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Thurian Age: History and Geography (General Questions)

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#161 timeless

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 07:38 PM

I'd like to have some of what that woman smoked.
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream. - Edgar Allen Poe

It's the olden lure, it's the golden lure, it's the lure of the timeless things. - Robert Service

For the myth is the foundation of life; it is the timeless schema, the pious formula into which life flows when it reproduces its traits out of the unconscious. - Thomas Mann

Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over from the basement of time. On some of the rocks are timeless raindrops. - Norman Maclean

#162 Fernando

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Posted 26 August 2008 - 10:45 PM

In the Untitled Fragment a.k.a. Wizard and Warrior, REH mentioned the blue-eyed Celts has possible co-ancestors of Brule - who wasn't 100% Pict. Did these Thurian Age's Celts had something to do with the Atlanteans and/or with historicals Celts - Gauls/Britons/Gaelics?


Hey Fernando! I think it's certainly possible. The implication I got from that fragment was that those "Thurian Age Celts" were probably closer to the Pictish Isles (ie, the later Rocky Mountains/West Coast) than they were to Atlantis or Valusia. The fact that "Celtic" genes could somehow enter Brule's bloodline (yet NEVER be mentioned about any other character) argues for this, IMO. There is also the REH "Conrad and Kinrowan" yarn, The Dwellers Beneath the Tombs. In it, there is an extremely ancient, "white", "pre-Indian" race. The story is set somewhere on the New England coast. There are also the mysterious "Ligureans" of the "WBtB" fragment to consider. Are the two connected?

I also wonder if the name "Kelt", from the yarn Brachan would me merely coincidence, or if it could have some connection between Thurian Age's Celts and post-cataclysmic Kelts. :unsure:


It's possible. Perhaps a transmission from the "TA Celts" to the Ligureans and on to Cimmerians/Nordheimr/Aryans and then to Brachan's "Kelts".
Hope that helps. :)


Thank you very much, Deuce! :D After all this explanation, my conclusion is: the name "Celts" was transmissed from "TA Celts" by minglings between those Celts with some Picts, originating Ligureans - who kept, among some of them, the expression "Celt/Kelt"; and millenia later, the pre-Aryan Cimmerians/Nordheimrs raiders who had contact with the Ligureans took this name for themselves. You're the man! :D

#163 deuce

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:33 AM

Lemme just say that I think Tim Kirk is probably the best map artist REH has had. His maps are clear, beautifully rendered and generally accurate. The have an "archaic" look that I find very evocative. Tim didn't have as much to work with on his Thurian Age map as say, his Hyborian or SK "Africa" maps. It would have taken a LOT more research (believe me) to have done the "Kull" map right. As we speak, I believe that Dale is working on a Thurian map. I think it's probable that I won't agree with THAT map either. I'll explicate those reasons to him when he posts his finished work. So, without diggin' out my notes, I'll touch on the major points against TK's map: west to east, north to south...


Kaa-u (Pictish Isles): also called the Sunset Isles. Tim chose to slap "Kaa-u" on the Pictish Isles. I can understand his reasoning, but for various reasons I disagree. The Isles are WAY too close to the Thurian mainland. The general opinion (and mine) is that the Pictish Isles are the tops of what will be the Rocky Mts. in the Hyborian Age (and ours). Moving east to Atlantis, we find, instead of a "small continent", a large island approx. the size of Great Britain or Madagascar. Atlantis is stated to be a navigational obstacle to the Picts and Lemurians. Therefore, I see Atlantis extending from the Azores, following the Mid-Atlantic Ridge almost to where Iceland would later rise. I envision Atlantis as being widest in the south, to accomodate the "savannah" and "jungle" of the Am-Ra tales (it also matches up with Plato). It then narrows in the middle and again widens out in the north. Sorta "spoon-shaped", you could say. The coordinates would be 35 N., 22-34 W. extending up to 67N., 15-25W.

Farsun: a major key and anchor for the whole map. It would appear that the Picts were settled in the mountains of the northern Farsunian/Valusian frontier. According to "The Hyborian Age", that's where we find them at the start of the HA. According to "The Lost Race", that's where we find the Picts (the Basques) from Neolithic times to the present day. Basically, Farsun=Zingara=Iberian Peninsula. I have Farsun sticking out to 12 degrees W. to accommodate the extra land up north while still being "westernmost".
Commoria and Thule: Commoria isn't even mentioned in the Kull tales. Not sure about Thule. Since "Thule" was originally applied to what geographers thought was the northernmost land, I'm placing it in the vicinity of the most northerly British Isles, about 60N., 8W. Commoria I see tucked into the southeast flank of Thule with no common border (in the time of Kull) touching on Valusia. Ever noticed the similarity between "Commoria" and "Cimmeria"? I think this is the area conquered by the northern Atlanteans.

Valusia: I place its western (coastal) boundary at about 6 degrees W., tucked in between the Farsunian and Thulean peninsulas, extending from 43-54 degrees N. Valusia, City of Wonders, is positioned about where the Italian city of Bergamo is now situated. The Zalgara Mts. run north-south roughly along the 15 degrees E. meridian.
Kamelia and Verulia: I envision Kamelia occupying (roughly) a region including Holland, s. Denmark and n. Germany. I see Verulia situated s-e of Kamelia in the region roughly corresponding with Germany south of Berlin,plus Switzerland and w. Austria. This is because Dalgar, in "Swords of the Purple Kingdom", thought he could reach the Verulian border from the Valusian capitol IN ONE NIGHT!
Zarfhaana: I see this ancient kingdom encompassing Poland (s. of Warsaw), Slovakia, Hungary and Serbia (very roughly). There's a gulf n. of Warsaw "swarming with pirates and sea-rovers". The Camoonian Desert is now covered by the nations of Croatia and Bosnia. The Zhemri Mts.,"in the southeast", which "I" take to mean "the southeast of the Seven Empires", are basically the Balkans today. The "Zarfhaana'an Mts.", where lies Talunia, run roughly north-south on the 25 degrees E. meridian.
Grondar: lies betwixt the 25 E. and 35 E. meridians. It's n. border is where the Stagus empties into the "Zarfhaana'an Gulf". It's s. border lies somewhere about the 42-43 N. parallel.
Stagus R. and the World's End: I believe REH intended the Stagus to become the Styx after the Cataclysm. Instead of running due north, the Cataclysm turned the course of the Stagus due east at the 35 N. parallel. I've had the Stagus "meander" 5 degrees east to give Grondar a little more room. The World's End? It stretches east for a LOOONNG ways.
Thurania: covers an area stretching roughly from Sardinia to Istanbul, south to Crete and west to Tunis. It shares a western border with Farsun, its ancient enemy. VERULIA is never described as being south of Valusia.
"lesser principalities": stretch in an arc 50-200 miles deep, starting from Grondar's s-e border all the way to Farsun.
The Lost Lands: Why are they called "the LOST Lands"? I think there's a very interesting answer for that, but I shan't go into it now. I think they occupy a major portion of what we now call the Middle East.


That's enough for now. I'll just note that Tim didn't make the Thurian (Eurasian/African) continent anywhere near big enough, since we know that the eastern seaboard was pretty close to what it is today. Of course, if had to cram all that on two paperback-sized pages, I probably woulda compressed some things myself. :)


Thought I'd bump this thread. Of course, my views have changed slightly since 2006. :)

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#164 Vilalt

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 12:04 AM

The "Lemurian Isles" are clearly west of the Thurian continent, which is proto-Eurasia, but they don't seem to be described as really close to America/the "nameless continent" (in that letter to Miller, Howard talks about American islands that seem to be different).

Maybe they're a (now sunken) extension to the west of Macaronesia (Canaries/Cape Verde/Azores)?

#165 Vilalt

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 01:38 AM

Also, the mentions of a minimum 500 years between Kull and the Cataclysm. Why not much more, 2500-5000 or so? We have time to work with - Kull is 100,000 BC, and the Hyborian Age seems to end near the beginning of history (the "sons of Aryas" and the first Egyptians). So that gives us 90,000-95,000 between Kull's day and the end of the Hyborian age ... wow.

Atlantis is a primitive land in Kull's era, and Commoria/Commoriom needs time to rise and become the nation of both REH and CAS's works (name-dropped by HPL, too). [Commoriom is probably the real name, and Commoria an Aquilonian form used by some historian who the Nemedian Chronicler drew on - Aquilonian names are very Latin-style, and an -om to -a ending change is very much in the Roman style when adopting foreign names.]

#166 deuce

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Posted 18 November 2008 - 04:29 AM

The "Lemurian Isles" are clearly west of the Thurian continent, which is proto-Eurasia, but they don't seem to be described as really close to America/the "nameless continent" (in that letter to Miller, Howard talks about American islands that seem to be different).

Maybe they're a (now sunken) extension to the west of Macaronesia (Canaries/Cape Verde/Azores)?


Good question, Vilalt. I've started a new thread on Lemuria and Mu in the Thurian Age here:
http://www.conan.com...?showtopic=6500

I cover your question thoroughly on that thread. The two great landmasses of the Thurian Age "Pacific" ocean deserve their own topic, IMO. :)

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#167 GrimFinger

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 08:33 AM

Commoria is never mentioned once in all of the Kull yarns. It appears to have been created/thought of by REH when he wrote the Hyborian Age essay/guideline (probably influenced by Clark Ashton Smith's Commorium).


Hello, one and all.

I hope that I am not intruding too very much into your ongoing dialogue and conversation here, but I have some questions of my own, that I would like to ask, if that is all right.

I will preface my questions by stating upfront that I am severely in over my head on these topics, but I hope that you don't mind my questions too very much, nonetheless.

Question # 1: With regard to Commoria and Commorium, does anyone happen to know the respective dates, offhand, when Robert E. Howard first mentioned Commoria and Clark Ashton Smith first mentioned Commoriom in their respective writings?

Question # 2: In his essay of sorts, "The Hyborian Age," Robert E. Howard wrote, "Known history begins with the waning of the Pre-Cataclysmic civilization, dominated by the kingdoms of Kamelia, Valusia, Verulia, Grondar, Thule and Commoria. These peoples spoke a similar language, arguing a common origin." Is there any consensus that there was, indeed, a common origin, and if so, what was it? More so than just stating the "Thurian race," if that, indeed, be your belief, I am more interested in hearing you expound upon your belief about this common origin at length.

Question # 3: This question deals more with the Hyborian Age than the Pre-Cataclysmic or Thurian Age, if you will, but I honestly do not know which of those two ages (Hyborian Age or Thurian Age) Robert E. Howard actually conceived of first. Anyway, with regard to the origin of Cimmeria, is it that Cimmerians are called Cimmerians, because they hail from a place called Cimmeria, or is Cimmeria called Cimmeria because it is populated by people called Cimmerians? I know that people often try to figure out which real world historical peoples seem to be the inspiration for various Hyborian Age peoples. But, I wonder if Cimmeria was named as it was, after Robert E. Howard perhaps was struck with the idea of the Cataclysm, after reading about the Cimmerian Orogeny, perhaps?

The Cimmerian Orogeny, is an orogeny that created mountain ranges that now lie in Central Asia. The orogeny is believed to have begun 200 - 150 million years ago (much of the Jurassic Period), when the Cimmerian plate collided with the southern coast of Kazakhstania, North and South China, enclosing the ancient Paleo-Tethys Ocean between them. The plate consisted of what are now known as Turkey, Iran, Tibet and western Southeast Asia. Much of the plate's northern boundary formed mountain ranges that were as high as the present-day Himalayas. The orogeny continued well into the Cretaceous and Early Cenozoic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerian_orogeny


Question # 4: Of late, my focus has been upon the kingdom of Thule in the Thurian Age. What could you knowledgable people tell me about Thule?

Question # 5: I was wondering what each of you thought about the origin of the kingdom Grondar, and whether Gondwana might have been the inspiration for the name, with Robert E. Howard changing it for flavor's sake?


Thank you in advance for your time and your patience for my intrusion and questions.

- Charles -

Edited by GrimFinger, 19 November 2008 - 08:48 AM.


#168 Vilalt

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 04:28 PM

Question # 1: With regard to Commoria and Commorium, does anyone happen to know the respective dates, offhand, when Robert E. Howard first mentioned Commoria and Clark Ashton Smith first mentioned Commoriom in their respective writings?


Clark Ashton Smith apparently first mentioned it in "The Testament of Satampra Zeiros", the first-written story of the Hyperborean cycle - published November 1931. I'm not sure when Howard first mentioned it, but "The Hyborian Age" mentions it; its time of writing is uncertain, since it was published only after his death. H. P. Lovecraft name-drops "Commoriom and Uzuldaroum" in "At the Mountains of Madness", published in 1936, but written in Feb/March 1931 - earlier than the publication of "Satampra Zeiros", so Lovecraft must have read an early draft of it or discussed it with CAS.

Question # 3: This question deals more with the Hyborian Age than the Pre-Cataclysmic or Thurian Age, if you will, but I honestly do not know which of those two ages (Hyborian Age or Thurian Age) Robert E. Howard actually conceived of first. Anyway, with regard to the origin of Cimmeria, is it that Cimmerians are called Cimmerians, because they hail from a place called Cimmeria, or is Cimmeria called Cimmeria because it is populated by people called Cimmerians? I know that people often try to figure out which real world historical peoples seem to be the inspiration for various Hyborian Age peoples. But, I wonder if Cimmeria was named as it was, after Robert E. Howard perhaps was struck with the idea of the Cataclysm, after reading about the Cimmerian Orogeny, perhaps?

The Cimmerian Orogeny, is an orogeny that created mountain ranges that now lie in Central Asia. The orogeny is believed to have begun 200 - 150 million years ago (much of the Jurassic Period), when the Cimmerian plate collided with the southern coast of Kazakhstania, North and South China, enclosing the ancient Paleo-Tethys Ocean between them. The plate consisted of what are now known as Turkey, Iran, Tibet and western Southeast Asia. Much of the plate's northern boundary formed mountain ranges that were as high as the present-day Himalayas. The orogeny continued well into the Cretaceous and Early Cenozoic.- Charles -


I severely doubt the Cimmerian Orogeny was known in Howard's time, since plate tectonics was not yet accepted.

#169 deuce

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 07:57 AM

Also, the mentions of a minimum 500 years between Kull and the Cataclysm. Why not much more, 2500-5000 or so?



Hey Vilalt! More than, say, a 1500yrs just seems a little excessive, to me. There are many things concerning the Thurian Age, as I've noted before, in the Hyborian Age essay that would seem to take several centuries to come to pass. Much more than that would seem to be stretching what is stated in "THA" a little thin, IMO.

We have time to work with - Kull is 100,000 BC, and the Hyborian Age seems to end near the beginning of history (the "sons of Aryas" and the first Egyptians). So that gives us 90,000-95,000 between Kull's day and the end of the Hyborian age ... wow.


Personally, I place the initial "rise of the sons of Aryas" at the point where the Cimmerians and Nordheimr began to commingle on the shores of the Vilayet, giving rise to the Indo-European ("Aryan") peoples. The fact that linguistics/archaeology estimates the origins of the Indo-Europeans as being just 6-8,000 years ago means very little when weighed against what REH stated in his yarns (for the purposes of this discussion). According to the Greeks, the Egyptians claimed a very ancient history for themselves. Personally, I see the "Hyborian Age proper" as being situated somewhere between 40,000 to 20,000BC.

Atlantis is a primitive land in Kull's era, and Commoria/Commoriom needs time to rise and become the nation of both REH and CAS's works (name-dropped by HPL, too). [Commoriom is probably the real name, and Commoria an Aquilonian form used by some historian who the Nemedian Chronicler drew on - Aquilonian names are very Latin-style, and an -om to -a ending change is very much in the Roman style when adopting foreign names.]


"Commoriom" was a city in (Elder) Hyperborea. CAS identified his "Hyperborea" with Greenland in the story Ubbo-Sathla (HPL appears to have agreed with this). Elder Hyperborea seems to have flourished before the rise of the Thurian kingdoms, judging from Smith's stories.

"Commoria" was a kingdom situated somewhere in the northern tier of Thurian kingdoms.

Some Aquilonian names appear "Latinesque". Many, like Golamira, Tanasul, Gault, Shamar, Zelata, Gunderland, Tamar, Jon, Galparan, Khor, Valkia, Galter, Westermarck, Poitain, Khorotas etc... do not. According to Howard, very few Aquilonians (or ethnic Hyborians in general) survived to pass on anything to posterity after the end of the Hyborian Age.

Well, those are my two Valusian tals, anyway. :)

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#170 deuce

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 08:03 AM

Here's a post from the "Hyperboreans -- REH References" thread that seems pertinent to the discussion...

[quote name='deuce' post='73121' date='Sep 4 2007, 06:05 AM'][quote name='Gozer' post='73111' date='Sep 4 2007, 04:17 AM'][quote name='War Song' post='71757' date='Aug 11 2007, 05:05 PM']In my personal opinion, I believe Robert E. Howard's Hyperborea was intended as a subtle nod to Clark Ashton Smith. ...few people have explored the ties between Howard's Conan stories and Smith's Hyperborean Cycle.[/quote]
I posted a thread about this exact topic, proposing that exact idea, back in December. I agree with you wholeheartedly. :) Yeah, it isn't a 100% perfect fit, but I think a storyteller could make it work. The yeti-like creatures in Smith's Hyperborea were called Voormis, I think. I remember thinking that they may have been the ancestors of the Nordheimr.[/quote]

Hey Gozer (and War Song)! Some good ideas here. :) However, I think there might be a couple of things that y'all may not have considered. The Voormis seem to have been restricted to the "North American" Arctic (and may have been related to HPL's "Gnoph-kehs"). CAS firmly places Hyperborea in the same location as Greenland in Ubbo-Sathla. HPL positioned his land of Lomar just west of Hyperborea. There doesn't seem to have been a land-bridge between Hyperborea and the Thurian continent. The entire area occupied by Nordheim and "Younger Hyperborea" seems to have been ocean during the Thurian Age.

[quote]My scenario was about how the Hyperboreans of the Hyborian Age, as well as the rest of the Hyborian peoples, were direct descendents of CAS's Hyperboreans. When CAS's Hyperborea collapsed, the survivors turned Commoria and Thule into city-states, which became whole nations by the Thurian Age (the age of Kull of Atlantis).[/quote]

Elder Hyperborea was utterly glaciated and perhaps parts of it sank. Consider this: There are no mentions of Commoria or Thule in any of the Kull yarns. Then, in 1931, WT publishes The Tale of Satampra Zeiros followed by The Testament of Athammaus. Within are mentions of "Commoria", "Hyperborea" and "Mhu Thulan". Suddenly, in 1932, we see Commoria, Hyperborea and Thule mentioned in "TotE" and The Hyborian Age. The last two might be coincidence, but I can't see it with "Commoria". What about the "Old Race" of The Cat and the Skull? They came from the "sea" and "built cities on the shore". They were NOT "Elder Racians". I think that Commoria and Thule (and possibly other lands) were settled by Old Race/Hyperborean refugees from the old homeland. After they were conquered by the Elder Race (and later, the Thurians) they still maintained at least some sort of cultural traditions about their past.

[quote]Then, when the Great Cataclysm happened, these two nations also collapsed, and the survivors degenerated into the primitive tawny-haired barbarians that became the proto-Hyborians (their name became shortened into simply Hyborians). But there was one group who retained at least some knowledge of the previous great civilization, and became the Hyperbori. They considered themselves the true heirs of the mighty kingdom of the north, and tried to conquer the other Hyborians. This, coupled with attacks by snow-ape clans, spurred the Hyborian tribes southward, and the rest is history.[/quote]

That doesn't really jibe with The Hyborian Age, though, does it? I think that Bori's name could have been inspired by some echo of the old homeland. Perhaps there was a "Hyperborean cult" of priests/loremasters that kept some whisper of ancient glories alive. Or, perhaps "Hyperborea" simply means "people-land-of-Bori" in "proto-Hyborian" since "Hybori" seems to mean "people of Bori". A case of (partially) accidental linguistic recurrence, maybe.

[quote]This is just an idea I had, though. REH, CAS, and HPL were just friends who added little references to each others' stories; it's not like they actually sat down around a table and ironed out an official, canonical storyline or anything. But the above scenario is just an idea of how someone COULD connect REH and CAS, like for a gaming session or something.[/quote]

We know from their letters that all three discussed throwing in references. That's where HPL made his Lomar/Hyperborea comment. We know that REH heartily approved of CAS and HPL using his concepts as pivotal parts of The Double Shadow and Out of the Eons. Of course, as you point out, the three authors never sat around a table. I see what they did as more akin to three genius-class musicians having a verrry long improv/jam session, creating a greater work of art out of their disparate, but complementary, talents.

My two pazoors. :)
[/quote]

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#171 Fernando

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 01:40 AM

We have time to work with - Kull is 100,000 BC, and the Hyborian Age seems to end near the beginning of history (the "sons of Aryas" and the first Egyptians). So that gives us 90,000-95,000 between Kull's day and the end of the Hyborian age ... wow.


Personally, I place the initial "rise of the sons of Aryas" at the point where the Cimmerians and Nordheimr began to commingle on the shores of the Vilayet, giving rise to the Indo-European ("Aryan") peoples. The fact that linguistics/archaeology estimates the origins of the Indo-Europeans as being just 6-8,000 years ago means very little when weighed against what REH stated in his yarns (for the purposes of this discussion). According to the Greeks, the Egyptians claimed a very ancient history for themselves. Personally, I see the "Hyborian Age proper" as being situated somewhere between 40,000 to 20,000BC.


Very well said, Deuce! :D Other point which puts Hyborian Age in the date you've mentioned is, IMO, the fact of Sumeria - which, in REH's fiction, hapenned millenia after Conan's Age - had begun its civilization in 6,500 BC, agreeing with The Voice of El-Lil.

Some Aquilonian names appear "Latinesque". Many, like Golamira, Tanasul, Gault, Shamar, Zelata, Gunderland, Tamar, Jon, Galparan, Khor, Valkia, Galter, Westermarck, Poitain, Khorotas etc... do not. According to Howard, very few Aquilonians (or ethnic Hyborians in general) survived to pass on anything to posterity after the end of the Hyborian Age.


And it seems pretty obvious to me that, during and after Ice Age, the pre-Etruscans (descendants of Stygians, Hyrkanians and Picts) absorbed the "Latinesque" Hyborian names which survived. ;)

The two Valusian tals are yours, my friend! :D

#172 Vilalt

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 07:56 AM

Well, the Hyborian Age ended with another cataclysm. It seems convenient to connect that with the melting of the continental ice sheets and mass flooding c. 9400 BC; this still allows several thousand years before the Sumerians.


Maybe it was like this:

HPL's Mu was probably the oldest. T'yog's heresy was "in the year of the Red Moon (estimated as B.C. 173,148 by von Junzt)". Mu lasted quite a while after this, though; "many millennia" later, it sank in one night. Mu was South Pacific, so the fact that this puts it during an ice age is probably no big deal. Perhaps it sank with rising sea levels at the warming of the world.

Elder Hyperborea (i. e. CAS's Hyperborea) was probably during the Eemian interglacial (~135,000-115,000 years ago), allowing Greenland to be settled.

After the freezing of Greenland, in the Thurian age, during the last glaciation, Commoria was founded by the refugees from Commoriom and elsewhere in Hyperborea.

The Thurian cataclysm may line up with the "population bottleneck" of humanity during the last ice age.

Many long ages later, the Hyborian Age fills the end of the last Ice Age.

So, tentatively:
"Age" of Mu: T'yog c. 175,000 YA, but Mu lasted "many millennia" - sinking c. 135,000 YA with rising sea levels?
Hyperborean Age: 135,000-115,000 YA
Thurian Age: 110,000 - 80,000 YA (Kull ~100,000 YA)
--very long gap needs to be inserted here--
"Acheronian"/early Hyborian Age: ???30 or 25,000-20,000 YA
later Hyborian Age: ???20,000-11,400 YA

Edited by Vilalt, 22 November 2008 - 08:06 AM.


#173 Fernando

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 01:53 PM

I don't know if the excerpt below - a Helen Tavrel's speech in The Isle of Pirate's Doom - fits well in this topic. Anyway, here's it:

"Legend has it that when the Spaniards first sailed the Main, they found an island whereon was a decaying empire. The natives lived in mud and wooden huts on the beach, but they had a great temple of stone, a remnant of some forgotten, older race, in which there was a vast treasure of precious stones".


I wonder what kind of people could be this. :unsure:

Edited by Fernando, 12 February 2009 - 01:54 PM.


#174 deuce

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 02:39 PM

I don't know if the excerpt below - a Helen Tavrel's speech in The Isle of Pirate's Doom - fits well in this topic. Anyway, here's it:

"Legend has it that when the Spaniards first sailed the Main, they found an island whereon was a decaying empire. The natives lived in mud and wooden huts on the beach, but they had a great temple of stone, a remnant of some forgotten, older race, in which there was a vast treasure of precious stones".


I wonder what kind of people could be this. :unsure:


Hey Fernando! I believe I've mentioned the isle of Mogar somewhere before. I would think the pre-Indian "Old Mogarians" would've been part of the same empire as Bal-Sagoth.

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#175 Fernando

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Posted 12 February 2009 - 05:16 PM

Hey Fernando! I believe I've mentioned the isle of Mogar somewhere before. I would think the pre-Indian "Old Mogarians" would've been part of the same empire as Bal-Sagoth.


Thank you very much, Deuce! :D

#176 BasilBJr

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 06:53 PM

I know that Atlantis was a prominant earth fixture but I was just pondering. Do you think that when Howard created Kull he meant for it to be on a total fantasy world seperate from earth's past? But comics and later writers decided to place it a pre-hyborian age?? Any thoughts on the subject. :)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mondas,
If you're looking for evidence linking Kull to Earth's later history have a read of one of my favourites - the Bran Mak Morn/Kull story 'Kings Of The Night'.
Gonar, the wizard, says:
"Ages ago, in the days when the world was young, great lands rose where now the ocean roars. On these lands thronged mighty nations and kingdoms. Greatest of all these was Valusia - Land of Enchantment. Rome is as a village compared to the splendour of the cities of Valusia. And the greatest king was Kull, who came from the land of Atlantis to wrest the crown of Valusia from a degenerate dynasty. The Picts who dwelt in the isles which now form the mountain peaks of a strange land upon the Western Ocean, were allies of Valusia, and the greatest of all the Pictish war-chiefs was Brule the Spear-slayer, first of the line men call Mak Morn"
He then goes on to tell of the fading glory of the Picts, until at last the only ones left, in the time of Bran, are to be found "on the fringe of the world" in ancient Scotland, at the "last stand of a once mighty race."
So, proof indeed of a connection.



There is also an unfinished fragment where it is mentioned in "Nameless Cults" (one of Lovecraft's fictional bibliography) that the Hyborian Age is the blank spot of history between the age of Atlantis, and the modern historical period.

#177 Fernando

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 01:25 AM

There is also an unfinished fragment where it is mentioned in "Nameless Cults" (one of Lovecraft's fictional bibliography) that the Hyborian Age is the blank spot of history between the age of Atlantis, and the modern historical period.


Black Eons! A wonderful fragment!! Thank you for remember it, BasilBJr! :D

#178 BasilBJr

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 04:27 PM

There have been several subjects raised here and I will try to address some of them.

It is undeniable that the Thurian Age preceded the Hyborian Age. There are several metions of this in Howard's work. As already mentioned, The Hyborian Age essay, the story "Kings of the Night", the unfinished fragment I mentioned in a previous post, and in "The Tower of the Elephant" Yag-Kosha the elephant man gave a brief disertation of the history of the world. In it, he mentioned Valusia. As for the brown skinned Atlanteans mentioned by Skullface, and in Negari, that could have been the result of recycling the name,on the part of Skullface, and flawed historical memory on in Negari. Thousands of years tends to distort things.

The James Allison stories "Marchers to Valhalla", and "Valley of the Worm" would have had to have occured during the Nordic drift at the end of the Hyborian Age. There is mention of the Nordics when they were still know as Asier and Vanir, and also a mention of a time before the Stygians became the Egyptians. This suggests a Hyborian Age time frame. They could not have predated the Hyborian Age. The HA essay states that the Nordics were decended from ape people living north of the Arctic Circle, and were encountered by the early Hyborians. The ancestors of the Stygians, postumously named the Khari, were living in the land that would later became Hyrkania

As for the time frame of all this, that is a bit more difficult. The HA essay says that the Hyborian Age ended with an advance of the glaciers that actually did occur 12 thousand years ago, even though the Hyborians themselves were extinct by this time. The barbarian invasions that ended the Hyborian civilization began 500 years after Conan, so Conan could have lived as many as 13, 14, or 15 thousand years ago. Acheron was 3 thousand years before that, so Kull would be at a minimum 20 to 25 thousand years ago. Events such as the founding of Valusia and the Pict attack on the serpent men posing as kings could be as far back as 50 thousand years or more. The 100 thousand years Gonar mentioned could have been a metaphor, like us say a zillion.

As for why Gonar never mentioned Conan. It was for the simple reason that Conan did not exist at the time. Howard wrote both Kull and Bran Mak Morn before he wrote Conan or anything having to do with the Hyborian age. But besides that, why would he? Picts and Cimmerians were blood enemies. And the Northmen in Kings of the Night said they wanted to be lead by a king who was not a Celt or a Pict. They would not have heard of Cimmerians, but they would recognized Conan as a Celtic name. Conan was not relevant to the situation.

It is possible that Conan never heard of Kull. The Cimmerians had no memory of being Atlanteans as a result of the war of attritition with the Picts, and the second cataclysm. What few records there were of Kull's time would have been in the hands of scholars and wizards, and Conan, while not stupid, was not a scholar, and had little liking for wizards. It is unlikely he would have gone to the Aquilonia Public Library and read a book on Pre-Cataclymsmic history. Even if some he had heard of Kull, Conan was not given to hero worship, and knowledge of Kull was not relevant to his daily life. It was no more relevant to him that knowledge of Conan would be to Solomon Kane.

#179 Fernando

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Posted 08 April 2009 - 01:01 AM

You really did good comments on good subjects, BasilBJr! :D But, about the comment below...

Events such as the founding of Valusia and the Pict attack on the serpent men posing as kings could be as far back as 50 thousand years or more. The 100 thousand years Gonar mentioned could have been a metaphor, like us say a zillion.


... it was REH himself who wrote a timeline about some characters he created (unhappily, it was prior to Conan's creation... :( ), stating that Kull lived 100,000 years B.C. Thus, this Gonar's assertion was not a metaphor. B)

#180 deuce

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 09:15 AM


Posted Yesterday, 07:09 AM
If you buy the idea that REH was influenced by Scott-Elliot's maps for the Thurian Age, then you might have a large continental Atlantis with it's eastern side being the Mid-Atlantic Ridge and it's western edge being the eastern US seaboard/Appalachians. This would be in contrast to a later smaller "Poseidonis" insular Atlantis. If so then you have, from left to right, Lemuria/Mu (Pacific), Pictish Isles (Rocky Mts.), Atlantean continent, then proto-Eurasia/Thurian Continent, without a whole lot of open ocean between land masses (plus plenty of islands presumably, as well as Kaa-u in there somewhere).


Hey Theagenes! I have to say that (IMO) Howard was only vaguely influenced by S-E's maps (though I think the influence was definitely there). REH's Atlantis doesn't seem particularly large (I'd say Australia-size, maybe a little bigger, tops). Spence never tried to imply that the western Atlantean littoral was anchored on the Appalachians. IMO, the Appalachians are where the "Kelts" Howard referred to (and the "pre-Indians" of The Dwellers Beneath the Tombs) originated/dwelt.

Between the "Appalachian Isles" and the Pictish Isles one has a lot of open water. But, it would appear that the "northern horn" of the "Southern Continent" (referenced in MotS) would provide an easy port for any mariners voyaging betwixt the two archipelagoes.

If the Lemurian Isles were anchored on the east by Hawaii and on the west by Ponape, then a Lemurian voyage/raid to the Isles of Sunset wouldn't be anything notable. There's evidence that Hawaiian mariners visited the Californian littoral numerous times.

Kaa-u would be represented by "Caribbean" isles such as Bal-Sagoth and Mogar.

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