187 replies to this topic

[Mondas]

I have been looking at this map. http://www.dodgenet....lossom/Katl.htm And after reading Howards description of the Thurian continent I know its way off. Now howard never made a map like he did for the Conan series. There is not even a focal point for the reader to even try to make heads or tails from it. So what I did was put in my focal point and the maps starts to make a little bit of sence.
First. howard says in the Hyborian Age Essay that when the cataclysm happened the Pictish Isles sank and they began a new country which howard says was the southern frontier of Valusia. If we place these Pictish isles along the mid-alantic ridge then we can see how Valusia would have encompassed the Aquilonian region. Thule, Kamelia and Commoria would become parts of northern europe. Grondor would be eastern europe and the 'Lost Lands' would be parts of north africa and the mediterrian sea. and the World's End would be the russian steppe. etc. Lemuria wouldn't even be on the map at all. I always found it strange that where the map says Atlantis is has never matched. (Being the Atlantis enthusist I am) So I always pondered where the regions of this map lay. Because no matter how you figure it Atlantis always showed up where Iceland is and Howard says in the Hyborian Age Essay that it sank. So if we use the Mid-Atlantic ridge as a focal point for the pictish isles then it becomes clear that the Azores was actually the Atlantis in which Kull came from. Or if we use Miller and Clark's map from THE HYBORIAN AGE website http://hyboria.xoth....ps/original.gif the landmass it pushed out further making The mid-atlantic ridge Kull's atlantis and the pictish isles could easily be islands off the north american coast newfoundland or the Nova Scotia area. But I am going to use the hand drawn maps by Howard himself as found in THE COMING OF CONAN THE CIMMERIAN Book as a reference. Now if we choose not to use the mid-atlantic ridge as a focal point we can still come to this conclusion by using the river mouth just under Verulia which in turn would be the Straits of Gibralter or a corrosponding area. Using this river as a focal point we can still come to this conclusion and thus the Thurian continent would become just the continent of Europe and not an even larger continent. I say this because Lemuria is in the wrong place too. If this map is the Europe/Asian landmass then Lemuria didn't sink at all but became part of a larger landmass but howard states that this land also sank but on the map it appears to be in the extreme north which contradicts Howard. In the Hyborian Age Essay Howard states that the Cimmerians are decendents of the Atlanteans. And people fleeing a sinking atlantis would naturally sail to the Farsun or verulia areas, and also to the Valusia/Aquilonia area as Kull did If my theory is close to correct, This puts it very close to Cimmeria if not in Cimmeria itself. Now of course, geological upheavels play into this as well when creating new landmasses and sinking old ones. But I'm am confident in using the Mid-atlantic ridge as a focal point for the Pictish Isles. So to conclude- Valusia covers the Aquilonia area.

Edited by Mondas, 15 July 2005 - 05:16 AM.

[Mondas]

I know that Atlantis was a prominant earth fixture but I was just pondering. Do you think that when Howard created Kull he meant for it to be on a total fantasy world seperate from earth's past? But comics and later writers decided to place it a pre-hyborian age? Any thoughts on the subject.

Edited by Mondas, 16 July 2005 - 05:27 AM.

[Mondas]

A lot of people seem to be reading this but no one's responding.

[Ironhand]

Although there seems to be no direct connection between the Thurian Age and the present, REH actually proposes a continuous chain of logic between the Thurian Age, the Hyborian Age, and the Present.

Edited by Ironhand, 16 July 2005 - 09:52 AM.

[Mondas]

Does anyone know about Howard's story Marchers Of Valhalla??? About a modern man in Texas having dreams of past lives he lived during the Hyborian Age?

[Swiftsteel]

Marchers Of Valhalla seemed to me to be set somewhere in that period of upheaval between the fall of the Thurian continent and the rise of the Hyborean Age. In the story there is much talk of the Aesir and Vanir as nothing more or less than Stone Age-level wandering tribes - not nations - with the insinuation being that, as of the time period the tale is set in, there are still no 'Aesgaard' or 'Vanaheim' proper, only the wild, untamed, borderless region known broadly as 'Nordheim' - clues - which again, to my thinking delineate a period definitely after Kull, yet also unquestionably before Conan as well. Also, the civilization the Aesir characters encounter (after a looonnnggg eastward, overland drift across the 'Bering Strait' and down the western coast of the North American continent) seems to be of Lemurian origin, situated somewhere in proto-Mesoamerican Mayapan.

That's just my take obviously, but if you read the story right through and analyze it, those are definitely some logical conclusions.

Same logic applies to related REH tale The Garden Of Fear, which likewise involves the character of James Allison 'dreaming' his past as a pre-Hyborean Age Aesir tribesman named Hunwulf the Wanderer who comes into contact with sinister forces lurking in a prehistoric valley full of man-eating plants, a seemingly deserted tower, and the sole survivor of a malevolent, pre-human race. Good stuff! My copy is contained in the greater collection Pigeons From Hell.

Edited by Swiftsteel, 17 July 2005 - 06:21 PM.

[Mondas]

Where can I find Marchers Of Valhalla at? Or The Garden Of Fear? Are there any James Allison stories out? And where can I find them at? I'd especially like to read Marchers Of Valhalla.

[Swiftsteel]

If I'm not mistaken Marchers... is currently featured in a new printing of Howard's The Black Stranger & Other American Tales (or something to that effect). I saw a couple of copies just the other day in Chapters. As for Garden..., like I said, mine is in Pigeons From Hell which to my knowledge - unless also featured in the above volume - you will only be able to find via hunting through your local used bookstores or on Amazon.com, or EBay. Howard wrote another, similiar 'modern man dreaming of his ancient alter ego' tale featuring a character named John O'Brien (The People of the Dark also featured in Pigeons...) who 'dreams' himself back to a time when he was one 'Conan the Reiver', an Irish warrior battling invading Saxons who encounters a pocket of creatures similiar to the 'Worms of the Earth' from the Bran Mak Morn story cycle.

Again, all of these stories are only available as part of larger REH COLLECTIONS which are for the most part out of print. Only the The Black Stranger... anthology is currently available new at bookstores.

Edited by Swiftsteel, 17 July 2005 - 09:06 PM.

[Mondas]

Can it be found online anywhere?

[Mondas]

BUMPING TIME....

[Kail, or The Beekan]

I know that Atlantis was a prominant earth fixture but I was just pondering. Do you think that when Howard created Kull he meant for it to be on a total fantasy world seperate from earth's past? But comics and later writers decided to place it a pre-hyborian age?  Any thoughts on the subject.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mondas,
If you're looking for evidence linking Kull to Earth's later history have a read of one of my favourites - the Bran Mak Morn/Kull story 'Kings Of The Night'.
Gonar, the wizard, says:
"Ages ago, in the days when the world was young, great lands rose where now the ocean roars. On these lands thronged mighty nations and kingdoms. Greatest of all these was Valusia - Land of Enchantment. Rome is as a village compared to the splendour of the cities of Valusia. And the greatest king was Kull, who came from the land of Atlantis to wrest the crown of Valusia from a degenerate dynasty. The Picts who dwelt in the isles which now form the mountain peaks of a strange land upon the Western Ocean, were allies of Valusia, and the greatest of all the Pictish war-chiefs was Brule the Spear-slayer, first of the line men call Mak Morn"
He then goes on to tell of the fading glory of the Picts, until at last the only ones left, in the time of Bran, are to be found "on the fringe of the world" in ancient Scotland, at the "last stand of a once mighty race."
So, proof indeed of a connection.

[Kail, or The Beekan]

Marchers Of Valhalla seemed to me to be set somewhere in that period of upheaval between the fall of the Thurian continent and the rise of the Hyborean Age. In the story there is much talk of the Aesir and Vanir as nothing more or less than Stone Age-level wandering tribes - not nations - with the insinuation being that, as of the time period the tale is set in, there are still no 'Aesgaard' or 'Vanaheim' proper, only the wild, untamed, borderless region known broadly as 'Nordheim' - clues - which again, to my thinking delineate a period definitely after Kull, yet also unquestionably before Conan as well. Also, the civilization the Aesir characters encounter (after a looonnnggg eastward, overland drift across the 'Bering Strait' and down the western coast of the North American continent) seems to be of Lemurian origin, situated somewhere in proto-Mesoamerican Mayapan.

That's just my take obviously, but if you read the story right through and analyze it, those are definitely some logical conclusions. 

Same logic applies to related REH tale The Garden Of Fear, which likewise involves the character of James Allison 'dreaming' his past as a pre-Hyborean Age Aesir tribesman named Hunwulf the Wanderer who comes into contact with sinister forces lurking in a prehistoric valley full of man-eating plants, a seemingly deserted tower, and the sole survivor of a malevolent, pre-human race. Good stuff! My copy is contained in the greater collection Pigeons From Hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Swiftsteel,
I was interested in your reading of the story 'Marchers Of Valhalla', which is a bit different than my own. I always assumed that it was set in a time after Conan, but before the mass-migrations of the Cimmerians, Vanir, AEsir.... The story tells that 'lesser, nameless drifts (of the Northmen) had already begun', which fits in with my view that MOV happens after Conan's time, where he, as a man from the North travelling down-South, is the exception rather than the rule; later on, as the peoples of the North are forced South the drifts become a flood.
Also, my reading of the Conan stories always had places like Cimmeria, Vanaheim and AEsgard as being still very 'pure', (for want of a better word), where there has been little cross-pollination between the races or tribes: like MOV, the Vanir were red-haired and the AEsir golden (and the Cimmerians black-haired), so if a distinction is already being made between the AEsir and Vanir over hair-colour in MOV it seems reasonable to suggest that they are already separate countries.
Hialmar says that "it was a strange trek. It was no drift of a whole tribe, men and yellow-haired women and naked children. We were all men, adventurers to whom even the ways of wandering, warlike folk were too tame. We had taken the trail alone, conquering, exploring and wandering....", which suggests to me that they were like an earlier, and more extreme, version of the Vikings. Instead of a Stone Age-level tribe of wanderers (which would include women and children), they seem to me more like an established society, again like the Vikings, where the men would go off on their journeys leaving behind the women and children, and that, in turn, fits in with it taking place in a post-Conan Hyborian Age.
I do agree with your reading of the journey as it takes them from their place of origin in North-West Europe (as it would become), south and east through Asia, up and over the Bering Strait, and down through North America into Texas. Obviously, this is the land that lies far to the west of the Hyborian world, on the other side of the Western Ocean.
Near the end of the story, 'Ishtar' tells that she lived around about Kull's time, became immortal and survived the flood that drowned Atlantis, and ended up for many centuries in a "far land", which may or may not be Khitai (but sounds like Conan's world). Later, after a boat crash, she ends up in the land that Hialmar travels to, where the native people are mongrel descendants of the ancient Lemurians: to me, these natives (and their ancestors) sound as if they may have ended up in this land thousands of years before when the sea destroyed Kull's world, and lived during and after Conan's time. I can accept this because, of course, we know nothing about anywhere beyond the Western Sea in REH's Conan stories: anything is possible.
The only bit I don't get is at the end where we are given a list of all the 'different' goddesses that Ishtar would become to the people of the future; Greeks, Roman, Egyptians, Phoenicians etc are all mentioned, all races of the 'modern' world, which again suggests that it's set post-Conan, or else Howard would surely have mentioned what she was to the people of the Hyborian Age. But then, they had their own 'Ishtar', didn't they? So, is it the same one? Because she was immortal is she one-and-the-same? I wish REH had given us just a wee bit more info in the couple of paragraphs that deal with 'Atlantis' and 'Khitai'.
Since you mentioned 'Pigeons From Hell' I'm going to re-read 'The Garden Of Fear', which I had forgotten about.

[Kail, or The Beekan]

Howard wrote another, similiar 'modern man dreaming of his ancient alter ego' tale featuring a character named John O'Brien (The People of the Dark also featured in Pigeons...) who 'dreams' himself back to a time when he was one 'Conan the Reiver', an Irish warrior battling invading Saxons who encounters a pocket of creatures similiar to the 'Worms of the Earth' from the Bran Mak Morn story cycle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Check out also 'The Cairn On The Headland' for another 'dream' story.

[Mondas]

I have been looking at this map. http://www.dodgenet....lossom/Katl.htm And after reading Howards description of the Thurian continent I know its way off. Now howard never made a map like he did for the Conan series. There is not even a focal point for the reader to even try to make heads or tails from it. So what I did was put in my focal point and the maps starts to make a little bit of sence.
First. howard says in the Hyborian Age Essay that when the cataclysm happened the Pictish Isles sank and they began a new country which howard says was the southern frontier of Valusia. If we place these Pictish isles along the mid-alantic ridge then we can see how Valusia would have encompassed the Aquilonian region. Thule, Kamelia and Commoria would become parts of northern europe. Grondor would be eastern europe and the 'Lost Lands' would be parts of north africa and the mediterrian sea. and the World's End would be the russian steppe. etc. Lemuria wouldn't even be on the map at all. I always found it strange that where the map says Atlantis is has never matched. (Being the Atlantis enthusist I am) So I always pondered where the regions of this map lay. Because no matter how you figure it Atlantis always showed up where Iceland is and Howard says in the Hyborian Age Essay that it sank. So if we use the Mid-Atlantic ridge as a focal point for the pictish isles then it becomes clear that the Azores was actually the Atlantis in which Kull came from. Or if we use Miller and Clark's map from THE HYBORIAN AGE website http://hyboria.xoth....ps/original.gif the landmass it pushed out further making The mid-atlantic ridge Kull's atlantis and the pictish isles could easily be islands off the north american coast newfoundland or the Nova Scotia area. But I am going to use the hand drawn maps by Howard himself as found in THE COMING OF CONAN THE CIMMERIAN Book as a reference. Now if we choose not to use the mid-atlantic ridge as a focal point we can still come to this conclusion by using the river mouth just under Verulia which in turn would be the Straits of Gibralter or a corrosponding area. Using this river as a focal point we can still come to this conclusion and thus the Thurian continent would become just the continent of Europe and not an even larger continent. I say this because Lemuria is in the wrong place too. If this map is the Europe/Asian landmass then Lemuria didn't sink at all but became part of a larger landmass but howard states that this land also sank but on the map it appears to be in the extreme north which contradicts Howard. In the Hyborian Age Essay Howard states that the Cimmerians are decendents of the Atlanteans. And people fleeing a sinking atlantis would naturally sail to the Farsun or verulia areas, and also to the Valusia/Aquilonia area as Kull did If my theory is close to correct, This puts it very close to Cimmeria if not in Cimmeria itself. Now of course, geological upheavels play into this as well when creating new landmasses and sinking old ones. But I'm am confident in using the Mid-atlantic ridge as a focal point for the Pictish Isles. So to conclude- Valusia covers the Aquilonia area. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Kortoso]

Rather than trying to reconcile this with modern plate tectonics, maybe you could look at some old books on geology from the 1920's and such. I know that Howard made these lands for fantasy stories, and didn't intend for the Kull material to exactly align with the Conan material past a point, but if you look at what he believed about geology in his time, then you might find some interesting clues.

[Mondas]

Rather than trying to reconcile this with modern plate tectonics, maybe you could look at some old books on geology from the 1920's and such. I know that Howard made these lands for fantasy stories, and didn't intend for the Kull material to exactly align with the Conan material past a point, but if you look at what he believed about geology in his time, then you might find some interesting clues.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you know of any books or sites with pics that were in use in the 1920's?

[korak]

deuce writes- Drake and Jim Baen deserve great credit from Howard fans for bringing us (at that time) the first REH "library" in 20 years, all pure text (except for one SK tale). Drake championed the concept and Baen made it happen, all at a time when there was ZERO Howard on the shelves.


Didn't our fellow message board poster Joe Marek also edit and write the forewords to some of the Baens, if I am not mistaken?

deuce writes- In regards to your post, MC, these are my honest opinions. Though I hate to say it (since I consider Drake the better writer), I would look up the Tierney "Tigers of the Sea" edition. His completions seem to ring more true. You're right, "Land Towards the Sunset" is not high-grade Drake. He seems to be writing in his "Lord of the Isles" mode, which doesn't work well. On top of that, he ignores the REH/HPL/CAS Atlantis background and goes straight back to Plato. That irritates the REH pseudo-history scholar in me.


I am wondering what you mean by the REH/HPL/CAS Atlantis... I admit that it would be logical to put Cormac in the same continuity as Conan and Kull, but Howard had a separate conflicting Atlantis continuity for the Kane tales in which Atlantis was in the Opar/Plato mode. Which indicates that Conan and Solomon Kane do not even exist in the same universe, much less the same time period!

[deuce]

This post and several others (#s 17-30) have been moved from the "Cormac Mac Art and the Celts" thread. Their subject matter has FAR more to do with THIS thread than it EVER did with CMA.
Apologies for any inconvenience.

deuce writes- Drake and Jim Baen deserve great credit from Howard fans for bringing us (at that time) the first REH "library" in 20 years, all pure text (except for one SK tale). Drake championed the concept and Baen made it happen, all at a time when there was ZERO Howard on the shelves.


Didn't our fellow message board poster Joe Marek also edit and write the forewords to some of the Baens, if I am not mistaken?

deuce writes- In regards to your post, MC, these are my honest opinions. Though I hate to say it (since I consider Drake the better writer), I would look up the Tierney "Tigers of the Sea" edition. His completions seem to ring more true. You're right, "Land Towards the Sunset" is not high-grade Drake. He seems to be writing in his "Lord of the Isles" mode, which doesn't work well. On top of that, he ignores the REH/HPL/CAS Atlantis background and goes straight back to Plato. That irritates the REH pseudo-history scholar in me.


I am wondering what you mean by the REH/HPL/CAS Atlantis... I admit that it would be logical to put Cormac in the same continuity as Conan and Kull, but Howard had a separate conflicting Atlantis continuity for the Kane tales in which Atlantis was in the Opar/Plato mode. Which indicates that Conan and Solomon Kane do not even exist in the same universe, much less the same time period!

Well, Korak, Joe Marek DID propose several hypothetical "collections" using titles from the Baen series. The genesis of this entire thread seems to have been to provide a vehicle for Marek to "edit and write the forewords" for a "Berserk!" collection, amongst others. Why do you think that he's been so adamant? If you don't believe me, check out his post (#223) on "Questions for CPI". DAVID DRAKE (and Toni Weisskopf) was the editor for the entire "Robert E. Howard Library" from Baen Books, just as he was for the earlier "Cthulhu: the Mythos" collection (which turned on several of my horror-fan buds to REH). IF I left out Mr. Marek (though I don't think I did), then I also left out Ramsey Campbell, SM Stirling, David Weber, etc... so Joe is in good company. Drake and Jim Baen have been good friends to REH and I really don't understand why you've called me out on it. What they did in the 90's is similar to what Wagner (a friend of Drake and Baen) did in the 70's, which you've (rightly) ballyhooed. Do you even own the Baen series?

Ah, lost Atlantis... First off, what's with the exclamation point!!!? If I made you angry, it was never my intention, the same as for the other posts when the !s have come out. You seem to be accusing me of saying (or implying) that Conan and SK exist in the "same time period!". I'm not sure how THAT impression was ever made. I do believe they "exist in the same universe". I refrained from commenting awhile back when I read your "separate Kane universe" theory on another thread. Since you bring it up, let's take a look at the evidence. In late 1925, Howard wrote "The Isle of Lost Eons", or at least a fragment of it. We know that REH considered it an important piece since he went back to it several times (according to Glenn Lord). In "Isle", several gods are mentioned, including Valka, Hotath and Honen. Then, in "Men of the Shadows" (early '26), we hear a variant version, umpteen centuries handed down, of their stay in Atlantis. "The Shadow Kingdom" is written in late 1926. In the various Kull stories from then on, we hear of the gods Valka, Hotath and Honen. Meanwhile, Lovecraft and Smith love the idea of serpent(reptile)-men of Valusia and use them in their own stories. The first Solomon Kane tale, "Solomon Kane"(Red Shadows) is written in 1927. In 1928, Howard writes "Skull-Face". In it, an Atlantean sorceror, Kathulos, a survivor from an Atlantean EMPIRE, makes a bid to conquer the world. "Moon of Skulls"(SK), is written in 1929. Note: these dates are from Rusty Burke. In "Moon of Skulls", Kane talks to an Atlantean priest. The priest speaks of the empires of Atlantis and of Mu. The priest says,"We worshipped Valka and Hotah, Honen and Golgor."
So, we're supposed to suppose that Solomon Kane exists (after REH came up with the Kull-Conan-etc... universe, which he voluntarily intertwined with that of HPL & CAS) in a parallel universe that boasts a parallel Atlantean Empire, Mu, Valka, Hotath, etc... This AFTER Howard has already displayed his penchant for interconnecting his series heroes? The only thing standing in the way of this being interconnected are the lines in "The Hyborian Age" (pp381-2, Coming of Conan), where it's implied that ALL Atlanteans are barbarians. An easy example, well-known to Howard, is the British Empire. In 1700, Britain was on the cutting edge of the arts, philosophy, civilian and military technology etc... their overseas colonies stretched halfway 'round the globe. YET, to their immediate north and west, descended from Atlanteans (strangely? enough) were barbarians, LIVING WITHIN THEIR OWN SMALL ARCHIPELAGO, whose culture was (basically) a thousand years removed. Now, consider that Atlantis was a (albeit small) continent. Wouldn't there be room for the malcontents that conquered Thule and Commoria (maybe CIMMERIA, after the Cataclysm?)? THEY could have been holdouts who then sailed for the mainland. THEN, the Atlanteans left on the remnants of Atlantis called Poseidonis (by CAS), suitably chastened, could spend a few more centuries reflecting in the twilight of the post-Thurian Age before they too, went under. Meanwhile, the mainland Atlanteans carried on the pure, untainted bloodline.

I could write more, but it's late. I've been collating/annotating the combined works of REH/HPL/CAS. A gi-normous task. Believe this: I wouldn't make such statements without backup. I hope I've answered your questions.

[korak]

No, I am not calling you out on anything, just mentioning Marek since his name sounds familiar from something, I can't say right off exactly what. I do own all the Baens but most of them are put up because I replaced some of them with the new Del Reys so the only ones I have out are the four miscellaneous collections. I have not checked to see who edited them lately.

As far as the whole Lovecraft/ Howard continuity, I think you are taking it all way to seriously. I am something of a big HPL fan myself, and it is interesting to try to work out some of these background details, but ultimately you need to comprehend the use of the weird tales/ Lovecraft mythology-- it was just that for the most part, mythology, with the same continuity problems that you find in any true life mythology.

As far as I am concerned, the Hyborian Age makes an Atlantean empire impossible, if for no other reason than the fact that all mention of such is omitted. Plus the time factor cannot match a huge empire, though you have mentioned the brief flourish of the British empire, that is not a very accurate analogy since England has been civilized for hundreds of years before they were able to build an empire, besides which strong elements of that empire still exist in some form and shall for a long time (such as the fact that the queen is queen of the entire continent of Australia, etc.)

I think that Howard was capable of building more than one myth background, as you can see from the variety of sagas that he writes in his miscellaneous horror tales. Each one can be read in a separate continuity unless he specifically states that there is a crossover. In weird Tales the imagination was supreme, not strict adherence to some arbitrary continuity, even for individual authors, and when you attempt to cross over with Lovecraft and Smith, ultimately there is no way to be 100% consistent by any means. Even Lovecraft had serious conflicts in that regard within the context of his own fiction-- as their stories and concepts were written they evolved in various ways, and the bottom line was the impact of the individual tale and all other considerations such as continuity between tales was subordinated to that goal, the impact of the individual tale.

So it is fun to do what you are trying to do, but for me the biggest problem is making the leap that there was an Atlantean empire in the Conan/ Kull universe. That is a very arbitrary assumption you are making on the merest evidence that Howard happened to use the same god for both concepts, which in and of itself means little. It just means he was recycling the same god name to support the mythology.

Many things in the Cthulhu universe cannot be made sense of, even in the context of HPL's own stories much less in the vast range of the overall Cthulhu mythos. IMHO. That is fine to try to do what you are doing for fun, and many of us have tried to work out these kind of things in that way for ourselves as a hobby, but you should not take the Lovecraft mythos too seriously like it is a religion or something like that, because ultimately you will be disappointed I think.

[Taranaich]

I always preferred that, if you must put Solomon Kane in the Hyborian multiverse, then it's simply historical distortion. People linked the name Atlantis to some other ancient Kingdom (Valusia?) and resulted in Plato's interpretation.

I liken it to the modern image of King Arthur as a knight in shining medieval armour when he was most likely a grizzled, dangerous Dark Age Celtic Warlord.