85 replies to this topic

[Ironhand]

Conan's lion banner is supposed to be a reference to his notorious nickname of Amra, the Lion.

[Ant]

Conan's lion banner is supposed to be a reference to his notorious nickname of Amra, the Lion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's an interesting idea...

I'd always assumed that it was just a coincidence, that the lion of Aquilonia predated Conan as king.

But the lions of England -- gules (red) three lions passant guardant or (gold) -- come from the arms of Richard Lionheart, so there is a real historical precedent if it were the case.

Can anyone recall anything REH wrote that suggested Aquilonia adopted the lion banner only after Conan became king?

Ciao,
Ant

[Ironhand]

Look in HotD, I can't tell you exactly where. The banner of the noble-born usurper is described, and I assumed it was the banner of Aquilonia, pre-Conan.

[Buxom Sorceress]

the symbol of the 'roman military Eagle' always sticks in my mind when i think about pre-Conan Aquilonia? maybe its cos after reading HOT-Dragon i thought that Aquilonia seemed like a province of medieval france with castles + knights - crossed with the culture, organisation + agricultural big estates + villas of Roman influence? [REH sure liked to mix + match from history]

if any of u find any 'eagle signs' in your research of HOTD please let me know?
[ ofcourse, i could have read it in 1 of the pastiches? ]

thanks for all your interesting comments.

[Ant]

OK... since the public-domain text is available electronically on Wikisource... http://wikisource.or...r_of_the_Dragon

It was uncanny, but those watching knew it was no more than the reflected image of Orastes' thought, embodied in that mirror as a wizard's thoughts are embodied in a magic crystal. It floated hazily, then leaped into startling clarity-a tall man, mightily shouldered and deep of chest, with a massive corded neck and heavily muscled limbs. He was clad in silk and velvet, with the royal lions of Aquilonia worked in gold upon his rich jupon, and the crown of Aquilonia shone on his square-cut black mane; but the great sword at his side seemed more natural to him than the regal accouterments. His brow was low and broad, his eyes a volcanic blue that smoldered as if with some inner fire. His dark, scarred, almost sinister face was that of a fighting-man, and his velvet garments could not conceal the hard, dangerous lines of his limbs. [My emphasis.]

Note "lions" plural; but REH doesn't tell us what colour his jupon was.

The two hosts confronted each other across a wide, shallow valley, with rugged cliffs, and a shallow stream winding through masses of reeds and willows down the middle of the vale. The camp-followers of both hosts came down to this stream for water, and shouted insults and hurled stones across at one another. The last glints of the sun shone on the golden banner of Nemedia with the scarlet dragon, unfurled in the breeze above the pavilion of King Tarascus on an eminence near the eastern cliffs. But the shadow of the western cliffs fell like a vast purple pall across the tents and the army of Aquilonia, and upon the black banner with its golden lion that floated above King Conan's pavilion. [My emphasis.]

Note "lion" singular; but REH doesn't tell if this is the Aquilonian banner or Conan's personal banner.

And while the fallen king stared with burning eyes that reflected the bitter rage and humiliation that ate his heart, the squires stripped Valannus of mail shirt, burganet and leg-pieces, and clad him in Conan's armor of black plate-mail, with the vizored salade, and the dark plumes nodding over the wivern crest. Over all they put the silken surcoat with the royal lion worked in gold upon the breast, and they girt him with a broad gold-buckled belt which supported a jewel-hilted broad-sword in a cloth-of-gold scabbard. While they worked, trumpets clamored outside, arms clanged, and across the river rose a deep-throated roar as squadron after squadron swung into place. [My emphasis.]

Note "lion" singular, again. Also "the royal lion", implying that it belongs to the King, whoever he is.

The Nemedian army came on in similar formation and the two hosts moved toward the river, the wings, in advance of the centers. In the center of the Aquilonian host the great lion banner streamed its billowing black folds over the steel-clad figure on the black stallion. [My emphasis.]

Mmm... it could be still be a personal banner.

CONFIRMATION OF THE war came when the army of Poitain, ten thousand strong, marched through the southern passes with waving banners and shimmer of steel. And at their head, the spies swore, rode a giant figure in black armor, with the royal lion of Aquilonia worked in gold upon the breast of his rich silken sur-coat. Conan lived! The king lived! There was no doubt of it in men's minds now, whether friend or foe.

Well, that seems pretty unambiguous. It's the "royal lion of Aquilonia", not of the king personally, not of Conan.

There are further mentions, but they add nothing more.

Ciao,
Ant

[budgie]

A little something I knocked up based on the Scottish Royal standard



Working on trying to animate it too..

Budgie

[Ant]

Nice work, budgie! Any chance of a larger version?

My only criticism is that you've done something strange to the "border" -- technically, the double tressure flory counter-flory. In reducing it to a single tressure, you've lost the inner halves of the fleurs-des-lis... in British heraldry, a tressure flory has only fleurs-de-lis heads on the outside, no tails. But maybe what you've done is OK in Aquilonian heraldry. Oh, and the lion's tongue and claws might be better red than blue.

Cordialement,
Ant

Edited by Ant, 03 September 2005 - 11:19 AM.

[Ant]

OK... I had a go myself. I've fixed the problem with the fleurs-de-lis and made the lion a little larger the better to fill the space within the tressure.



And for completeness, one version with the double tressure and one with none.



Ciao,
Ant

Edited by Ant, 03 September 2005 - 12:16 PM.

[Kortoso]

You know guys, I know your hearts are in the right place, but making a simple Hyboria - Medieval equation like this doesn't really serve The Cause. Do you really want to believe that a civilization 10,000 years ago would have exactly this kind of heraldic lion?

The basic concept is good, but of course I'd like to see a lion that is both similar and different. If that makes sense.

[Strom]

I've always liked the Lion head image from the Marvel Comics. Seemed more ferocious and intimidating. The Lion rearing up looks too much like Bubbles from the Detroit lions:




And we all know Bubbles - and the Lions - don't scare anyone!

Maybe you Photoshop gurus can try it with just the Lion head? Even if the Lion heraldry was in place in Aquilonia before Conan's rule - which makes sense to me - I would think Conan might of changed the look a little to reflect his rule.

[budgie]

Ant,
I removed the inner part of the double tressure flory counter-flory to make it different as you surmised.. I still think it doesnt look right and having just the lion aint right either.. its needing something though..The red on yours looks good, shows up much better than my blue

Korutso.. Asd you know Hyboria doesnty exist in reality so how can it be right or wrong?.. only REH knows exactly what it looks like and he aint telling anyone..

The reasoning for using the Royal Scot flag is simple.. REH based his Cimmerian nations on the Scots, right? You could argue then that using the Scots lion (Rampant and proud unlike the submissive English lions) would argue a Cimmerian influenced Aqualonian flag.. However if your gonna use that argument the "historically Aqualonia is now France so you should base it on the French interperatation of Lions..

At the end of the day its just a little fun.. any other ideas for how it would look would be interesting to see..

Budgie

[Ant]

You know guys, I know your hearts are in the right place, but making a simple Hyboria - Medieval equation like this doesn't really serve The Cause. Do you really want to believe that a civilization 10,000 years ago would have exactly this kind of heraldic lion?

The basic concept is good, but of course I'd like to see a lion that is both similar and different. If that makes sense. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not quite sure what "The Cause" is, Kortoso. REH plundered and compressed centuries of history to furnish the nations of the Hyborian Age. He appropriated a lot of stuff that only belonged to later ages and made it part of his tapestry. What does REH mean when he says, oh, "scimitar"? That's a kind of sword that's contemporaneous with the kind of heraldry that budgie and I are playing with. Surely swords in the Hyborian Age weren't exactly like what we picture when we read "scimitar"... ? And in any case, on of the key things about heraldry is that it's the content not the rendering that's important. We have a gold lion on a black standard. How that lion looks is up to the artist...

... the Scots lion (Rampant and proud unlike the submissive English lions) ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oi! Submissive English lions indeed. Passant guardant rather than rampant is hardly submissive!

Anyway, according to many sources the English "lions" are technically leopards...

The baron, striving in vain to rally his men, rode straight at the clump of knights that followed the giant in black armor whose surcoat bore the royal lion, and over whose head floated the golden lion banner with the scarlet leopard of Poitain beside it.

Cheers,
Ant

[budgie]

[quote name='Ant' date='Sep 3 2005, 10:32 PM']
[quote name='budgie' date='Sep 3 2005, 07:20 PM']... the Scots lion (Rampant and proud unlike the submissive English lions) ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]
Oi! Submissive English lions indeed. Passant guardant rather than rampant is hardly submissive!

Anyway, according to many sources the English "lions" are technically leopards...

[.[/quote]

Cheers,
Ant

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[/quote]


Gotcha

So potentially you could use a variation of the English flag to represent the Potain flag.. interesting.. What was on the Bossian flag? a leek?

Budgie

[Kortoso]

Korutso.. Asd you know Hyboria doesnty exist in reality so how can it be right or wrong?.. only REH knows exactly what it looks like and he aint telling anyone..

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right you are. I'll what other ancient lion depictions I can find...

[Kortoso]

The following images are both from ancient Assyria. It's interesting that one should be formal and stiff, while the other should be amazingly lifelike:



Also some lion images from medieval bestiaries:
http://bestiary.ca/b...stgallery78.htm

Food for thought, you know...

Edited by Kortoso, 20 September 2005 - 10:02 PM.

[PainBrush]

Here's one I did some odd years ago for something else than Conan's Pennon or banner . But I think considering his gigantic mirth , I could see him riding into the tide of battle & the looks of astonishment & fear when his foes get sight of this........

I can almost hear a poetic R.E.Howard style description sung by the bards.............

With great affront the Lions foes are beset .
felled by the scores in the wrath of his ire .
Hearken these words , by days end yet
all knees shall bend midst shouts of "Great Sire".

By wan armies the kingdom never again impuned
he has conquered all , by force , by guile or by wit .
Trampled their yurts , and wassail to our wounds ,
in his wake their cities smouldering piles.............

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 23 September 2005 - 11:05 AM.

[budgie]

PB,

Your a sick man

Budgie

[Kortoso]

[PainBrush]

hahaha

[matsellah]

And we all know [ed] the Lions - don't scare anyone! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is true!

Especially if you're a Bear.

My apologies for going OT. Some things are irresistable.