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Thurian Age: History and Geography (General Questions)

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#181 theagenes

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 01:47 PM

I agree, that S-E's maps only inspired REH (among other sources of inspiration), and I doubt he intended for Atlantis to be as large as S-E depicts in it's earliest phase either, but I we should keep that possiblity in mind. Spence, his other "Atlantean" source for MotS, also has Atlantis starting out as a continent with landbridges before it breaks up. So I do think REH had in mind a larger continental Atlantis for this early period as opposed to the smaller, insular Mid-Atlantic Ridge type Atlantis you get later in Moon of Skulls and the other "brown" Atlantean stories. Maybe Australia-sized as you suggest, maybe a little larger, maybe a little smaller, but continent-sized in any case. That was my basic point for the "Sea-faring" thread where this was originally posted.

I'm curious which Celts you're talking about. If you mean the ones in MotS, the context seems to suggest they are from Scandanavia or someplace similar. They come "from the North," from "the dim lands of MIghty Snows," and from the "the shores of the far North Sea." Of course those are post-cataclysm Celts. The Celts that are mentioned in passing in the untitled Kull frag aren't tied to any geographical location. Only that, like the Lemurian pirates, they occasionally come into conflict with the Picts. Taking everything together, unless I'm missing something, I would think Thule might be a better location for the homeland of the Thurian Age Celts. No real evidence for that---but it seems reasonable. Are there some Celts I'm forgetting?

"Dwellers" is a bit of an oddball story in that it's essentially a Children of the Night/People of the Dark story, but set in the Eastern US rather than Britain. It's a little tough to fit in with some with some of the other stories.
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#182 deuce

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 03:03 PM

I agree, that S-E's maps only inspired REH (among other sources of inspiration), and I doubt he intended for Atlantis to be as large as S-E depicts in it's earliest phase either, but I we should keep that possiblity in mind. Spence, his other "Atlantean" source for MotS, also has Atlantis starting out as a continent with landbridges before it breaks up. So I do think REH had in mind a larger continental Atlantis for this early period as opposed to the smaller, insular Mid-Atlantic Ridge type Atlantis you get later in Moon of Skulls and the other "brown" Atlantean stories. Maybe Australia-sized as you suggest, maybe a little larger, maybe a little smaller, but continent-sized in any case. That was my basic point for the "Sea-faring" thread where this was originally posted.


I have no doubt that REH's Atlantis at one time sported land-bridges to (what would become) the Thurian continent. Still, there is little to indicate that Kull's Atlantis was larger than Australia. IMO, it was bigger than Madagascar but smaller than Australia. Honestly, the "continental" nature of Atlantis was tacked on after Plato, who seems to describe a large island with smaller isles attendant.

I'm curious which Celts you're talking about. If you mean the ones in MotS, the context seems to suggest they are from Scandanavia or someplace similar. They come "from the North," from "the dim lands of MIghty Snows," and from the "the shores of the far North Sea." Of course those are post-cataclysm Celts. The Celts that are mentioned in passing in the untitled Kull frag aren't tied to any geographical location. Only that, like the Lemurian pirates, they occasionally come into conflict with the Picts. Taking everything together, unless I'm missing something, I would think Thule might be a better location for the homeland of the Thurian Age Celts. No real evidence for that---but it seems reasonable. Are there some Celts I'm forgetting?


People keep trying to dump Kelts and Vikings into Thule. Howard stated that it was a Thurian kingdom (though one with Elder Hyperborean roots, IMO). The "Celts" of the fragment seem situated close enough to the Pictish Isles that "vagrants" could contribute to the gene pool. Neither Atlanteans, let alone "Thuleans" are named. Such Celts, based out of the Appalachian archipelago, would be a thousand miles closer to the Picts, They would also explain the Hyborian Age Ligureans.

"Dwellers" is a bit of an oddball story in that it's essentially a Children of the Night/People of the Dark story, but set in the Eastern US rather than Britain. It's a little tough to fit in with some with some of the other stories.


Far from being "oddball", the Conrad & Kirowan yarns tie the Conan and Kathulos tales (along with the BMM and Solomon Kane yarns) together. The pre-Indians of "Dwellers" make sense if they have a Thurian Age origin.

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#183 theagenes

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 04:14 PM


I agree, that S-E's maps only inspired REH (among other sources of inspiration), and I doubt he intended for Atlantis to be as large as S-E depicts in it's earliest phase either, but I we should keep that possiblity in mind. Spence, his other "Atlantean" source for MotS, also has Atlantis starting out as a continent with landbridges before it breaks up. So I do think REH had in mind a larger continental Atlantis for this early period as opposed to the smaller, insular Mid-Atlantic Ridge type Atlantis you get later in Moon of Skulls and the other "brown" Atlantean stories. Maybe Australia-sized as you suggest, maybe a little larger, maybe a little smaller, but continent-sized in any case. That was my basic point for the "Sea-faring" thread where this was originally posted.


I have no doubt that REH's Atlantis at one time sported land-bridges to (what would become) the Thurian continent. Still, there is little to indicate that Kull's Atlantis was larger than Australia. IMO, it was bigger than Madagascar but smaller than Australia. Honestly, the "continental" nature of Atlantis was tacked on after Plato, who seems to describe a large island with smaller isles attendant.

I'm curious which Celts you're talking about. If you mean the ones in MotS, the context seems to suggest they are from Scandanavia or someplace similar. They come "from the North," from "the dim lands of MIghty Snows," and from the "the shores of the far North Sea." Of course those are post-cataclysm Celts. The Celts that are mentioned in passing in the untitled Kull frag aren't tied to any geographical location. Only that, like the Lemurian pirates, they occasionally come into conflict with the Picts. Taking everything together, unless I'm missing something, I would think Thule might be a better location for the homeland of the Thurian Age Celts. No real evidence for that---but it seems reasonable. Are there some Celts I'm forgetting?


People keep trying to dump Kelts and Vikings into Thule. Howard stated that it was a Thurian kingdom (though one with Elder Hyperborean roots, IMO). The "Celts" of the fragment seem situated close enough to the Pictish Isles that "vagrants" could contribute to the gene pool. Neither Atlanteans, let alone "Thuleans" are named. Such Celts, based out of the Appalachian archipelago, would be a thousand miles closer to the Picts, They would also explain the Hyborian Age Ligureans.

"Dwellers" is a bit of an oddball story in that it's essentially a Children of the Night/People of the Dark story, but set in the Eastern US rather than Britain. It's a little tough to fit in with some with some of the other stories.


Far from being "oddball", the Conrad & Kirowan yarns tie the Conan and Kathulos tales (along with the BMM and Solomon Kane yarns) together. The pre-Indians of "Dwellers" make sense if they have a Thurian Age origin.



I mean "oddball" in the sense that the other tales with the Children/PotD/Worms all take place in Britain, not that the Conrad & Kirowan tales are oddball in general---far from it; as you say they fit in well with the other yarns. And you're right a Thurian Age origin would explain it. On this side of the Atlantic you just the Indians drivign them underground instead of the Picts in the other stories.
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#184 RJMooreII

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Posted 14 April 2012 - 03:05 PM

I have read most of the Kull stories by REH, but I was wondering if anyone has done any interesting work on the Pre-Hyborean age when Atlantis was still around, or the Nemedians and Old Stygia, etc. Obviously REH had other projects aside from flushing out the Kull setting, but I have to wonder if someone has produced interesting Conantic stuff along these lines.

Sometimes I like to imagine that the old Atlanteans were Melniboneans just for fanfic laughs.
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#185 Kortoso

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Posted 16 April 2012 - 06:10 PM

Are you asking about pastiches?
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#186 deuce

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:30 PM

I have read most of the Kull stories by REH, but I was wondering if anyone has done any interesting work on the Pre-Hyborean age when Atlantis was still around, or the Nemedians and Old Stygia, etc. Obviously REH had other projects aside from flushing out the Kull setting, but I have to wonder if someone has produced interesting Conantic stuff along these lines.


If you're talking about Kull/Thurian Age pastiches, here's the thread: http://www.conan.com...topic=593&st=20

As far as "pre-Hyborian" history, that's what this thread looks into.

If by "Nemedians" you mean "Acheronians" they were (according to REH) a Hyborian race. Thus, their "age" would technically be the Hyborian Age.

The "Old Stygians" of Elder Stygia (at least the ruling class) would appear to be serpent-men. Later Stygians worshipped them, according to REH. Some interesting tales might be told of that period.

Sometimes I like to imagine that the old Atlanteans were Melniboneans just for fanfic laughs.


The "Brown/Imperial Atlanteans" from REH yarns like Moon of Skulls and Skull-Face certainly fit the bill. They even had a "Dragon Throne". I don't think Moorcock thought that up on his own.

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#187 RJMooreII

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 02:40 AM

The "Brown/Imperial Atlanteans" from REH yarns like Moon of Skulls and Skull-Face certainly fit the bill. They even had a "Dragon Throne". I don't think Moorcock thought that up on his own.

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#188 deadgrin

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 07:12 AM

I know this is off subject a bit but since Bal-Sagoth is the last remaining isle of Atlantis then was it part of the Thurian Age?

#189 Fernando

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Posted 20 June 2014 - 11:52 PM

I know this is off subject a bit but since Bal-Sagoth is the last remaining isle of Atlantis then was it part of the Thurian Age?

 

Of course it was! :) In TGoBS's end, we see the following excerpt: 

Turlogh and Athelstane leaned on the rail, gazing back at the swiftly receding Island of the Gods, from which rose a pillar of smoke, laden with the ghosts of a thousand centuries and the shadows and mysteries of forgotten empire, and Athelstane cursed as only a Saxon can.

 

Agreeing with REH, Thurian Age ended 100,000 years ago, when Atlantis sank.


Edited by Fernando, 21 June 2014 - 03:54 PM.


#190 deadgrin

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Posted 21 June 2014 - 02:14 AM

Thanx Fenando

#191 deuce

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 02:00 PM

Thanx Fenando

 

 

Yep, Fernando nailed it.  B)


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#192 deuce

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Posted 20 December 2014 - 02:06 PM

Our own Theagenes looks at the early days when REH was just developing his ideas about the Thurian Age here:

 

Part One:  http://www.rehtwogun...ur.com/?p=26376

 

Part Two:  http://www.rehtwogun...ur.com/?p=26378

 

Anyone interested in the deep roots of Robert E. Howard's interconnected fictional world-building (as opposed to coming up with ideas based on "feelings" or somehow snatched outta thin air) needs to read these blog entries.


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#193 Dantai

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 08:50 PM

Who the hell are the Ligureans?
"Nothing in this article is to be considered as an attempt to advance any theory in opposition to accepted history. It is simply a fictional background for a series of fiction-stories." - The Hyborian Age

#194 Dantai

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Posted 23 December 2014 - 10:21 PM

Having read those two blog posts, I'd also comment that it seems indisputably clear from the evidence that the LBB was not Howard's source for his understanding of theosophical Atlantis. The LBB was not an original work, but a summation of concepts already established in theosophy, so there are numerous other more likely sources than a book that hadn't been published yet from which Howard might have learned the concept. Square peg, round hole. But otherwise a very informative post.
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#195 Fernando

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Posted 25 December 2014 - 01:53 AM

Who the hell are the Ligureans?

 

If you wanna know about REH's Ligureans, read REH's fragment/sinopsys Wolves Beyond the Border. ;) Years ago, Deuce gave me a great explain about REH's Ligureans origins, when he told here in The REH Forum, Ligureans were an admixture between Picts and the Celts mentioned in Kull's fragment Wizard and Warrior. :)


Edited by Fernando, 25 December 2014 - 01:54 AM.


#196 Dantai

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 12:54 AM

Deuce? Care to enlighten me? I've read both but will have to do so again as it's been a long while.
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#197 deuce

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 08:29 AM

Deuce? Care to enlighten me? I've read both but will have to do so again as it's been a long while.

 

Quite honestly, it's Christmas and I have a blog/book project I'm working on. I talked about the Ligureans at the top of this page.  Read WBtB, read the Ronaro/Brule fragment. Read Dwellers Under the Tombs. I'll be more than happy to get back to the debate in a few days.  :)


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#198 theagenes

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 01:34 PM

Having read those two blog posts, I'd also comment that it seems indisputably clear from the evidence that the LBB was not Howard's source for his understanding of theosophical Atlantis. The LBB was not an original work, but a summation of concepts already established in theosophy, so there are numerous other more likely sources than a book that hadn't been published yet from which Howard might have learned the concept. Square peg, round hole. But otherwise a very informative post.


Hi Dantai,
I think you might have misunderstood the point of that section of my post (maybe I didn't make it clear). Yes, the LBB was too late to have influenced the 1923 letter to TCS that mentions Atlantis as a contemporary with "Accad" or the BMM reincarnation fragment, but neither of those are necessarily theosophy influenced. One is a passing mention of Atlantis and the other may simply have been influenced by the reincarnation elements in London's The Star Rover and HRH's Ancient Allan.

Obvious theosophical influence doesn't appear in Howard's stories until Men of the Shadows with the "Races of Man" concept (written in early 1926). In this the LBB was almost certainly the source (as opposed to Scott-Elliot, whom I previously suggested). As I've been studying the drafts for MotS recently I've also come to find out that the theospohical influence on the story is actually much less than previously thought -- the root race idea only appears in the final version. He throws it in there to give the story more of mystical flavor, but it's really just a superficial flourish. I just wrote a piece on this for REHupa and it will published publicly in the coming months.

As you noted, there are a quite a few theosophical publications out there. I have delved into them extensively trying to see which ones Howard might have read (including all the most obvious ones: Blavatsky, Besant and Leadbetter, Steiner, Scott-Elliot, etc.) and my conclusions were published in my original Theosophy and the Thurian Age article in TDM a few years back. But I'm always looking for new data or new evidence to tweak that initial model and that's what the discovery of this LBB was -- a new piece of evidence that helps make our understanding more clear. If you have other ideas or suggestions on specific theosophical publications that might have influenced Howard's work, please, by all means, share your thoughts. I would be very interested.
Jeff

Edited by theagenes, 26 December 2014 - 01:37 PM.

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#199 Dantai

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 09:47 PM

Hey Jeff,

 

My apologies, I misread the dates there. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

Regarding Ligureans, I don't see any mention of them in the Ronaro/Brule fragment, only Lemurians. I started reading it in the Lancer edition, edited and completed by Lin Carter, and was disappointed to see that it didn't have that Howard feel at all. I switched to the Del Rey and was startled to find just how needlessly Howard's lucid prose had been butchered. But anyway, no mention of Ligureans as far as I could see. I've started on WBtB, draft A. Last time I read it was in Complete Chronicles of Conan. Which draft was published in that?

 

Anyway, thanks for the tips, Deuce.


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#200 theagenes

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Posted 26 December 2014 - 10:52 PM

"Ligurean" is Howard's mispelling (or alternate spelling) of "Ligurian." The Ligurians were a group of people living in northwestern Italy in ancient times who spoke a Celtic language. In the racialist anthroplogy of the the 19th century that Howard made use of, they were considered part of the Mediterranean race like the Picts and other hard to classify European groups (Basques, Lapps, Finns, etc). In one of the drafts for Men of the Shadows they are listed as one the tribes of the Picts.

 

In WBtB, they are a non-Pictish tribe of savages living in the Pictish wilderness. Like the Picts they are white but not considered white by the Aquilonians. The fact that they are of the Mediterranean race but have a Celtic language would suggest that Deuce's idea of them being a Pictish-Celtic mix would make sense -- that's the way REH thought about things like this.


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