[Buxom Sorceress]

KERN BOOK 3. 'SONGS OF VICTORY' by Loren L Coleman [LLC] [Ace 2005]

Kern the very troubled young blond 'Ymirish' outsider desperately tries to unite Cimmeria before his own inner, dark, 'explosive body-clock' stops ticking..

so welcome to the latest poor quality DUNGEONS+DRAGONS [D+D] RPG fan trilogy..
it is set in a 'fantastical' version of Cimmeria [in Hyboria] filled with very well known basic D+D monsters. they are copied straight from the 'monster manual' in every exact name + detail!
so now we know why young Conan fled his native land..cos it is plagued with lots of nasty big monsters?!?

Crom! we even have Cimmerians milking Giant Spiders for their venom!?! [so no honour among that clan then? poison is the most dis-honourable + despised weapon among real warriors.]
[ i would not have minded so much if most of these very rare + magical monsters had only been encountered in the remote lands north of Vanaheim + Asgard? but this book is set entirely in Cimmeria. + LLC should have at least changed some of their characteristics + given them more Hyborian style mystery by changing their names to suit the local legends? ]

basicly this book is just generic D+D style mass combats + a mixed adventurer group of mainly cardboard stereotype wimpy characters.

the book is mainly well written + most of the action/combats are good exciting + bloody grim. LLC has some good ideas + surprises but most of em are partly deflated + wasted by not making the most of them. he completely misses some great opportunities.
+ as with most drawn out trilogies there are too many chapters of pointless, dull filler.
most of the characters are boring + bland, especially Kern, + even the main evil ones!

LLC is an expert in wounds + gangrene + bandages + lard. pity he pays more attention to such details than in telling a good story!
the main story/plot is poor + boring + predictable with few real surprises, + has some silly + corny bits. even the big stormy climax battle is ponderous + corny + lacks impact.
[ oh, + this OTT version of Cimmeria has Cimmerians using bows, + even horse archers + lancers?!? "bah!"]

rating= 5 /10. just average, dull, soulless, cloned poor D+D. very disapointing poor plot.
so Hyboria still waits for its 1st new book faithful to S+S + great new hero + story?
[i am a big fan of rpg s + D+D is great when it is done well with imagination + flair]
----
PLEASE make sure u read the very detailed REVIEWS OF THE ENTIRE KERN TRILOGY by RING-HAUNTER [Ryan] in his pinned topic at the top of this forum.
he is a respected + popular reviewer of S+S + has officially been encouraged to write reviews + essays for this site + the site which is the home of the FLASHING SWORDS E-ZINE.

GET A WIDE RANGE OF OPINIONS b4 u believe any of the stuff in this review topic.
----
[ + consider that some of the hi-praising reviews on amazon + some of the 'manicly twisted UNTRUE' comments trying to trash me in here MAY be posted by folks who have a vested professional interest in PROMOTING SALES of the kern trilogy? ?
we dont believe everything that clever, cunning, manipulative politicians, salesmen, or slick adverts say or claim? do we now? pedantic + over-repeated 'passionate' claims of being 'right' + underhand attempts to trash the character of an 'opponent' usually just attract more suspicion of deceit?

NB. 1 thing u can be SURE of.. is that niether myself nor Ryan have any vested interests in the kern books at all! ]

i luv great HI-QUALITY S+S + D+D stories of many different types + authors.
[..i never thought that i would be relentlessly 'stalked' by the wobbling, unbalanced fossil of a Cimmerian deity..LOL ! ] ..

This post has been edited by Buxom Sorceress: 05 August 2005 - 07:21 AM

[budgie]

Buxom Sorceress, on Jul 31 2005, 08:19 AM, said:

KERN BOOK 3. 'SONGS OF VICTORY' by Loren L Coleman [LLC] [Ace 2005]

Kern the very troubled young blond 'Ymirish' outsider desperately tries to unite Cimmeria before his own inner, dark, 'explosive body-clock' stops ticking..

so welcome to the latest DUNGEONS+DRAGONS [D+D] RPG fan trilogy..
it is set in a 'fantastical' version of Cimmeria [in Hyboria] filled with very well known basic D+D monsters. they are copied straight from the 'monster manual' in every exact name + detail!
so now we know why young Conan fled his native land..cos it is plagued with lots of nasty big monsters?!? 

Crom! we even have Cimmerians milking Giant Spiders for their venom!?! [so no honour among that clan then? poison is the most dis-honourable + despised weapon among real warriors.] 
[ i would not have minded so much if most of these very rare + magical monsters had only been encountered in the remote lands north of Vanaheim + Asgard? but this book is set entirely in Cimmeria. + LLC should have at least changed some of their characteristics + given them more Hyborian style mystery by changing their names to suit the local legends? ]

basicly this book is just D+D style mass combats + a mixed adventurer group of mainly cardboard stereotype wimpy characters.

the book is mainly well written + most of the action/combats are good exciting + bloody grim. LLC has some good ideas + surprises but most of em are partly deflated + wasted by not making the most of them. he completely misses some great opportunities.
+ as with most drawn out trilogies there are too many chapters of pointless, dull filler.
most of the characters are boring + bland, especially Kern, + even the main evil ones!

LLC is an expert in wounds + gangrene + bandages + lard. pity he pays more attention to such details than in telling a good story! 
the main story/plot is poor + boring + predictable with few real surprises, + has some silly + corny bits. even the big stormy climax battle is ponderous + corny + lacks impact.
[ oh, + this OTT version of Cimmeria has Cimmerians using bows, + even horse archers + lancers?!? "bah!"]

rating= 5 /10. just average, dull, soulless, cloned D+D. very disapointing poor plot.
so Hyboria still waits for its 1st new faithful book + great new hero + story? 
----
[ i will discuss more details of this book in other posts in this thread later, if anyone is interested..? ]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Bux,
dont think Ill be buying this series.. looks like Ill continue reading the old books for now..

Budgie

[Primeval]

Haven't finished book 1 yet, but I also thought the same thing about the D&D comparison - feels more like a book from the Forgotten Realms series.

[Croms Bones]

Buxom Sorceress, on Jul 31 2005, 01:19 AM, said:

so Hyboria still waits for its 1st new faithful book + great new hero + story? 

Just curious if you could provide us with an author you would consider "faithful" to Hyboria given that we know almost nothing about what Hyboria SHOULD be. Note that "faithful" to Hyboria, is NOT the same as "faithful" to Conan.

Also, a link to where Howard specifically states that Cimmerians do not use bows whether on foot or on horse would be nice, since you keep bringing that up as an inaccuracy...

Lastly, just curious if you read the first 2 books as well.

I think what you mean to say, is that Coleman's view of Cimmeria/Hyboria, doesn't mesh with the one you have formulated in your own head, which is fine, but it doesn't make the author wrong, nor does it make him unfaithful...

[Strom]

I have to agree with Crom's Bones - inaccuracies are in the eye of the beholder - a la you're acceptance of inaccuracies in your favorite story "Conan and the Emerald Lotus". This is a straightforward S & S tale with realistic interpretations of the clans in Cimmeria and their diverse cultures within one land. All Cimmerians were not like Conan's clan and Coleman does a good job of detailing the differences based on the environment around each clan, be they in the mountains, plateaus, East, West etc. Cimmerians definitely strike me as survivors and the ability to adapt to their environment and make it benefit your clan is very likely. In all, I feel the novel was a success in telling a tale of a small hero other than the BIG hero Conan - in the Age of Conan.

Also, what about Ros-Crana or Desa? These are very strong able warrior women and were portrayed as such and I'm surprised you feel they were 'boring"? I feel after book 2, Kern’s band of outcasts was well developed and interesting.

[VincentDarlage]

Croms Bones, on Aug 1 2005, 01:33 AM, said:

Also, a link to where Howard specifically states that Cimmerians do not use bows whether on foot or on horse would be nice, since you keep bringing that up as an inaccuracy...

How about from Queen of the Black Coast: 'Give me a bow,' requested Conan. 'It's not my idea of a manly weapon, but I learned archery among the Hyrkanians, and it will go hard if I can't feather a man or so on yonder deck.'

Thus, Conan did not learn archery in Cimmeria. It seems likely then that his tribe, at least, did not use bows and it may seem reasonable to some to extrapolate that to being the case in most of Cimmeria.

Anyway, outside of that, Coleman really messed with the geography of Cimmeria.

John Maddox Roberts names Conan's clan as Canach, but Loren L. Coleman renames the clan Conarch.

John Maddox Roberts establishes Ben Morgh in the north-east of Cimmeria (and the valley of Conall), but Coleman moves it to the north-west.

Prior books establish the Black Mountains as the border between Cimmeria and Pictland (and the source of the Black River), but Coleman treats the range as the border of Cimmeria and Border Kingdom.

Coleman claims the Murrogh Clan have no interest in horses, but the clan's creator, John Maddox Roberts, claims they cared enough about horses to start a feud with Conan's clan over them.

Virtually all the geography is at odds with prior materials because of the misplacement of Ben Morgh and the Black Mountains (for example, the Pass of Blood would go into Asgard, not Vanaheim, and much of the plot revolves around Vanir raiders).

Coleman seems confused about his own geography. On page 62, he says the Black Mountains form the border with the Border Kingdom, but later claims the Hoath Plateau and the Field of Chiefs lies EAST of those mountains (placing them in the Border Kingdom) (pg 35 and 234).

This post has been edited by VincentDarlage: 13 April 2007 - 12:33 PM

[Croms Bones]

VincentDarlage, on Aug 1 2005, 11:00 AM, said:

Thus, Conan did not learn archery in Cimmeria.  It seems likely then that his tribe, at least, did not use bows and it seems reasonable to extrapolate that to being the case in most of Cimmeria.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why would it seem reasonable to extrapolate that given that the author puts so much emphasis on making the reader know that clans vary greatly in culture and tradition? You've essentially just asked us to sterotype every Cimmerian or indeed "most" of Cimmeria based off of one man's opinion.

Read the books, and I think you'll find clans completely different in these aspects that are in close proximity geographically. We're introduced to just a few of the northern clans in this book, and every one of them is different.

A very weak analogy would be to equate this to our own Native Americans. A lot of different cultures with completely different life styles, many of which living in a close proximity to each other. Surely you can't agree with the statement that because the Cherokee didn't like hunting with a spear, that "most" indians do not like hunting with a spear.

We're not looking for a quote from Conan.. if you've read the books I think you'll find that Conan is not viewed as a very good character witness for Cimmeria.

The answer to the question is of course, it's not unreasonable at all for Cimmerians to use bows. In fact, common sense tells us of course they did. EVERY civilization know to man since the advent of the bow has used it... afterall, a Cimmerian's got to eat, and running down a buck in the dead of winter with your dagger isn't going to feed the village.

If part of your vision of Cimmeria is that they do not use bows, and/or other projectiles, that's fine, I can see the interest in that quite a bit... doesn't seem logical to me, but then again, it doesn't need to be logical. However, and once again, this doesn't make the author incorrect, or unfaithful.

[Primeval]

Croms Bones, on Aug 1 2005, 08:03 PM, said:

VincentDarlage, on Aug 1 2005, 11:00 AM, said:

Thus, Conan did not learn archery in Cimmeria.  It seems likely then that his tribe, at least, did not use bows and it seems reasonable to extrapolate that to being the case in most of Cimmeria.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why would it seem reasonable to extrapolate that given that the author puts so much emphasis on making the reader know that clans vary greatly in culture and tradition? You've essentially just asked us to sterotype every Cimmerian or indeed "most" of Cimmeria based off of one man's opinion.

Read the books, and I think you'll find clans completely different in these aspects that are in close proximity geographically. We're introduced to just a few of the northern clans in this book, and every one of them is different.



We're not looking for a quote from Conan.. if you've read the books I think you'll find that Conan is not viewed as a very good character witness for Cimmeria.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He quoted from a REH story to show that Conan did not learn the bow in Cimmeria. Considering that REH CREATED Conan, I think that holds a bit more weight than anything Leonard Coleman writes.

And you are basing your arguments against someone arguing for the REH Conan by using the work of a pastiche writer. The "extrapolation" being made is from canon, not pastiche works.

Having said that, I will agree that just becuase Conan never learned doesn't mean other Cimmerians didn't use bows. Howard never gave us much insight into Cimmerian culture really.

[Croms Bones]

Primeval, on Aug 1 2005, 02:40 PM, said:

Having said that, I will agree that just becuase Conan never learned doesn't mean other Cimmerians didn't use bows. Howard never gave us much insight into Cimmerian culture really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes.. I agree with everything you said.. though I'm not arguing against anything or anyone other than to the point that there is no right and wrong within Coleman's writing.

My entire argument being that you cannot be unfaithful to an area in which you have no standard to measure against.

We all know how Conan should be, so we can all slam the pastiches where Conan is the main character and is portrayed inaccurately... REH wrote just enough Conan that we can all form a fairly accurate picture in our heads as to the "real" Conan... however, very little is known about Hyboria so the same is not true.

The fact of the matter is that we simply don't know... and to me, that is the beauty of Hyboria in and of itself.

[Primeval]

Croms Bones, on Aug 1 2005, 09:49 PM, said:

Primeval, on Aug 1 2005, 02:40 PM, said:

Having said that, I will agree that just becuase Conan never learned doesn't mean other Cimmerians didn't use bows. Howard never gave us much insight into Cimmerian culture really.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes.. I agree with everything you said.. though I'm not arguing against anything or anyone other than to the point that there is no right and wrong within Coleman's writing.

My entire argument being that you cannot be unfaithful to an area in which you have no standard to measure against.

We all know how Conan should be, so we can all slam the pastiches where Conan is the main character and is portrayed inaccurately... REH wrote just enough Conan that we can all form a fairly accurate picture in our heads as to the "real" Conan... however, very little is known about Hyboria so the same is not true.

The fact of the matter is that we simply don't know... and to me, that is the beauty of Hyboria in and of itself.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very good points, and well-stated. I am still in the first book, and although there have been a few moments where things haven't quite matched my own personal images of Cimmeria, Coleman hasn't done anything that directly contradicts Howard. And I am enjoying the book so far, I hope the whole trilogy turns out well. The Stygian one is the one I really am looking forward to though.

[daknight]

I am only half-way through the first book, though I have all three. The only thing that bugged me was the idea of a Cimmerian wearing a "poncho" and while most of the writing is competent and even gripping at times, some sentances seem fragmented for no real reason. Sometimes it can be effective, but with Coleman sofar that is a style thing that to me seems haphazardly sprinkled throuout. I, too, have high hopes for the Stygian trilogy.

[Croms Bones]

daknight, on Aug 1 2005, 04:15 PM, said:

I am only half-way through the first book, though I have all three.  The only thing that bugged me was the idea of a Cimmerian wearing a "poncho" and while most of the writing is competent and even gripping at times, some sentances seem fragmented for no real reason.  Sometimes it can be effective, but with Coleman sofar that is a style thing that to me seems haphazardly sprinkled throuout.  I, too, have high hopes for the Stygian trilogy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think everyone has very high hopes for the Stygian trilogy.. it's the most appealing one to me so far as well.. I think because of the mystery and evil that is personified, the setting has great story potential. I'd also love a series on Zamora and Turan. We need a really good book with a deadly assassin/thief, and Zamora would make for an excellent setting for that.

I keep waiting for them to update the site with a sample chapter...

Also, concerning sentence fragments, I didn't notice them as much in the 3rd book as I did in the first... I'm not sure if that's because I got used to it, or they weren't as frequent...

This post has been edited by Croms Bones: 02 August 2005 - 12:32 AM

[VincentDarlage]

Croms Bones, on Aug 1 2005, 08:03 PM, said:

Read the books.. if you've read the books I think you'll find that Conan is not viewed as a very good character witness for Cimmeria.

I have read the books. Other than the author's absurd over-reliance on sentence fragments, I thought they were okay books.

I was simply offering the quote from REH that was requested. It wasn't offered as a criticism of the author, just the quote and an explanation why some people have decided no one in Cimmeria uses bows.

I agree that Conan is not a good witness for Cimmeria. It is fairly well established in Phoenix on the Sword that Conan is not a typical Cimmerian.

[Swiftsteel]

I'm still in the early stages of Blood Of Wolves, although I've gone ahead and purchased the others as well. As I think I've said before...so far so good. I'm not too thrilled with the whole 'poncho' debacle either, but hey, all things considered that's such a small literary bungle it's really hardly worth mentioning I guess. I'm willing to take these books for what they are, which is simply a new author's interpretation of Hyboria.

[Ironhand]

I've been reading about the "poncho issue", and not giving it very much thought, when it suddenly popped into my head (as most ideas do) that the proper northern European term for a poncholike garment is "mantle".

[Primeval]

Ironhand, on Aug 2 2005, 09:36 PM, said:

I've been reading about the "poncho issue", and not giving it very much thought, when it suddenly popped into my head (as most ideas do) that the proper northern European term for a poncholike garment is "mantle".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That sounds much better! It wouldn't bother me so much if he didn't keep using the word "poncho" so much

Also, is it me or do the characters speak without an "accent" 99% of the time, and then every now and then slip into a "Braveheart" style of speaking?

[Strom]

Ironhand, on Aug 2 2005, 04:36 PM, said:

I've been reading about the "poncho issue", and not giving it very much thought, when it suddenly popped into my head (as most ideas do) that the proper northern European term for a poncholike garment is "mantle".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Plus, the "ponchos" in the Kern books are made of leather. Now, I was stationed in a border town in the Corps and shopped in Mexico many a day and never saw a leather poncho. Mayhap a mantle is made of leather? Since the 'ponchos' in the Kern books were described as being made of leather and would have a purpose (i.e. protection in combat and vs. the elements) the term didn't bother me.

I didn't notice the change in speak so much Primeval - maybe when they had more to say then "I'm with you" did they switch to the Nay and Yea speak?

[Primeval]

Strom, on Aug 2 2005, 10:32 PM, said:

I didn't notice the change in speak so much Primeval - maybe when they had more to say then "I'm with you" did they switch to the Nay and Yea speak? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Doesn't seem to be a pattern, just kind of out of the blue. Not enough of an issue to lessen my enjoyment of the book, but you know me, I have to find something to complain about

[Strom]

Primeval, on Aug 2 2005, 05:34 PM, said:

Doesn't seem to be a pattern, just kind of out of the blue. Not enough of an issue to lessen my enjoyment of the book, but you know me, I have to find something to complain about

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

- My biggest complaint about the book - and one I mentioned in another thread and a point no one else seems to mind - is the original creation of a new race in Hyboria, the Ymirish. I just don't understand why a new race had to be introduced when the races Howard created are so vibrant and unexplored. Plus, Coleman makes the protagonist an Ymirish. Strange.

[Buxom Sorceress]

Croms Bones, on Aug 1 2005, 01:33 AM, said:

..I think what you mean to say, is that Coleman's view of Cimmeria/Hyboria, doesn't mesh with the one you have formulated..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i said..
"oh, + this OTT version of Cimmeria has Cimmerians using bows, + even horse archers + lancers?!? "bah!"."

but why did LLC stop there? what about using the..
..Cimmerian [cim] dire wolf riders?[ a terrified kern clinging on to Frostpaws mane?]
..cim giant spider riders or herders?
..cim gas bombers? [ throwing exploding orbs of marsh gas?!?]
..cim megalith artillery [huge siege catapults chucking massive standing stones for 1 mile?!? ]
[ so will all these appear in the next cim D+D trilogy?! ]

all these 'silly' things are 'possible' ONLY in the minds of folks who do not understand the essential spirit + basic definitions of the Hyboria stated + also strongly implied by Howard.[as discussed in great detail by lots of REH fans in these forums + on other sites. read up on it b4 u start your next controversial trilogy-yawn?]

the fact that LLC has tried to turn Cimmeria/Hyboria into another 'D+D land' where monsters + magic + freaks are the accepted 'norm' shows his ignorance of REHs Hyboria.
in most of the human settled areas of Hyboria monsters are unheard of, except feared in old legends. monsters should usually be very rare + only in very remote wild unpopulated regions.
but ofcourse demons can be summoned to any area by a rare powerful sorcerer, + thats why REH used demons a lot in his tales set among human towns.

in your flimsy defence u are just trying to 'grasp at minor straws' while u completely avoid my 2 MAIN gripes about book 3..
1.that the main story/plot is poor, boring, drawn out, + predictable with few real surprises, + has some silly + corny bits. even the big stormy climax battle is ponderous + corny + lacks impact.
2. it is set in a dull, mediocre 'corny D+D version of Cimmeria' filled with very well known basic D+D monsters. they are copied straight from the 'monster manual' in every exact name + detail without any imaginative use or regard for the spirit of Howards Hyboria.

rating= 5 /10. just average, dull, soulless, cloned D+D. very disapointing poor plot.
only the mostly well written + exciting, grim combats saved this sad book from getting 3 /10 rating!
--------
dear VINCENT DARLAGE, many thanks for the REH quote about bows + your wise words.
big kisses from a 'buxom user of spears + javelins' [when in Cimmeria]***