361 replies to this topic

[Amra31]

I have to agree with DMEII i have read reh almost all my life and i never got that he was racist from his stories.

[Isaacson]

Hi.

... Cormac Wrote:

> Racist? By our modern standards, yes. Sexist? Sometimes maybe,

>Bottom line: REH was a product of his time and place. I still enjoy his stories, and the little quirks here and there remind me how different that time was.


- This is one of those discussions concerning REH that always comes up, and possibly can't be avoided.
For what it's worth, I agree with the essence of Cormac's opinion here.

For you guys who haven't already done do, it may be worth your while picking up a copy of Novalyne Price-Ellis's book "One Who Walked Alone" (the memoirs the "The Whole Wide World" movie was based on). As this can give a picture of Bob's views/attitudes on race (and maybe some reasons why he concluded this).

Good possible examples and an insight into this subject could also be found within Bob's various correspondance. So reading the pair of Necronomicon "Selected Letters" volumes might be an idea for any interested party's too?

Cheers, Danny.

[Shrews]

I would wager folks who read barbarian fiction would have a thicker skin than to be so easily offended. So he was sexist now as well?
Please.
Lighten up or read Harry Potter. This ain't Shalespeare or Grisham.
I am certainly glad that all of Howard's critics are sinless.

[Isaacson]

Hi.

... Shrews Wrote:

>I would wager folks who read barbarian fiction would have a thicker skin than to be so easily offended. So he was sexist now as well?
Please.
Lighten up or read Harry Potter. This ain't Shalespeare or Grisham.
I am certainly glad that all of Howard's critics are sinless.


- OT: Nah, didn't Bill "Shalespeare" write "The Maiming of the Shrews", LOL.

Sorry, but I just couldn't resist the urge!
All the best, Danny.

[Shrews]

I think I have heard about every variation on that one, honestly...

[Isaacson]

OT:

Hi Shrews.

... Shrews Wrote:

>I think I have heard about every variation on that one, honestly...

- Well, reminders aren't always a bad thing!

Seriously, I'm glad you took my little quip as it was intended ... humorously.

I'm done on this.
Cheers, Danny.

[Gladius]

He was a racist by our standards and he was a racist by the standards then, too. It may not have held the same derogative connotation that it holds now, but since the definition of racism rarely sways from 'a thought or belief that one race is superior to another', I don't see how being from Texas in 1930 and believing one race is superior to another makes you any less racist than being from New York (or wherever) in 2003 and believing that one race is superior to another.

Does this hurt the enjoyment of his Conan books? Not particularly, since the racism is not overly prevalent or significant enough to do so, and I don't see where anyone has said it is.

However, I don't understand comments to 'lighten up'. This IS racism, and since this thread seems to be merely pointing out the fact that REH was a racist (which he obviously was), I don't see where anyone is taking this so seriously to do so.

A couple people stated that they couldn't tell from reading Howard's stories that he was racist, and though I admit it wasn't particularly pronounced in the Conan books, I still found that fact glaringly obvious, myself. What is the harm in opening up a few people's eyes?

As far as racism goes, most people cannot actually tell they are viewing/witnessing it (and just as often can't tell they are doing it, either), and a little education, even in such a small way as this is just another step in helping alleviate the problem.

[Beastmaster]

I think one of the big issues here is that fans of REH prefer to see him unblemished as if to say the an his personal attitudes and conduct has some effect on his works. It also begs the larger question of what is of greater significance, a man's works and accomplishments or what type of a person he was apart from them. This will be a debate that will rage on forever.

For me, I am definitely feel more enlightened in knowing more about the man, but it will not detract from my enjoyment of his works.

[budgie]

Interesting topic

Its funny really.. I read Conan, original and pastiche. I as yet dont read any other REH works and I must say I know practically nothing about the man..

Why? to tell you the truth Im not that interested in knowing about the author, I want to know about his greatest creation - CONAN.. thats why I joined this forum.

Im not a big reader but I must say I viewed Stephen King in the same way, I like thier vision and thier writing style and thier character deapth.. I went off Steven King but still enjoy my Conan novels.

I dont generally read the non Conan threads on this site unless its been a slow post day.
As to someones beliefs, well REH's views on life were his owns just as someone like Alistair Crowley had his.. REH 's Conan stories are fiction. Gritty stories written in an imperfect world where racism, slavery and oppression of every type reign but at the end of the day its still fiction.. theres a real life out there thats just as dirty now but I prefer to read about the Hyborian age than todays..

'nuff said

Budgie

[Shrews]

well put, budgie.

[THOOM!]

I am an African-American, and though I find this information
somewhat interesting, for the most part I am indifferent to the aspect of REH's racial attitude, or his sexist opinions that He may have had that have been translated through his stories...whatever! He told some FREAKIN' good yarns.

Just my thoughts.

[El Borak's Li'l Brother]

Robert E. Howard lived in a bygone age as Conan lived in a bygone age. It is of li'l importance what his beliefs were in terms of minorities, etc., when reading Conan or any other of his fiction stories. I have over the years collected all the Howard books I could/can find and have read far beyond just his Conan stories. Conan, Kull, Solomon Kane et al are of a bygone era and therefore such racial and sexists attitudes that might be found therein are of that bygone era. As for those Howard stories based in his own lifetime, the same can be said. That's the way it is! And I see no reason to let that spoil modern day reading of them. People need to lighten up a li'l.

As THOOM! said: "He told some FREAKIN' good yarns."

[blacksagelobo]

I'm also a black man.

I enjoy reading Howard and Crowley.

Yes, they were both racist by today's and yesterday's standards.

There is no need to "lighten up." No one has said their joy of Howard's writings diminished because of his racism. Just acknowledging that it existed.

[Shrews]

Shrugs.
Reading Howard or Twain or Crowely doesn't bother me.

[matsellah]

REH was also a deeply disturbed individual with a thousand other faults and flaws. I'm not going to throw stones. Was he a racist? Absolutely. So let's sue him, let's make an example out of him, let's...

Oh wait... he's dead.

[TwZtdJuGGalo]

Just to put my 2 bits in. The race issue will always eventually come up if you are talking about Howard, but as been said before the first quarter of the last century seems almost a lost world to today's society. But it STILL is very much alive as it was then,just not tolerated as was the norm back then. But to revert back to the racism of the 20's and 30's and try to see that yes Howard was a racist and sexist , but not in the hate sense many may think. But as has been said so recently among pop culture and the questions of if people knew their favorites bands or artists were gay, would they still like them. I say that the person's lifestyle is irrelevant as long as you enjoy his or her's work. That's the issue with me.

[Gladius]

But to revert back to the racism of the 20's and 30's and try to see that yes Howard was a racist and sexist , but not in the hate sense many may think.

If you follow the link provided on the first page, I think it's fairly obvious that Howard's racism was indeed in quite a hateful sense.

However, I do agree, that just because Howard was a flawed man should have no bearing on how you feel about his writing. Conan is still the same awesome character, no matter what.

[Dragon Girl]

While I acknowledge that Howard's attitude towards blacks was certainly racist (based on the excerpts of his letters from that REHupa link on Page 1), it doesn't mean I can't enjoy his books. There are very few instances, in the Conan stories, that could be regarded as racism towards blacks.

A couple of examples (only ones I can think of off the top of my head):

In The Vale of Lost Women, Livia, a white girl, is kidnapped by blacks, who sacrifice her brother in a devilish ritual. Conan says, "If you were old and ugly as the devil's pet vulture, I'd take you away from Bajujh, simply because of your race."

In Pool of the Black One, the point is made rather frequently that the bad guys are black and evil. (Stretching it a bit, I know; but it fits in with the notion, prevalent at the time these stories were written, that blacks were evil.)

On the other hand, Conan does admit, in Drums of Tombalku, "Sakumbe, damn his black hide, was a friend of mine....[H]e was a better man than most of the white men I have known." Whether this was Howard's writing, or an edit by DeCamp in an attempt to make up for some of Howard's less-than-flattering racial remarks, I don't know.

At any rate, they're hardly enough to ruin my enjoyment of a good story. One could argue that the stories show women in an unflattering light, as Conan is either rescuing them, using them for sexual pleasure, or being manupulated by them. As a female who has read the books more times than I can remember, I can assure you that these portrayals of women have never bothered me in the slightest.

[THOOM!]

What do you mean by "lighten up"..?
Does voicing an (my) opinion of indifference with an with an emotional vigor suggest that the subject matter be dismissed and everyone should shut-up...?
No.
Don't read to deeply into it.

[El Borak's Li'l Brother]

What do you mean by "lighten up"..?
Does voicing an (my) opinion of indifference with an with an emotional vigor suggest that the subject matter be dismissed and everyone should shut-up...?
No.
Don't read to deeply into it.

I take it the question is to me. What I meant by "lighten up" is simply to realize that yes, Howard can be seen as a racist and sexist. Yes, he used derogatory terms toward Blacks and Mexicans in his letters. But he was a man of his time. In his time, 1900 to 1936, America was a different place. I never sad shut up to anyone. Discuss it all you want. I was simply saying to understand Howard and his feelings you must understand the times in which he lived and where he lived, Texas.

In terms of his writing, here again the times in which he lived must be taken into consideration. Further, it must be realized that his greatest works, Conan, Kull, etc., were based in a time both fictional and before recorded history. To extract lines from any of these stories and try to analyze them in terms of his racist or sexist feelings is, in my eye, silly. Why? 'Cause in the end it's just the reader's interpretation of what he/she read, and if he/she is in search of examples to prove that point *gasp* they will be found. Blacks in these stories were savages. Crom!, whites in these stories were savages cloaked in "civilization." It was a savage, barbaric time. As to his stories based in his own time, yes, derogatory terms were used toward Blacks and others, but to me if he wouldn't've had his characters use them, they stories wouldn't have rung true.

Interestingly, Howard did have positive Black and other minority characters as well as strong women characters (The real Red Sonja), though they were shrouded in racism and sexism, which was sadly a staple in literature, as well as all forms of entertainment, of his time. If Howard had wanted to write a strong, lead minority or woman character minus the shroud, I have strong doubts he would've gotten away with it. Editors wouldn't've stood for it. Sad, truly sad.

For me all that truly matters about Robert E. Howard is the incredible contribution he made in his short life span to literature, to my personal library. I have read a majority of Howard's bio and understand many things about him, plenty sad but nothing shocking in terms of his feelings about anything due to his times. Robert E. Howard was a writer, a master storyteller and that is my focus. And the idea of picking apart his stories in search of this phrase or that to prove he was racist or sexist in his writing without taking into account when they were written smacks of what led to the attempted banning of works by Mark Twain some years back.