabbit .
King Arthur: Ohh .
Tim: That's the most foul, cruel, and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on .
Sir Robin: You tit !! I soiled my armor I was so scared !
Tim: Look , that rabbit's got a vicious streak a mile wide . It's a killer !
Sir Galahad: Get stuffed .
Tim: He'll do you up a treat , mate .
Sir Galahad: Oh yeah ?
Sir Robin: You manky Scots git !
Tim: I'm warning you !
Sir Robin: What's he do ? Nibble your bum ?!?


KILLER RABBIT !!

[Xaltotun]

I used to enjoy being a celebrity, but MAN! the paparazzi have to leave me and Carmen Electra alone! :eyeroll:

[deuce]

Great post Dale - I see what you are saying.

I had a whole big post written but then I lost it while I had to do an errand for the wife. I blame Xaltotun. Bottom line - Conan has it right when he said the priests of Asura are shrewd. Do you feel Hadrathus could beat Thoth-Amon? That is what Hadrathus is implying. I don't think he could defeat Thoth-Amon the Lord of the Black ring. In other words, maybe his opinion is biased. I do like how Howard made a point to mention Thoth-Amon and reiterate Thoth's rank and power in this story while at the same time showing the jealousy and ego other sorcerers have for Thoth-Amon - they all think they are as powerful as Thoth-Amon. But, alas they are not.

Xaltotun is powerful but history is not kind to him. Xaltotun ran from barbarians in Phyton and has been defeated technically the same way twice. He lacks the lust for power Thoth-Amon craves and while Xaltotun hesitates to use his power, we all saw how quickly and effortlessly Thoth-Amon utilizes his dark magic to accomplish what he wants done. Xaltotun is ambitious but that cost him dearly. Honestly, reading the story, Xaltotun really screwed up in not using the Heart to take life and instead relied on some non-necromantic spells that ultimately were not enough. I don't see Thoth-Amon making the same mistakes - let alone twice.

I'm not trying to convince anyone just stating my opinion as a fan. I totally respect your Howard/Conan knowledge Dale.

I understand that this question works entirely on a subjective level, so I didn't take your opinion as anything other than that. We are all fans of Howard afterall...

Personally, I think that Xaltotun, while he may have had some blind-spots, was ultimately more powerful than Thoth-Amon simply because he conjured his powerful magic without using the Heart or any other magical prop, while Thoth-Amon was reduced to the level of a slave fleeing for his life when he was forced to work without his magical prop.

I have to agree with Dale. Thoth-amon was a one-trick pony. He stumbled on "The Bomb", used it for all it was worth and became a fawning slave without it. Xaltotun kicked ass with pure, native talent. His big mistake was going mano a mano with Conan. Thoth, the wily/lucky bastard, always managed to avoid that.

Pelias, Tsotha-Lanti, Thugra Khotan and Yara all deserve honorable mentions, IMO.