95 replies to this topic

[Lionmane]

DeCamp may have been a good writer, but as a writer of Conan's life in the Hyborian Age, he really didn't get it. Admittedly, I've never read any of his non-mess-up-REH-work, but a friend of mine really likes his books. From what I gather, he was good at writing humorous fantasy. Fine. That hardly qualifies him to work in the Hyborian Age, or think that he can improve upon the writer who created it. And yes, he did help keep Conan in print, but does this mean he should be mentioned every time Conan's name is brought up, like many of his fans think? As much as DeCamp's fans (or possibly DeCamp himself) may wish it, he did not create Conan. I think that Frank Frazetta's artwork had as much to do with getting Conan books sold as DeCamp's efforts....and though he was the one who brought Conan back, I think that if he hadn't, someone else would have eventually.
Is DeCamp some kind of monster? No. Is he a terrible writer? Most likely no. Is he a good editor , "collaborator", or pastiche writer of Conan's adventures? No.

[El Borak's Li'l Brother]

Yes, L. Sprague DeCamp was a good writer/co-writer of original material. I have and have read a fair piece of his original works and they are well worth a read. As for his treatment of Conan, as with August Derleth and Lovecraft, it is obvious he thought he knew best what made Conan great, missing the point all together. And, as Derleth felt it necessary to add the "good vs. evil" element to Lovecraft, I think DeCamp fell into, to a point, the "He-Man" syndrome before it even existed.What I am speaking of is the protagonist facing the same opponent over and over and over... That ruins series fiction! Howard created Thoth Amon in Conan's first story, and quite a villainous character he is, as well as popular. So while Howard led his creation through varying opponents, DeCamp kept dropping Thoth Amon in, like his rewrite of The Black Stranger, 'cause he thought Howard's original opponent wasn't good enough. Would the Conan series have eventually turned into a Conan vs. Thoth Amon over and over and over...? The thought frightens...

[Lionmane]

Very good point, L'il Bro. The Derleth example is a good one...someone coming in after the fact and projecting his ideas onto an existing mythos and and completely missing the point, therefore diluting and generally screwing up things.

[cimerians]

Just a question, are the pure Howard stories in these books modified at all? I don't mind spelling errors corrected and some very minor editing but were they modified in any other way?

[PaulMc]

Just a question, are the pure Howard stories in these books modified at all? I don't mind spelling errors corrected and some very minor editing but were they modified in any other way?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, even the stories credited to Howard were altered. I don't know specifics--except for "The Treasure of Tranicos" which I recently compared to "The Black Stranger". deCamp added a few extra pages at the end and changed the end of the story. Not how the action ended, but where Conan was heading and with whom at the end.

[cimerians]

In that case will DeCamps name appear in the credits for the story like this:

"The Treasure of Tranicos" -- Howard\Decamp

?

[PaulMc]

In that case will DeCamps name appear in the credits for the story like this:

"The Treasure of Tranicos"    --  Howard\Decamp

?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No. I don't think so. If I recall correctly, DeCamp only credited where he worked on undeveloped tales and fragments.

e.g.;
http://www.pulpandda...an/Usurper.html

Notice that "Treasure of Tranicos" is credited to Howard, not Howard & DeCamp, though there were changes beyond typo-fixing made by DeCamp.

[cimerians]

Thats sucks.

I can usually tell the difference but I haven't read those books in ages and I was curious.

[PainBrush]

In that case will DeCamps name appear in the credits for the story like this:

"The Treasure of Tranicos"    --  Howard\Decamp

?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes ,that's exactly how all the stories are credited in the ace books , also Howard/DeCamp/Carter. Howard wrote 'Black Stranger' , DeCamp changed it & named it "Treasure of Tranicos" if you see "Treasure of Tranicos" anywhere it will be credited to Howard/DeCamp , regardless if the nincompoop doing the reviewing on that link above listed it that way or not . I have the Ace paperbacks here in front of me as well as a few diff. printings of Tranicos in diff. forms . He did a 'little' bit more than add a few pages & change the ending also .

[PaulMc]

In that case will DeCamps name appear in the credits for the story like this:

"The Treasure of Tranicos"    --  Howard\Decamp

?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes ,that's exactly how all the stories are credited in the ace books , also Howard/DeCamp/Carter. Howard wrote 'Black Stranger' , DeCamp changed it & named it "Treasure of Tranicos" if you see "Treasure of Tranicos" anywhere it will be credited to Howard/DeCamp , regardless if the nincompoop doing the reviewing on that link above listed it that way or not . I have the Ace paperbacks here in front of me as well as a few diff. printings of Tranicos in diff. forms . He did a 'little' bit more than add a few pages & change the ending also .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My mistake, I didn't have my books with me when I answered (I was at work.)

Here is a more accurate listing of the ACE/Lancer editions, with writers' credits.

http://www.dodgenet....m/Hysources.htm

Yes, there were more changes, I was just remembering off-the-cuff. I think LSdC also made a connection between the demon and Thoth Amon that wasn't in 'The Black Stranger'.

[cimerians]

In that case will DeCamps name appear in the credits for the story like this:

"The Treasure of Tranicos"? ?  --?  Howard\Decamp

?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes ,that's exactly how all the stories are credited in the ace books , also Howard/DeCamp/Carter. Howard wrote 'Black Stranger' , DeCamp changed it & named it "Treasure of Tranicos" if you see "Treasure of Tranicos" anywhere it will be credited to Howard/DeCamp , regardless if the nincompoop doing the reviewing on that link above listed it that way or not . I have the Ace paperbacks here in front of me as well as a few diff. printings of Tranicos in diff. forms . He did a 'little' bit more than add a few pages & change the ending also .

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My mistake, I didn't have my books with me when I answered (I was at work.)

Here is a more accurate listing of the ACE/Lancer editions, with writers' credits.

http://www.dodgenet....m/Hysources.htm

Yes, there were more changes, I was just remembering off-the-cuff. I think LSdC also made a connection between the demon and Thoth Amon that wasn't in 'The Black Stranger'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Damn that really ruins everything. I know LSdC was probably trying to help but I'm not so sure. I know a lot of people blast him and now I think I might know why. Changing the ending or anything like that is pretty major.

Thanks for the links...

[PaulMc]

Damn that really ruins everything. I know LSdC was probably trying to help but I'm not so sure. I know a lot of people blast him and now I think I might know why. Changing the ending or anything like that is pretty major.

"ruins" is kind of strong, but there are people who agree. I guess I'm just mellow in my old age. I can take both Conans. It's true LSdC reworked this one a bit, but remember, it was never even published by Howard (as a Conan story.) So, no one was any the wiser.

I'm not sure how extensively he worked tales that don't bear his name. Maybe there weren't any great changes. (the other thing LSdC did alot of was adapting REH's historical, non-Conan tales into Conan stories.)

As a writer, I guess I'd be miffed if someone came along and changed my tales.

On the other hand, now that the original stories are available, I look at LSdC's work like movies--in the spirit of the originals, but with alterations to make it work in their universe.

The big issue is that for a while the originals weren't available and LSdC, et al, were the only versions. I think the original Howard versions should always have been made available, for the record.

[VincentDarlage]

Just a question, are the pure Howard stories in these books modified at all? I don't mind spelling errors corrected and some very minor editing but were they modified in any other way?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This link should help: The Edited Conan Stories

It goes into considerable detail.

[mugginsmajik]

Hi all, I used to be into the Conan character many years ago and first read some of the stories in L. Sprague de Camp's paperbacks. However, lately I have rediscovered the character and started to take a big interest in the stories and Robert E. Howard's work in general. I was therefore disgusted to find that L. Sprague de Camp had decided to play God and alter Robert E. Howard's fantastic literature in his releases (something that I feel is an insult to both the reader and the writer). Finishing unfinished stories is one thing, but changing words, plus altering and editing what is already perfect is wrong. Anyway, what I want to know is there a list somewhere or even a website, where I can read about all the changes L. Sprague de Camp made, including the other stories by Howard that he turned into Conan stories?

[mugginsmajik]

Hi all, I used to be into the Conan character many years ago and first read some of the stories in L. Sprague de Camp's paperbacks. However, lately I have rediscovered the character and started to take a big interest in the stories and Robert E. Howard's work in general. I was therefore disgusted to find that L. Sprague de Camp had decided to play God and alter Robert E. Howard's fantastic literature in his releases (something that I feel is an insult to both the reader and the writer). Finishing unfinished stories is one thing, but changing words, plus altering and editing what is already perfect is wrong. Anyway, what I want to know is there a list somewhere or even a website, where I can read about all the changes L. Sprague de Camp made, including the other stories by Howard that he turned into Conan stories?

Here's an answer to my own question:

http://www.barbarian...com/edited.html

That page has details about some of the the edits made, is there any other sites? Thanks.

[godzilladude]

Hi all, I used to be into the Conan character many years ago and first read some of the stories in L. Sprague de Camp's paperbacks. However, lately I have rediscovered the character and started to take a big interest in the stories and Robert E. Howard's work in general. I was therefore disgusted to find that L. Sprague de Camp had decided to play God and alter Robert E. Howard's fantastic literature in his releases (something that I feel is an insult to both the reader and the writer). Finishing unfinished stories is one thing, but changing words, plus altering and editing what is already perfect is wrong. Anyway, what I want to know is there a list somewhere or even a website, where I can read about all the changes L. Sprague de Camp made, including the other stories by Howard that he turned into Conan stories?

Here's an answer to my own question:

http://www.barbarian...com/edited.html

That page has details about some of the the edits made, is there any other sites? Thanks.

I don't think so. There was some REHupan who did some chewing on the subject a decade ago, but I don't know if that research can be found. Personally, as someone who actually took LSDC text and edited back to match pulp appearance, I found that in the works that were previously published, he did virtually nothing. But on stuff that was unpublished, he felt it was OK to make some changes.

Every editor makes changes. The only question is, does it matter? Unless you are reading a facsimile of an original typescript, you've got edited text. That's the way the real world works. REH wasn't perfect and misspelled words on occasion. Life. I'd love to see a comparison between Farnsworth Wright (Weird Tales editor), LSDC, Grant, Patrice and me, doing an REH Conan story that first appeared in the the 1930s. That to me would be interesting. Without that kind of analysis, its all just mindless mudslinging.

[Sermon Bath]

De Camp was a great writer in my opinion....his story "The Eye of Tandyla" is one of the best fantasy tales I've ever read......I also loved "Black Tears" featuring conan.........of course like all writers he had his good and bad.........Those conan stories he edited, wrote, or changed to conan tales were huge popularity wise......so he must have done something right. I think we should give him some respect....a better writer than Wagner in my humble opinion.......Kane had NO personality.....Howard and De Camp made their characters very likable..........Wagner didn't have that gift

[mugginsmajik]

Godzilladude, while I agree with most of your post, you can't compare misspellings with someone who has come along and changed the feel of the story, which is the case with some of his edits. Although not all the stories had already been released some of them could still be regarded as finished polished adventures, so I can?t understand why he bothered with the rewrites (obviously political correctness played a part, but it wasn't always the case). Of course the stories still shine through and the Lancer paperbacks did very well at the time and helped keep Conan popular (though their cover artwork also helped), but I just feel that if something is edited too heavily, it ruins the effect of the original art. To me it's like taking a marker pen to the Mona Lisa.

Edited by mugginsmajik, 23 July 2007 - 04:13 AM.

[Otto Harkaman]

Well we all have opinions.

You can find De Camp in the paperbacks usually in the introduction give a rough idea where the original story came from. For example "Flame Knife" was originally an unfinished El Borak story that De Camp reworked.

I like De Camp, I use to think also that it was blasphemy that he had reworked some of the stories. But as pointed out, a lot of the stories were very incomplete rough drafts that were nowhere near finished anyways.

Many writers today work in collaboration, if De Camp and Howard and been alive at the same time and done some collaborative work like Weis and Hickman I think we would have got some incredible fiction.

[godzilladude]

Well, two points.

One, I did not say that whatever LSDC did to the previously unpublished stories was OK by me. I DID point out that no one seems up to actually checking out the details, and seeing if it really ruins the stories. One of the more universal complaints I used to hear was that in Beyond the Black River, he added a clause to a sentence in which Conan is reciting all the things he's done, and LSDC added "Maybe be a king one day". That wasn't in the original, so boy was that evil. Yet, in that same story, REH himself has a line a lot like that a couple pages later, referencing Conan going to become a king. So I'm having a hard time seeing the issue here. And this was one of the most oft-cited examples. I still prefer the REH original, just on principles, but I haven't been especially shown how stories were RUINED by LSDC. But I sincerely doubt he helped much either.

Two, the El Borak and Crusade stories LSDC rewrote were already complete, finished, and quite good in their genre. Hence, all he had to do was change the names of peoples and places, try to work in some kind of fantasy element, and he was good to go. Those original stories just had not been sold by the 1950s, due to the market. So it wasn't a case of LSDC finishing up the work. Lord, if he would have found the Big REH Stash of typescripts before Glenn, there would have been at least DOZENS more of these stories from other genres turned into Conan stories. Now the unfinished Conan stories, like Hand of Nergal and Hall of the Dead, yep, he finished those up. Everyone has different tastes in authors, I personally just think LSDC didn't get it at all, and couldn't write heroic fantasy to save his life. To him it was stupid, moronic, and therefore just fill out the formula and call it a day. No poetic skills, no deep knowledge of history, no powerful drivers or views to push, no rage. LSDC was a house painter happily whistling away while he worked, REH was an artist working canvas and oils with a deep scowl and harsh strokes. They both used brushes, and they both made sellable products, but very different folks, and one couldn't imitate the other.

Edited by godzilladude, 23 July 2007 - 02:45 PM.