56 replies to this topic

[Athelstane]

One of Tolkien's primary influences in creating the rich narrative backdrop against which the book played out was Anglo-Saxon mythology and literature.
He was also a scholar of Old English, particularly Old Mercian, which he infused into the fabric of TLOTR.

Edited by Athelstane, 06 May 2012 - 11:07 AM.

[RJMooreII]

One of Tolkien's primary influences in creating the rich narrative backdrop against which the book played out was Anglo-Saxon mythology and literature.
He was also a scholar of Old English, particularly Old Mercian, which he infused into the fabric of TLOTR.

Yes, as a mythology nerd it's fun to read LotR and the Silmarillion and pick out the parts where he's taken a dark elf here and a ground-demon there and put them together.

[Lunatic]

They have a similar backstory, I always saw the pararell between the dunedain and cimmerians. Obviously the elves make a whole lot of diffrence. I imagine Howard to despise the "lordish" highelves.

Story would start with a young Dundleding warrior from the misty mountains. Fighting some Gondorians attempting to build a fort in their hills. But then a Druid named Saruman try to hire the highlanders as mercenaries in his campaign against the Rohirrim. Lotr-Conan would frown apon the idea and flee, raiding in the north insted. There he would encounter a leprechaun like creatures running from wraiths. He would fight them off at weathertop. Then steal the ring. He might then venture into Gondor and steal with the ring but realizing it is an evil thing. He would take it to Mordor and destroy it.

[Lunatic]

If Tolkien would have written Conan he would have had Thoth-Amon mass a huge stygian army after "Phoenix on the sword" using his ring. Perhaps it is Conans fault somehow that he lost it in the first place. The stygians would use the army of the undead mummies and subdue Shem. Then turn to Aquilionia. The barbarian king, then turn to Mitra and become civilized because of a good sorceror named Gandalf would "help" him. Then the crusade is on...

[Libaax]

Maybe one thing to bear in mind is that Tolkien had seen action on the Western front in WW1 and maybe had more insight into real war and the nature of comradeship and human frailty, whereas REH seemed more of a loner and (I mean this respectfully) fantasist

That says nothing about their work. Tolkien didnt write war novels, he wrote mythlogical High Fantasy. His experience might have helped somehow but it is his writing,world building he is famous for.

REH wrote convincingly,realisticely about history,times he never lived in. You can read your way into learning things to use for your fiction.

Several of the best classic war authors never was involved in WWI or WWII.

REH was a loner? Tell that to his friends that survived him.... Even if he was it says nothing about his writing.

Edited by Libaax, 20 May 2012 - 01:35 PM.

[TheDarkslayer]

Interesting topic. I think Howard's world was based off what he knew from history books and of our world. I don't see him creating a fantasy world like JRR. His world was based off reality with a heavy dose of magic and the bizarre. Of course, maybe JRR is too, but I don't know his work very well.

Still though, I don't understand why CONAN hasn't become an even bigger literature icon. You would think, given the climate, his readership would be growing.

[Russell12]

It would have been a lot quicker, darker and bloodier.

[RJMooreII]

It would have been a lot quicker, darker and bloodier.

Aragorn would have been a lot less maudlin.

[deuce]

It would have been a lot quicker, darker and bloodier.

Aragorn would have been a lot less maudlin.

Turlogh O'Brien was pretty maudlin. For that matter, the two are fairly close physical doubles.

[RJMooreII]

It would have been a lot quicker, darker and bloodier.

Aragorn would have been a lot less maudlin.

Turlogh O'Brien was pretty maudlin. For that matter, the two are fairly close physical doubles.

That is true. And, yeah, Aragorn not only looks like the Atlantean Celts he is an Atlantean Celt in LotR! I know Tolkien read Howard, I wonder if he influenced him consciously or not. Some of the similarities are just shared source material and the climate of gothic and faerie stories they dwelt in, but having read Conan I bet it'd be pretty easy to make the mental connexion that, uh yeah some Atlanteans fled their kingdom as it sunk and ended up in the NW of Middle Earth as a race of woodcrafty supermen.

[deuce]

I know Tolkien read Howard, I wonder if he influenced him consciously or not. Some of the similarities are just shared source material and the climate of gothic and faerie stories they dwelt in, but having read Conan I bet it'd be pretty easy to make the mental connexion that, uh yeah some Atlanteans fled their kingdom as it sunk and ended up in the NW of Middle Earth as a race of woodcrafty supermen.

There's really nothing to show that Tolkien read REH before Spraguey gave him Iron Shadows in the Moon.

As Randal Helms pointed out 30+yrs ago, LotR (and The Hobbit) is structurally similar to "Beren and Luthien" in a myriad of ways.

"B&L" was first plotted around 1918. Robert E. Howard was twelve years old at that point. The band of outlaws/insurgents led by Beren's father is the model for Aragorn and his Dunedain Rangers. Tolkien (by his own admission) suffered from an "Atlantis dream" since childhood (it's possible REH did as well). In addition, Tollers was dark-haired and light-eyed (just like REH).

There were numerous elements (both literary and personal) that led to various parallels between the two authors.

[RJMooreII]

Tolkein's way and choices of how to plot and write are as different from Howard as they are similar, and based on the dates it probably is just shared interests and reading material the two guys had in common.

[Ironhand]

Interesting topic. I think Howard's world was based off what he knew from history books and of our world. I don't see him creating a fantasy world like JRR. His world was based off reality with a heavy dose of magic and the bizarre. Of course, maybe JRR is too, but I don't know his work very well.

Still though, I don't understand why CONAN hasn't become an even bigger literature icon. You would think, given the climate, his readership would be growing.

Every time Conan threatens to become popular, they make a movie. Back to square one.

[svent13]

I just joined this forum, and this was the first topic I read. I have enjoyed reading all the other idea's posted on this discussion. Here is my humble contribution. This is how I see the end of Lord Of The Rings, had REH written it:

"Give me the ring," Sauron hissed.
"Take it from me if you dare." Aragorn bared his teeth in a ferocious grin as he gazed unflinching at the dark lord. "That dog of yours, Saruman, tried to take it and he lost his head for his troubles." Sauron gestured and the nine riders stepped forward as one and raised their hands toward the ranger. He felt a wave of cold washing over him as their joined wills sought to overpower his own. Aragorn grunted with sudden exertion as he fought to keep his hand from opening. Slowly his tightly clenched fist relaxed and a sudden gleam from Sauron's ring shone forth as it was revealed. The dark lord smiled as he looked down on his opponent.
"You're little more than a wild beast. Your untrained mind cannot hope to prevail against the skill and power I possess." Sauron looked toward the witch-king. "Bring me the ring, and then do with the upstart as you will. Make him your slave if you like, though I fear he will be good for little more than licking boots."
Aragorn's powerful muscles strained as he fought the will of the riders, but his hand continued to open. The leader of the nine walked toward him, his hand reaching out to pluck the prize from Aragorn's grip. The ranger grimaced and tried to pull his arm back, to little avail. Anger suddenly flowed through him. A rush of images went through his mind; Frodo and the other children mercilessly hewed by the servants of Sauron, Gimli and Legolas falling in battle, Galadriel's voice silenced forever at the hands of the witch king, and...Arwyn. Aragorn snarled as he remembered the last sight of the only woman he loved being dragged off to torture and death by soldiers of Mordor. A red haze settled over his thoughts and he was filled with renewed determination. Sweat broke out from his brow and his muscles stood out in bold relief as he fought with increased vigor against the will of the riders. The witch king hissed as Aragorn's fist closed once more and the mighty ranger pulled his arm back to his side. The nine leaned forward as they sought to control Aragorn.
A mighty roar issued from the ranger and he strode forward and kicked the witch king squarely in the chest. The leader of the nine fell backward with a crash as he was caught unprepared for the sudden attack. Even as the witch king fell, Aragorn's sword was up and swinging. Two of the riders fell as their heads were removed from their bodies. The others turned as the ranger moved forward. Their concentration broke and they struggled to reestablish control over Aragorn, but they were unsuccessful. Aragorn's powerfully muscled body crashed into them, sending some of them to the floor and knocking the others back. His blade, Anduril, flashed like lightning, swiftly hewing the riders as they tried unsuccessfully to avoid his attacks. Within moments, all of the riders, save the witch king, had fallen, the last vestiges of life draining from their bodies as they lay, torn and bloody at Aragorn's feet.
The witch king scrambled away vainly as Aragorn strode towards him, his blade raising for a final blow. "Impossible," the dark rider said. "The prophecies say no man can slay me."
"To hell with prophecy," Aragorn responded, and he brought Anduril crashing down upon the witch king. The blade cleaved through metal and bone as it was driven deep into the rider's head. Blood and brains spattered onto the floor as Aragorn wrenched his sword free. The witch king collapsed to the floor and moved no more. The ranger stepped over the lifeless body and faced Sauron. The dark lord stared at his foe in disbelief.
"Do you recognize this blade?" Aragorn stared fiercely at the lord of Mordor. "This is the sword that my ancestor used to chop off your hand and take your precious ring. I have reforged it. Now I'll use it to take your head, and then I'll throw your head and your ring into the fires of Mount Doom and you can have your ring in hell." He raised his sword and swung a mighty blow at Sauron. The dark lord raised his hand and Aragorn's arm froze in mid-swing. He pulled his arm back with an effort and swung again. The dark lord stepped back as he used his power to stay the ranger's blow, but with less success. Aragorn felt his rage rising to a crescendo as he moved forward after Sauron, chopping at the dark lord again and again with his blade. Each stroke made it successively closer to Sauron and for the first time, the dark lord felt fear. His foe was a primal force of nature, fierce and untamed. Sauron's power crumbled before the power of Aragorn's barbaric rage, and he was driven back to collapse to the floor. The dark lord raised his arm in a last futile effort to stay his enemy. A second later his arm fell to the floor, sheared off by Anduril.
Aragorn smiled grimly as he stood over Sauron. The dark lord stared at him in fear as the ranger raised his sword and brought it crashing down, severing Sauron's head and sending it flying. It landed on the ground with a thud. Aragorn walked over and picked the head up. He stared into Sauron's eyes as the last light of life disappeared. Aragorn forced Sauron's mouth open and shoved the ring in and then closed it again. "I told you, you can have your ring in hell," the ranger said. He sheathed his sword and turned and started once more on the trail to the summit of Mount Doom, holding Sauron's head as he made his way.

[deuce]

I just joined this forum, and this was the first topic I read. I have enjoyed reading all the other idea's posted on this discussion. Here is my humble contribution. This is how I see the end of Lord Of The Rings, had REH written it:

"Give me the ring," Sauron hissed.
"Take it from me if you dare." Aragorn bared his teeth in a ferocious grin as he gazed unflinching at the dark lord. "That dog of yours, Saruman, tried to take it and he lost his head for his troubles." Sauron gestured and the nine riders stepped forward as one and raised their hands toward the ranger. He felt a wave of cold washing over him as their joined wills sought to overpower his own. Aragorn grunted with sudden exertion as he fought to keep his hand from opening. Slowly his tightly clenched fist relaxed and a sudden gleam from Sauron's ring shone forth as it was revealed. The dark lord smiled as he looked down on his opponent.
"You're little more than a wild beast. Your untrained mind cannot hope to prevail against the skill and power I possess." Sauron looked toward the witch-king. "Bring me the ring, and then do with the upstart as you will. Make him your slave if you like, though I fear he will be good for little more than licking boots."
Aragorn's powerful muscles strained as he fought the will of the riders, but his hand continued to open. The leader of the nine walked toward him, his hand reaching out to pluck the prize from Aragorn's grip. The ranger grimaced and tried to pull his arm back, to little avail. Anger suddenly flowed through him. A rush of images went through his mind; Frodo and the other children mercilessly hewed by the servants of Sauron, Gimli and Legolas falling in battle, Galadriel's voice silenced forever at the hands of the witch king, and...Arwyn. Aragorn snarled as he remembered the last sight of the only woman he loved being dragged off to torture and death by soldiers of Mordor. A red haze settled over his thoughts and he was filled with renewed determination. Sweat broke out from his brow and his muscles stood out in bold relief as he fought with increased vigor against the will of the riders. The witch king hissed as Aragorn's fist closed once more and the mighty ranger pulled his arm back to his side. The nine leaned forward as they sought to control Aragorn.
A mighty roar issued from the ranger and he strode forward and kicked the witch king squarely in the chest. The leader of the nine fell backward with a crash as he was caught unprepared for the sudden attack. Even as the witch king fell, Aragorn's sword was up and swinging. Two of the riders fell as their heads were removed from their bodies. The others turned as the ranger moved forward. Their concentration broke and they struggled to reestablish control over Aragorn, but they were unsuccessful. Aragorn's powerfully muscled body crashed into them, sending some of them to the floor and knocking the others back. His blade, Anduril, flashed like lightning, swiftly hewing the riders as they tried unsuccessfully to avoid his attacks. Within moments, all of the riders, save the witch king, had fallen, the last vestiges of life draining from their bodies as they lay, torn and bloody at Aragorn's feet.
The witch king scrambled away vainly as Aragorn strode towards him, his blade raising for a final blow. "Impossible," the dark rider said. "The prophecies say no man can slay me."
"To hell with prophecy," Aragorn responded, and he brought Anduril crashing down upon the witch king. The blade cleaved through metal and bone as it was driven deep into the rider's head. Blood and brains spattered onto the floor as Aragorn wrenched his sword free. The witch king collapsed to the floor and moved no more. The ranger stepped over the lifeless body and faced Sauron. The dark lord stared at his foe in disbelief.
"Do you recognize this blade?" Aragorn stared fiercely at the lord of Mordor. "This is the sword that my ancestor used to chop off your hand and take your precious ring. I have reforged it. Now I'll use it to take your head, and then I'll throw your head and your ring into the fires of Mount Doom and you can have your ring in hell." He raised his sword and swung a mighty blow at Sauron. The dark lord raised his hand and Aragorn's arm froze in mid-swing. He pulled his arm back with an effort and swung again. The dark lord stepped back as he used his power to stay the ranger's blow, but with less success. Aragorn felt his rage rising to a crescendo as he moved forward after Sauron, chopping at the dark lord again and again with his blade. Each stroke made it successively closer to Sauron and for the first time, the dark lord felt fear. His foe was a primal force of nature, fierce and untamed. Sauron's power crumbled before the power of Aragorn's barbaric rage, and he was driven back to collapse to the floor. The dark lord raised his arm in a last futile effort to stay his enemy. A second later his arm fell to the floor, sheared off by Anduril.
Aragorn smiled grimly as he stood over Sauron. The dark lord stared at him in fear as the ranger raised his sword and brought it crashing down, severing Sauron's head and sending it flying. It landed on the ground with a thud. Aragorn walked over and picked the head up. He stared into Sauron's eyes as the last light of life disappeared. Aragorn forced Sauron's mouth open and shoved the ring in and then closed it again. "I told you, you can have your ring in hell," the ranger said. He sheathed his sword and turned and started once more on the trail to the summit of Mount Doom, holding Sauron's head as he made his way.

Hey Svent! Welcome to the forum. You've got some good writing chops there. Plenty of gritty blood n' thunder. However, I'd break things into smaller paragraphs.

"Howardian"-type dialogue can be found in JRRT's "The Wanderings of Hurin" (there are other examples elsewhere). You can read some of that online here:

http://www.thecimmerian.com/tol-acharn-part-two-of-the-wanderings-of-hurin/

Don't be a stranger.

[svent13]

deuce,

thanks. I'm glad I came across this website. I've enjoyed REH's work since I was a kid. Though I am not a proponent of the oft-reviled L. Sprague de Camp, it was the 12 volume set of Conan stories he edited and had published that introduced me to Howard's Conan. I've long since lost those novels. Nowadays, I have the editions The Coming Of Conan, The Conquering Sword of Conan, and The Bloody Crown Of Conan.

Actually, when I started reading Howard again as an adult, it wasn't the Conan stories I started with but rather REH's boxing stories. I picked up two volumes, Waterfront Fists and one titled simply Boxing Stories, respectively. Great stuff. Steve Costigan quickly became one of my favorite characters.

[deuce]

deuce,


Actually, when I started reading Howard again as an adult, it wasn't the Conan stories I started with but rather REH's boxing stories. I picked up two volumes, Waterfront Fists and one titled simply Boxing Stories, respectively. Great stuff. Steve Costigan quickly became one of my favorite characters.

Just shows you're a TRUE "Howardhead". Welcome to the pack!