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Placement of Conan Books In Chronology


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#21 korak

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 07:18 PM

Yes, I think that the only real practical purpose for the Miller/Clark outline was to serve as an expanding framework so that there would be a semblance of consistency in the growing Conan canon. As a result all the Marvel Comics and all the practiche novels are in the same basic continuity; only the two movies, in their indifferent arrogance chose to ignore that.

That is why it is too little too late to do any major revisions of Miller/Clark EVEN if that were logically feasible-- because all the vast piles of Conan material are already scored to the Miller Clark (we don't know for sure yet about Dark Horse), and there is no driving necessity to alter that for some other equally theoretical version.

#22 Pontifex

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 08:46 PM

Ok, sorry, I see what you are saying now.  :)  First, the Flame Knife and Treasure of Tranicos are listed on Galen's list, you must have overlooked them. As for the others (except for the last two, which Terry explained are compilations of non-fiction articles) are collections of short stories, and on Galen's list they are listed as individual short stories.


Here are the stories in each:


Conan - contains
Thing in the Crypt
Tower of the Elephant
Hall of the Dead
God in the Bowl
Rogues in the House
Hand of Nergal
City of Skulls



Conan of Cimmeria - contains
Curse of the Monolith
Bloodstained God
Frost Giant's Daughter
Lair of the Ice Worm
Queen of the Black Coast
Vale of Lost Women
Castle of Terror
Snout in the Dark

Conan the Freebooter - contains
Hawks over Shem
Black Colossus
Shadows in the Moonlight
Road of the Eagles
A Witch Shall Be Born

Conan the Wanderer - contains
Black Tears
Shadows in Zamboula
Devil in Iron
The Flame Knife

Conan of Aquilonia - contains
Witch of the Mists
Black Sphinx of Nebthu
Red Moon of Zembabwei
Shadows in the Skull

Conan the Adventurer - contains
People of the Black Circle
Slithering Shadow
DRums of Tombalku
Pool of the Black One

Conan the Warrior - contains
Red Nails
Jewels of Gwahlur
Beyond the Black River

Conan the Ursuper -contains
Treasure of Tranicos
Phoenix on the Sword
Scarlet Citadel

Conan the Swordsman - contains
Legions of the Dead
People of the Summit
Shadows in the Dark
Star of Korala
Gem in the Tower
Ivory Goddess
Moon of Blood

There they are, I hope this is helpful. Crom, I can't believe I just let you con me into typing all this!  :lol:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


wait, are these REH's work or does it include work by other authors?

there's so many books and compilations and whatnot thats its hard to figure out (for me anyway) whats what. i have the 3 del rey books which i thought had all of REH's Conan stories??? :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure: :unsure:

#23 korak

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 08:54 PM

pontifex writes-wait, are these REH's work or does it include work by other authors?
there's so many books and compilations and whatnot thats its hard to figure out (for me anyway) whats what. i have the 3 del rey books which i thought had all of REH's Conan stories???


Yeah, you do have, don't worry about that! :)


This is a very time consuming hobby, the study of Conan, Pontifex! I hope you are a scholarly priest type guy, because if you really want to get into this, you can spend hours upon hours with it. Hopefully you will be able to enjoy that.

Galen's list should tell you who wrote which story. The reason I gave you the individual short story titles in each book is so that you could find them on Galen's list.

Basically in the sixties and seventies, all the practiches were written by Decamp and his cohorts-- Lin Carter and Bjorn Nyberg (Lancer/Ace). In the late seventies, they added some books by Karl Edward Wagner, Andrew Offutt and Poul Anderson (Bantam books.) In the eighties, Tor books began the long series of practiches headed by Robert Jordan.

#24 terryallenuk

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Posted 21 April 2006 - 10:35 PM

You'll find _most_of the stories / authors listed here http://www.barbarian...m/chrono89.html

Off the top of my head they don't include Turtledove's Venarium or Hocking's Emerald Lotus.

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#25 AmokSy-Yin

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Posted 23 April 2006 - 07:15 PM

Call me a prude, but the only Conan books/stories that I acknowledge are the 12 Ace publications. Anything other than these are someone elses interpretation, it's not even Conan to me.
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#26 blanor

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Posted 23 April 2006 - 08:39 PM

Call me a prude, but the only Conan books/stories that I acknowledge are the 12 Ace publications. Anything other than these are someone elses interpretation, it's not even Conan to me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


If that's being a prude, then I believe that most of us on this site are SUPERprudes, sticking with the 21 original Howard Conan stories. From my notes:

LANCER/ACE published a series of twelve Conan books starting in 1966. The series contained forty-three stories and novels, including all twenty-one original Conan stories (except that the rewritten Treasure of Tranicos was included rather than the original The Black Stranger; other original stories were edited as well). Eight of the twelve volumes contained one or more of the original Howard stories.

I don't think that any good line can be drawn between Lancer/Ace pastiches and the scores that followed, and I lump them into the same category: other authors' interpretations of Conan.

#27 korak

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Posted 23 April 2006 - 10:50 PM

blanor writes-I don't think that any good line can be drawn between Lancer/Ace pastiches and the scores that followed, and I lump them into the same category: other authors' interpretations of Conan.



I do, even though I would draw the line after volume 15, Conan the Liberator. To me, the DeCamp/Carter practiches are classic, pure "silver age" supplements for Howard's "golden age" tales. Past that you get into the "iron age" and iron rusts badly. This is purely an aesthetic perception, without scientific basis. :rolleyes:

#28 AmokSy-Yin

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Posted 24 April 2006 - 02:18 AM

blanor writes-I don't think that any good line can be drawn between Lancer/Ace pastiches and the scores that followed, and I lump them into the same category: other authors' interpretations of Conan.



I do, even though I would draw the line after volume 15, Conan the Liberator. To me, the DeCamp/Carter practiches are classic, pure "silver age" supplements for Howard's "golden age" tales. Past that you get into the "iron age" and iron rusts badly. This is purely an aesthetic perception, without scientific basis.  :rolleyes:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



I agree about the DeCamp/Carter contributions. Since they appear as part of the first twelve books, to me they're part of the Conan Mythos.
"It's no more than swordplay on a larger scale. You draw his guard, then-stab, slash! And either his head is off, or yours."
- Conan, Black Colossus[QUOTE]

#29 korak

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Posted 24 April 2006 - 05:21 AM

I also like any Conan book that is adapted in the comics.. like when Roy Thomas adapted the andrew Offutt trilogy, Mercenary/Sorcerer/ Sword of Skelos. I know, that sounds kind of border line geeky. :P

#30 blanor

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Posted 24 April 2006 - 06:20 AM

Can we at least agree on a line between "original Howard Conan" and "other authors' conan"? You guys can argue where the "good other authors' Conan" vs. "bad other authors' Conan" line is without my interference. :rolleyes:

#31 korak

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Posted 24 April 2006 - 06:56 PM

Yes we can Blanor. :) No question about that much.

Edited by korak_the_killer, 24 April 2006 - 06:57 PM.


#32 Skandrannon

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 02:25 PM

Wow, amazing feedback from everyone. Thanks all. Never have I met a more well versed and educated bunch of barbarian lovers. =P

Everything's been going good, just finished trudging through Conan of Venarium and I feel like commiting suicide. Other than that, I shall now continue my religious-type fervor in reading all these novels.

Clicky clicky!

You may now all gaze in wonderment at EVERY CONAN NOVAL EVAR IN ORDER PLUS 3 ALTERNATE TIMELINES AND 2 EXTRA BOOKS!

Well, at least every Conan story. =P

Edited by Skandrannon, 26 April 2006 - 02:26 PM.


#33 deuce

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 03:09 PM

Yes, I think that the only real practical purpose for the Miller/Clark outline was to serve as an expanding framework so that there would be a semblance of consistency in the growing Conan canon. As a result all the Marvel Comics and all the practiche novels are in the same basic continuity; only the two movies, in their indifferent arrogance chose to ignore that.

That is why it is too little too late to do any major revisions of Miller/Clark EVEN if that were logically feasible-- because all the vast piles of Conan material are already scored to the Miller Clark (we don't know for sure yet about Dark Horse), and there is no driving necessity to alter that for some other equally theoretical version.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>



Yeah, Korak, but the Dark Storm chronology just works so much BETTER. I disagree with Dale Rippke on some other Hyborian matters, but his Conan chronology is SOLID. I grew up with the M/C chronology (and the Thomas comics based off of it) just like you did. Sometimes you have to tear down to rebuild better. If Tierney and Mosig hadn't done for HPL we'd still be awash in bad, not-scary Derleth Mythos stories. BTW, it sure looks like Dark Horse IS leaving M/C behind.

Support the Robert E. Howard Foundation. It helps you and Robert E. Howard's legacy.


#34 korak

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 07:36 PM

deuce writes- Yeah, Korak, but the Dark Storm chronology just works so much BETTER. I disagree with Dale Rippke on some other Hyborian matters, but his Conan chronology is SOLID. I grew up with the M/C chronology (and the Thomas comics based off of it) just like you did. Sometimes you have to tear down to rebuild better. If Tierney and Mosig hadn't done for HPL we'd still be awash in bad, not-scary Derleth Mythos stories. BTW, it sure looks like Dark Horse IS leaving M/C behind.


Still, Dark Horse comics are just practiches and always will be, optional apocrypha no different than the rest of it.

I have no idea who tierney and Mosig are, or what Derleth's practiches have to do with the chronology of HPL's canon. I like Derleth's mythos stories probably better than any others, including Campbell and Lumley. I thought they were very gloomy and moody.

The bottom line is that we don't NEED a Conan chronology at all, thus the Del Rey edition. Each to his own. If you want a strict chronology, fine, but now that we have finally escaped from the old bondage, why throw yourself right into a new bondage to Rippke and Dark Horse? All I need is REH and he never said exactly. More than you need to know.

Edited by korak_the_killer, 26 April 2006 - 07:37 PM.


#35 johnnypt

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Posted 27 April 2006 - 02:56 AM

>>The bottom line is that we don't NEED a Conan chronology at all, thus the Del Rey edition. Each to his own. If you want a strict chronology, fine, but now that we have finally escaped from the old bondage, why throw yourself right into a new bondage to Rippke and Dark Horse? All I need is REH and he never said exactly. More than you need to know.<<

I agree reading them the way Wandering Star/Del Ray has them is probably the best. You see Howard's growth as a writer very clearly in a way we've never been able to before. As a reader, there's no real need for a chronology. But then you've got goofballs like me who love putting these things in order. Strictly for Dark Horse's purposes, the way they've set about doing the series, they've got to put these stories in some kind of order. Actually, it's very helpful to read them in the order they were written to aid in thinking where they go, if they choose to depart from the original chronology from March 1936 (they will in at least one story). We're not going to know for sure for another two years or so. By that point we'll have reached Rogues in the House and the Yaralet fragment, then comes crunch time (If I were to guess, I'd say Iron Shadows is next). As Kurt said in his interview back in 2004, that's where the fun comes in. I think DH has already set its own path by doing things in the order they've done them so far.

Here's how I have it (right now, anyway)

Frost Giant
God in the Bowl
Tower
Hall
Rogues
Yaralet
Iron Shadows
Black Colossus
Queen
Snout
Xuthal
Witch
Zamboula
Devil
Black Circle
Tombalku
Vale
Pool of the Black One
Servants of Bit Yakin
Black River
Black Stranger
Red Nails
Wolves
Phoenix
Scarlet Citadel
Dragon

Mostly Dark Storm, with Zamboula back where it was and a shifted Gwahlur/Bit Yakin. I figured if the series keeps up, Hour of the Dragon can be finished by issue #300, so there's a target to shoot for!

#36 Darkstorm Dale

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Posted 04 June 2006 - 04:01 PM

This is in response to johnnypt's Conan timeline.

I realize that THE SERVANT OF BIT YAKIN states that Conan was late of the Baracha Isles, the Black Coast and many other climes where life ran wild. Unfortunately, being "late" of somewhere only indicates that you've visited there recently. Conan had two stints with the Barachans and this statement can really fit with either one. So which is it?
How can you reconcile the statement Conan made in RED NAILS that he had never been farther east in the Black Kingdoms than Xuchotl, when every Hyborian Age map shows Keshan lying to the east of Xuchotl? Either he is lying or he hasn't been to Keshan yet.
How do you reconcile Conan's claim in THE SERVANTS OF BIT YAKIN that he was in the Shemite city of Akbitania a year earlier? A placement after POOL will tend to further elongate a rather tight timeline, since it would need to take place well over a year later. If it immediately followed POOL, then you need to reconcile why Conan was in Akbitania during his stint with the Barachan/Zingaran pirates. Akbitania is around a thousand miles from the Western Sea.
A placement of THE SERVANTS OF BIT YAKIN after RED NAILS resolves these problems, since he is late of the Baracha Isles and the Black Coast (post BLACK STRANGER) as well as other climes where life ran wild (the Stygian frontier and Xuchotl). RED NAILS claims that Conan left the pirates and came ashore in Shem, where he joined Zarallo's Free Companions. Akbitania is in Shem, so it stands to reason that Conan joined Zarallo's mercenaries in that city, marched to Stygia, had his adventure in Xuchotl, and then went on to Keshan (all within a year's time). Plus it aborts the inconsistency that would arise from Conan visiting Keshan before Xuchotl.
The placement of THE SERVANTS OF BIT YAKIN after POOL OF THE BLACK ONE isn't really supportable due to the evidence in my opinion. I would be glad to see why you think so.

#37 Speelie

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Posted 05 June 2006 - 06:41 AM

Nice to see you here, Dale. Welcome! Your chronology was a revelation to me, suddenly, it all made sense. I respect that others don't agree with your view, or don't feel the need for any view, but I really enjoyed the Dark Storm Conan Chronology.

#38 Kortoso

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Posted 05 June 2006 - 03:45 PM

What a gathering of vultures this is, indeed! ;) Welcome, Dale!

#39 johnnypt

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Posted 05 June 2006 - 07:33 PM

>>I realize that THE SERVANT OF BIT YAKIN states that Conan was late of the Baracha Isles, the Black Coast and many other climes where life ran wild. Unfortunately, being "late" of somewhere only indicates that you've visited there recently. Conan had two stints with the Barachans and this statement can really fit with either one. So which is it?
How can you reconcile the statement Conan made in RED NAILS that he had never been farther east in the Black Kingdoms than Xuchotl, when every Hyborian Age map shows Keshan lying to the east of Xuchotl? Either he is lying or he hasn't been to Keshan yet.
How do you reconcile Conan's claim in THE SERVANTS OF BIT YAKIN that he was in the Shemite city of Akbitania a year earlier? A placement after POOL will tend to further elongate a rather tight timeline, since it would need to take place well over a year later. If it immediately followed POOL, then you need to reconcile why Conan was in Akbitania during his stint with the Barachan/Zingaran pirates. Akbitania is around a thousand miles from the Western Sea.
A placement of THE SERVANTS OF BIT YAKIN after RED NAILS resolves these problems, since he is late of the Baracha Isles and the Black Coast (post BLACK STRANGER) as well as other climes where life ran wild (the Stygian frontier and Xuchotl). RED NAILS claims that Conan left the pirates and came ashore in Shem, where he joined Zarallo's Free Companions. Akbitania is in Shem, so it stands to reason that Conan joined Zarallo's mercenaries in that city, marched to Stygia, had his adventure in Xuchotl, and then went on to Keshan (all within a year's time). Plus it aborts the inconsistency that would arise from Conan visiting Keshan before Xuchotl.
The placement of THE SERVANTS OF BIT YAKIN after POOL OF THE BLACK ONE isn't really supportable due to the evidence in my opinion. I would be glad to see why you think so.<<

Darn it Dale, you do it every time! I was incredulous that you'd move Black River, until you laid it out and convinced me. I'm gonna print this out and add it as a corollary to your timeline. The moving of Gwahlur was a sort of an impulse when I reread it, looking for little bits in that story to better place it and just thought it fit better earlier. There's a big hole after Pool and before Black River/Black Stranger, where around three years take place. That would be plenty of time for him to get ashore, got to Akbitania, go to Keshan, then head over to the Pctish Wilderness. And seeing it in the order it was written also made me think about it. However, with all these little bits from Red Nails (which I also reread but not as closely), the weight of the evidence is for keeping it where it is. I guess he had a shorter duration on the Red Hand compared to the Wastrel. Red Nails and Black Stranger are really the two key stories to sorting out whole later chronology aren't they? Thanks for the input, I love this kind of stuff!

Great to see you here.

#40 grim cimmerian

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Posted 05 June 2006 - 09:26 PM

This is in response to johnnypt's Conan timeline.

I realize that THE SERVANT OF BIT YAKIN states that Conan was late of the Baracha Isles, the Black Coast and many other climes where life ran wild. Unfortunately, being "late" of somewhere only indicates that you've visited there recently. Conan had two stints with the Barachans and this statement can really fit with either one. So which is it?
How can you reconcile the statement Conan made in RED NAILS that he had never been farther east in the Black Kingdoms than Xuchotl, when every Hyborian Age map shows Keshan lying to the east of Xuchotl? Either he is lying or he hasn't been to Keshan yet.
How do you reconcile Conan's claim in THE SERVANTS OF BIT YAKIN that he was in the Shemite city of Akbitania a year earlier? A placement after POOL will tend to further elongate a rather tight timeline, since it would need to take place well over a year later. If it immediately followed POOL, then you need to reconcile why Conan was in Akbitania during his stint with the Barachan/Zingaran pirates. Akbitania is around a thousand miles from the Western Sea.
A placement of THE SERVANTS OF BIT YAKIN after RED NAILS resolves these problems, since he is late of the Baracha Isles and the Black Coast (post BLACK STRANGER) as well as other climes where life ran wild (the Stygian frontier and Xuchotl). RED NAILS claims that Conan left the pirates and came ashore in Shem, where he joined Zarallo's Free Companions. Akbitania is in Shem, so it stands to reason that Conan joined Zarallo's mercenaries in that city, marched to Stygia, had his adventure in Xuchotl, and then went on to Keshan (all within a year's time). Plus it aborts the inconsistency that would arise from Conan visiting Keshan before Xuchotl.
The placement of THE SERVANTS OF BIT YAKIN after POOL OF THE BLACK ONE isn't really supportable due to the evidence in my opinion. I would be glad to see why you think so.



Welcome to the board! I very much enjoy your chronology and I think as far as a Howard pure timeline goes it has been well thought out and is very logical.
That said, I disagree with you on one placement: God in the Bowl. My reasoning is simple. Howard said in the Miller 1936 letter that
"Conan was about seventeen when he was introduced to the public in "The Tower of the Elephant." While not fully matured, he was riper than the average civilized youth at that age. ...............There was the space of about a year between Vanarium and his entrance into the thief-city of Zamora. During this time he returned to the northern territories of his tribe, and made his first journey beyond the boundaries of Cimmeria. This, strange to say, was north instead of south. Why or how, I am not certain, but he spent some months among a tribe of the Aesir, fighting with the Vanir and the Hyperboreans, and developing a hate for the latter which lasted all his life and later affected his policies as king of Aquilonia. Captured by them, he escaped southward and came into Zamora [my emphasis] in time to make his debut in print.

I am not sure that the adventure chronicled in "Rogues in the House" occurred in Zamora. The presence of opposing factions of politics would seem to indicate otherwise, since Zamora was an absolute despotism where differing political opinions were not tolerated. I am of the opinion that the city was one of the small city-states lying just west of Zamora, and into which Conan had wandered after leaving Zamora.
[my emphasis]
Shortly after this he returned for a brief period to Cimmeria, and there were other returns to his native land from time to time. ......................
Cordially,
Robert E. Howard"


I feel due to Howard's statements in this letter he left no room for speculation as to where he arrived in the Hyborian world first: In Zamora. So clearly to me Tower of the elephant should come before The God in the Bowl. He is an unrefined thief in both tales but in Bowl he is working for a patron something that seems unlikely for his first job to me. I liked the clever arguement you used about Taurus of Nemedia and all but Howard himself said he started in Zamora and moved westward for subsequent tales (like God in the bowl and Rogues in the House.) good enough for me.
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