309 replies to this topic

[Strom]

I've always thought John Buscema captured the square cut mane and Conan's bull neck very well.

[PaulMc]

Ive seen many illustrations, from the new Conan series to the old Weird Tales.
Ive notices a few other of REH's characters shared this trait.
But Ive always wondered what he particularly meant and who has captured this best so far.
I'm assuming about shoulder length, which shouldn't be too far considering his "bull neck", same length all the way around except being trimmed straight across his brows.
And Im assuming he kept it this length cutting it himself maybe with a blade, of course except when he was king.
But then of course you have the original Weird Tales, where he has shorter hair on all covers Ive seen.

What ye think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think the 'Weird Tales' cover designs come more from the fact it was the 1930s than what was actually in the story. A male hero with long hair? Who would buy that?

[Kortoso]

Was it in a REH tale that Conan's hair is described as a "sweaty whip" across his face? This would imply very long hair - at least in that particular tale.

[theGrayMan]

Ive seen many illustrations, from the new Conan series to the old Weird Tales.
Ive notices a few other of REH's characters shared this trait.
But Ive always wondered what he particulauly meant and who has captuerd this best so far.
Im assuming about soulder length, which shouldnt be too far considering his "bull neck", same length all the way around except being trimmed straight across his brows.
And Im assuming he kept it this leghth cutting it himself maybe with a blade, of couse except when he was king.
But then of couse you have the original Weird Tales, where he has shorter hair on all covers Ive seen.

What ye think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you mean what Howard saw, I would think newspaper comic strips. Prince Valiant, Tarzan, Alley Oop. Maybe the Indian hair with headband of the southwestern warrior, Apache, Comanche. Quannah, or Quanah, Parker.

Actually the time doesn't work out right for some of these. Hal Foster did Tarzan, beginning in 1929, but he also started Prince Valiant in 1937, about six months after Howard died. Maybe the influence worked both ways--first Tarzan to Howard, then Conan to Foster.

What's interesting to me there is that the approval of the Valiant strip is supposed to have been a personal matter involving William Randolph Hearst himself, who also backed the Sunday newspaper magazine which came with the Hearst papers. Howard is supposed to have read this magazine, The American Weekly, which was about speculative history, speculative science, the occult, the unlikely, weird developments in the actual news, many types of pulp style serial fiction, and other scandalous and scurrilious content.

Oop seems to have been invented by a guy named V.T. Hamlin in 1933, so the earliest Conan stories are prior to Oop.

Howard was interested in Southwestern lore, which of course includes those who already held the place when the Spanish and then the Americans showed up. He was specifically interested in Quannah or Quanah Parker, the Commanche war chief who was the son of captive Texan Cynthia Ann Parker and Comanche chief Peta Nocona .

Parker was the last successful Commanche war chief, the first commanche peace chief, the only one to make the US offer a workable treaty and live up to it, and the first and maybe only Indian combatant to prevail and become rich in the following peaceful world. He is supposed to have become a Peyote Christian, which is an aspect I haven't looked into much.

When this new world of "Peace" began, he's famous for having walked across Texas, the country of his enemies, to visit the Parker family. He was unarmed, unable to speak english, and carrying a sign explaining briefly who he was and where he was headed to, and that's about all. Possibly among the bravest personal actions ever undertaken, as he didn't step off the road or blink for anyone, and also didn't brain them with a rock. Apparently he went to see 1), who he was kin to, and 2), to ask his folks what the hell was the deal with these damn white men, anyway. After a while, he went back to the reservation and began to make things move and shake. He came out on top in what he undertook, so apparently the Parkers did a good job of explaining.

The history is really a lot more complicated than this, and I'm not aware if Cynthia Ann Parker, Quanah's mother, who had been recaptured (maybe an accurate description, maybe not) in a fight in which Quanah's father was killed, was still alive when Quannah made the march.

Quanah had a long wave in his long hair, but otherwise was in sight of the standard square cut mane, especially in the most well circulated picture of him, in which the lower locks are bound in fur and can be mistaken for part of costume instead of part of the person at first glance:

http://www.sil.si.ed...64/plate32a.htm

Long hair on a white man might usually mean artist, or pianist, or European-style aristocratic fop as the basic foundation character trait, in the pulp world.

In Howard's pulp world, it usually means a villian who was taught how to handle a sword, as opposed to learning the trade the hard way (maybe something like the comparison between a trained classical guitarist and your basic demonic street corner rock and roll lead in our world) and still no pushover, either. Probably a pirate, too. Doesn't sound right for Conan. Conan stuff seems more likely to be closer to Tarzan and John Carter stuff, it seems to me.

As for cutting the square black mane, Howard seldom deals with any domestic details, generally not even mentioning them. They don't exist unless they have some real function in the story. The "how did Conan shave?" discussion usually follows this one.

[Kortoso]

There are a few tales where his hair is said to be cut square "at the nape", which refers to the back of the neck. I'm pretty sure that these are pastiches, probably LSdC.

[grim cimmerian]

I am sure I will come across the Howard descriptions in my reviews (as well as other authors) one more thing to look for as I reread.

[Kortoso]

Pictures of Quanah and Geronimo and then all seem to show their long hair parted in the middle, without bangs, which is what I think we evision as the Conan haircut.

[korak]

Here is a picture of a satire I do of Conan:


http://www.erblist.c...s/horhay-1d.jpg


See if he looks like how a satirical Conan hairdo would look!

[PainBrush]

Across the rainbow bridge of Assguarddddddddd ,.............where the giants are frosty & the men are afraid !

[Buxom Sorceress]

..As for cutting the square black mane, Howard seldom deals with any domestic details, generally not even mentioning them. They don't exist unless they have some real function in the story.
The "how did Conan shave?" discussion usually follows this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i suppose Conan + Tarzan 'had' to be clean-shaven so they stood out from the usual crowds of shaggy-bearded barbarians, + scarey-hairy big apes?
heroic looks by design?
beards are still viewed by society in general, + many employers, as a possible sign of slovenliness + a character defect?

but how did Conan really like his women? all may be revealed in the forthcoming new study..
..'Conan shaves the Princess before he gets the treasure'..?!
[ oops, my bad spelling? ]
--
well many thanks for another fascinating + informative post.
if the POTMonth gets u to post more 'gems' here, then it cant be a bad thing, eh?
keep up the good work.
i always enjoy your history, well informed speculation, + your delicious cynicism.
best wishes from me + the bearded lady ***

[korak]

buxom princess writes- i suppose Conan + Tarzan 'had' to be clean-shaven so they stood out from the usual crowds of shaggy-bearded barbarians, + scarey-hairy big apes?
heroic looks by design?
beards are still viewed by society in general, + many employers, as a possible sign of slovenliness + a character defect?


Simple explanation of why Tarzan and Conan are clean shaven?

They are both EGOMANIACS!

[kansasbarbarian]

This reminds me when Iwas little and Grandma use to give me a bowl haircut. HaHa. She finally quit after she accidently cut a small chunk out of my bros ear, man we still laugh about that 30 years later. Let me just say that an ear bleeds profusely.
I always picture Conan having a shoulder length mane just hacked squarely. I also picture Moe Howard bangs(3 Stooges). Conan always wenched and gambled his money away before he made it to Nemedian SuperCuts. Ha.

Edited by kansasbarbarian, 08 January 2006 - 03:32 PM.

[PainBrush]

Ya know I think Moe Howard would've made a good Conan ! - he had the hair , the scowl , cranky s.o.b. full of whisky-piss&vinegar , loved slapping guys upside the head & gouging eyes & pilfering things , a bit short tho............hahaha

Okay , the kind of haircut a wasteland wanderer who cuts it with a knife might have......this is from Darrel Greenes Conan , from 1979 when a lot of people wore the old Kentucky Waterfall hair , so I wanna know , does it qualify as a genuine 'mullet' if it ain't parted in the middle or feathered ?! hahaha , I mean Conan was a hillbilly after all eh ?

The painting that sketch was from that I'm gonna paint a copy of eventually for myself , really does have the most vicious & primal looking Conan I've personally ever seen portrayed , don't judge it by my quicky scribble-sketch , if you don't have Conan the Swordsman (Bantam), it's worth getting a worn copy just for that cover , dark-a55 foreboding landscape , wicked little strumpet & murderous brow-scowl eyed barbarian leaving a city in flames in the background . It's like Frazetta dropped some 'scleaners & stayed up all night watching horror movies & adventure movies till his eyes bled & then he started to paint.......or something haha . If one of you other fans with the voluminous Howard libraries has a copy of that paperback & a decent dig. camera that can take a good photo at paperback book size , 'please' do us a favor & scan that cover for digital posterity , I've looked for years & never been able to find it online , I honestly do rank that one with the best of Sanjulian or Frazettas Conans .

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 08 January 2006 - 05:19 PM.

[korak]

Do any of you recall the original Lancer paperbacks? Frazetta did not paint all of the covers. Conan the Freebooter and Conan the Wanderer were done by some other artist, I forgot his name. When Ace reprinted the series they substituted Boris for those non Frazetta covers. But I thought that that artist painted a really brutal looking Conan. He looked like a delinquent hood who would wait at the creek to whip some hippie's ass after school over some slight or chick.

[PainBrush]

John Duillo did Conan of the Isles , the old bearded Conan fighting the Snake-monster that looks like the alien from Space-Ghost . I don't remember if it was him that painted the others too , I only have the Ace versions with Frazetta & Boris covers now . You're right about that mean look of those paintings , I haven't seen those in years , I'm gonna try to find some pic's online .

[theGrayMan]

Pictures of Quanah and Geronimo and then all seem to show their long hair parted in the middle, without bangs, which is what I think we evision as the Conan haircut.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah. Though not sure Howard was insistent about it, or even clear how he meant "square cut." Seems like he used to consider words to be props, as in stage props, the only kind of stage prop he could show you in print. Made some phrases and words as important for their sound as anything else (shagreen, brazen, the various mixed armor parts and helmets he specified, breeks, sword names, whatever).

"Square Cut Mane "doesn't show up very much when you do a web search, except in Conan pages and stories. Lin Carter specified "square cut across the brow" someplace in his Thongor series, Sprague or Lin and Sprague stuck a mustache on Conan in "Conan of Aquilonia" or something, I think, very cheesy, but Howard didn't seem to personally hate the Napoli illustration from WT, which was way off the modern standard, though I think he complained. Been awhile since looking at it.

I was trying to think of some amerind haircut that had bangs on it, and was slowly, slowly, thinking, well, maybe one of the Amazon tribes. What was running unnoticed on the TV during this was an "End of the Spear" promo... very quick on the uptake, here.

Really, though, that particular style, in the Spear movie, is long hair with bangs, not a mane. What few genuine amazon do's I could find were double bowl cuts, short in front, long (or maybe actually less frequent) in back. But I can't see how it sifgnifies to the writer. What he saw as source and what was produced for illustration recently are not so closely connected, looks to me. By the time the modern illustrators decide to give the character a try, they've seen everything from everywhere, and have taken imagination to industrial proportions, and Prince Valiant plus everything like him even unto then contemporary portraits of warriors of the middle ages is standard fare for illustrators who looking for work to admire.

Movies might have had something to do with it. Howard loved 'em. Surely Howard saw Elmo Lincoln's Tarzan.

http://www.louisvill...an/lincoln3.jpg


Also had to be a horde of nights in armor on screen, Robin Hoods, and so on.

TMC runs silent movies on Sunday evenings, some true beaties that show how different and complex the times were compared to what we think. Some strong and surprising work, and a few clunkers and daring shockers too. No censorship early on in the movies.

Each time I get to see a likely early silent adventure or sword-notcher, two things follow: 1), it isn't on Burke's Howard at the movies list, and 2), I see something I'm sure Howard could have picked up a jolt from anyway. Very trying.

Prisoner of Zenda has been made a host of times, for example. Recently got to see the 1922 version, with Stone, I think, as the lead, and Novarro as the laughing evil-doer. This version had changes from Anthony Hope's story, and also had a vine-climbing, window-entering, evil dwarf professional assassin, who tries to murder the "play king" in his palace room, a situation similar to several scenes in Howard stories. While all this is happening, the guards do nothing, due to being bought off by Black Micheal, the evil brother who is the only royal who takes the crown seriously. Familiar.

In this movie, every inferior character is much shorter than the lead players, munchkin-like. I've wondered where Howard got bad dwarfs from, in By this Ax and Phoenix on the Sword. Maybe this was where. Uh, maybe not...

Another interesting coincidence is the 1931-1932 talkie with Boris Karloff, about Fu Manchu. Mask of Fu Manchu. Harder to take the old talkies, though.

It has a plot about a race to the tomb of Ghengis Khan, with an electron beam cannon at the ending that is used in to wind up the movie by wiping those bad Fu Fans right off the screen: it looks an awful lot like the science fiction ray cannon that Howard used in a reincarnation epic written using a city set in the Mongolian wilderness, which Howard uses to mount a pot boiler about the infusing of the personality of Ghengis Khan ino a Mad Yankee Scientist (a lot like a regular mad scientist except they shoot first). It's not on Burke's list either, dern it, but maybe, anyway.

At least prints of these movies still exist. No way to ever tell anything about other movies for which no print survived, which is the case for a lot of silents.

***

Well, Sorceress, good to see you. I think the poetry and creative stuff is a great idea.

***

Painbrush: yeah, mullet mania--taking care of a good Pageboy Cut could be a serious burden if you were living in the trees, or in the desert, or on a saddle just ahead of the bad hats.

There was an actor in a movie of zero distinction called Puma Man, a very Aztec looking guy (seen as he was tricked out to appear for this low budget film), who might had the highest point count of Conan key appearance items ever seen by me. He was not wide enough by a long shot, but that's the hard one. Didn't look like the character so much as touching several bases. Does look a lot like the comic illustrations, though.

The Movie was so bad it only showed up in Mystery Science Theater 3000 episode 903, so far as I know. But the Aztec/alien/shaman/superman did make a case for many points: square cut black mane, high cheek bones, sinister look, bulging muscles of a sort, carriage and moves slightly like the major felines. Blew it on blue eyes bigtime though, I think, and he didn't come out so hot in the fight scenes.

When I looked for this on IMDB years ago, there was almost no information. Now IMDB has pages about it and even a page on Miguel ?ngel Fuentes, who played the Shaman/alien. This was made twenty five years ago, and since then apparently we've seen him here and there in a lot of things, walk-ons in Deathstalker etc. Never recognized him again, though. Well, for fun:

http://imdb.com/name/nm0297450/

http://imdb.com/title/tt0081693/

http://www.agonybooth.com/pumaman/


There was not any picture anywhere on the net of the guy before. Now there's a bad one. MST3K is good compared to no coverage at all, maybe.

[Cadogan]

Simple explanation of why Tarzan and Conan are clean shaven?

They are both EGOMANIACS!     

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Korak, didn't Tarzan originally start shaving once he discovered he was a man and not an ape? Seems like I remember something like that...?

[korak]

Right, but I mean, you know... he saw pictures in the books of men with beards. It was an ego thing from the start. The whole idea of men shaving their beards period is an ego thing-- they want to look pretty like a woman, they want to be able to admire their face in a mirror. No other rational reason to shave every morning.

I shave, I admit it. It's an ego thing. There is a little bit of Narcissus in most men.

[Buxom Sorceress]

..Well, Sorceress, good to see you. I think the poetry and creative stuff is a great idea...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thanks. its great fantasy fun.
+ we have uncovered some great new poetic talents from our world-wide clan of Conan fans.

so if u have a 'wild hyborian poem' struggling to escape from your veteran Cimmerian head? then please let it run free for us all to experience?
cheers.

[ now i must get back to testing the feline reflexes of Puma Man..]

[Hotei]

Right, but I mean, you know... he saw pictures in the books of men with beards. It was an ego thing from the start. The whole idea of men shaving their beards period is an ego thing-- they want to look pretty like a woman, they want to be able to admire their face in a mirror. No other rational reason to shave every morning. 

I shave, I admit it. It's an ego thing. There is a little bit of Narcissus in most men.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I shave more because my girlfriend tells me to. I'm "more kissable" without whiskers, apparently.