283 replies to this topic

[Kortoso]

"Roved over" - something I had overlooked, and of course, an example of how we squeeze the most minute drops of juice from these few words.

And how could they be "mountain beasts" if Cimmeria was all hills?

[Taranaich]

There are references to Cimmerian mountains elsewhere, but it doesn't necessarily make Cimmeria into Afghanistan.

[Amra_the_Lion]

"Roved over" - something I had overlooked, and of course, an example of how we squeeze the most minute drops of juice from these few words.

And how could they be "mountain beasts" if Cimmeria was all hills?

Even though Howard used the word "hills" predominately in describing Cimmeria, he also mentions mountains.

"The ocean flowed around the mountains of western Cimmeria to form the North Sea; these mountains became the islands later known as England, Scotland and Ireland, and the waves rolled over what had been the Pictish wilderness and the Bossonian marches." - REH in The Hyborian Age

"Oh, tiger of the North, you are cold as the snowy mountains which bred you."
-Bêlit to Conan in Queen of the Black Coast

Conan recounting a dream where he saw all the paths he had followed to become a king including his birth on a battlefield and his youth killing beasts of the Cimmerian mountains.

"I saw myself in a pantherskin loin-clout, throwing my spear at the mountain beasts." - The Hour of the Dragon


The Cimmerian deity Crom lives on a mountain, presumably in Cimmeria.

Crom was their chief, and he lived on a great mountain, whence he sent forth dooms and death. - The Tower of the Elephant

Their chief is Crom. He dwells on a great mountain. - Queen of the Black Coast


To me Howard's use of "hills" is synonymous with "mountains" as in his descriptions of the Himelian mountains in The People of the Black Circle .

"But I was a war-chief of the Afghulis who live in the Himelian mountains above the borders of Vendhya.” – Red Nails

"A BARBARIAN FROM THE HILLS" - Chapter heading in The People of the Black Circle

"He was dressed like a Hillman, but his dark features and blazing blue eyes did not match his garb. Chunder Shan had never seen a man like him; he was not an Easterner, but some barbarian from the West. But his aspect was as untamed and formidable as any of the hairy tribesman who haunt the hills of Ghulistan.” – People of the Black Circle

"Danger breeds caution, and only a wary man lives long in that wild country where the hot Vendhyan plains meet the crags of the Himelians. An hour's ride westward or northward and one crossed the border and was among the hills where men lived by the law of the knife." – People of the Black Circle

She glanced at the stark outlines of the mountains all about them and shuddered. – People of the Black Circle

Far below them the mountain slopes fell away into a purple haze of distance. The sun glittered on snow-clad peaks on either hand. - People of the Black Circle

Chunder Shan describing the Black Seers of Mount Yimsha in the Himelians.

"They are black devils, haunting the uninhabited hills beyond the Zhaibar." – People of the Black Circle

In the distant east, cut off from the rest of the world by the heaving up of gigantic mountains and the forming of a chain of vast lakes, the Lemurians are toiling as slaves of their ancient masters. - REH in The Hyborian Age

Edited by Amra_the_Lion, 15 September 2011 - 07:34 PM.

[Gin-Wulf]

oh i agree that in canon now conan just left home from wonder lust , but from the PotS early draft , the way conan had to keep drinking , to get cimmeria and it gloom out of his mind, i think the original idea of why he left home may be more in-depth , even tho we will never know, and i am happy with him just deciding to adventure .
it just seems like conan was portrayed as some one who needs to forget something that is haunting him from his homeland. it does seem all that was dropped after the rewrite but it is still intriguing to me.

[Amra_the_Lion]

oh i agree that in canon now conan just left home from wonder lust , but from the PotS early draft , the way conan had to keep drinking , to get cimmeria and it gloom out of his mind, i think the original idea of why he left home may be more in-depth , even tho we will never know, and i am happy with him just deciding to adventure .
it just seems like conan was portrayed as some one who needs to forget something that is haunting him from his homeland. it does seem all that was dropped after the rewrite but it is still intriguing to me.

Indeed intriguing, perhaps like his grandfather he had a blood-feud too that alienated him from his people. If you would like the pastiche version of why he left check out John Maddox Roberts' Conan the Valorous one of the better pastiches out there. Shocking, me recommending a pastiche?! I have to go lay down.

[Gin-Wulf]

lol thank you , ill look into that story

[Kortoso]

As I recall, Amra, there are a couple of camps regarding the Cimmerian landscape: the "rolling hills, as in West Texas" people and the "hills are shorthand for mountains" people.

I see that you and I are of the second camp, but there are plenty who belong to the first camp, and we may have to agree to disagree. (Although you and I know that we're right.)

[Gin-Wulf]

Cimmeria was big, could it not have hills and mountains both with thick forests ? having a little bit of both across the landscape .

[Amra_the_Lion]

As I recall, Amra, there are a couple of camps regarding the Cimmerian landscape: the "rolling hills, as in West Texas" people and the "hills are shorthand for mountains" people.

I see that you and I are of the second camp, but there are plenty who belong to the first camp, and we may have to agree to disagree. (Although you and I know that we're right.)

Indeed. Whoa! First a pastiche referral and now an emoticon. I think I am coming down with something.

Cimmeria was big, could it not have hills and mountains both with thick forests ? having a little bit of both across the landscape .

Yep, I think so and deuce from The Cimmerian agrees.

That's about how I see it. In no way am I saying that there weren't mountains in Cimmeria; just that hills predominated and most of the mountains were located in the n-w corner, where Conan was born.

[grim cimmerian]

As I recall, Amra, there are a couple of camps regarding the Cimmerian landscape: the "rolling hills, as in West Texas" people and the "hills are shorthand for mountains" people.

I see that you and I are of the second camp, but there are plenty who belong to the first camp, and we may have to agree to disagree. (Although you and I know that we're right.)

I work in the hill country of Texas every so often and I could scarcely see what they were talking about. There are no proper hills anywhere and certainly no mountains only a few bluffs and valleys kinda like a wrinkled blanket. I was glad of it though driving across Texas is monotonous to say the very least. I think Howard definitely had loftier hills or mountains in mind when he wrote about Cimmeria than Texas. Of course the second camp is right.

Edited by grim cimmerian, 16 September 2011 - 04:01 AM.

[Ironhand]

"Roved over" - something I had overlooked, and of course, an example of how we squeeze the most minute drops of juice from these few words.

And how could they be "mountain beasts" if Cimmeria was all hills?

I think Cimmeria had both hills and mountains. In one story REH referred to Conan as a "mountain man", in another he called him a "hillman".

[Amra_the_Lion]

"Roved over" - something I had overlooked, and of course, an example of how we squeeze the most minute drops of juice from these few words.

And how could they be "mountain beasts" if Cimmeria was all hills?

I think Cimmeria had both hills and mountains. In one story REH referred to Conan as a "mountain man", in another he called him a "hillman".

I have heard that said many a time, but am unable to find a reference. Can you provide one? And again I agree Cimmeria has both.

[Kortoso]

As I recall, Amra, there are a couple of camps regarding the Cimmerian landscape: the "rolling hills, as in West Texas" people and the "hills are shorthand for mountains" people.

I see that you and I are of the second camp, but there are plenty who belong to the first camp, and we may have to agree to disagree. (Although you and I know that we're right.)

I work in the hill country of Texas every so often and I could scarcely see what they were talking about. There are no proper hills anywhere and certainly no mountains only a few bluffs and valleys kinda like a wrinkled blanket. I was glad of it though driving across Texas is monotonous to say the very least. I think Howard definitely had loftier hills or mountains in mind when he wrote about Cimmeria than Texas. Of course the second camp is right.

Any cliffs worth climbing?

"Did you ever see a Cimmerian scale a sheer cliff?" asked Demetrio impatiently.

[Gin-Wulf]

in the jewels of Gwahlur at the beginning it calls conan some one from the race of hillman who is at home climbing the crags .

[Gin-Wulf]

the quote i was looking for on the last page is from hour of the dragon, were conan is thrown into prison still in chains and he won't move because of the noise it makes and he not wanna give him self away in the vulnerable state he was in, he makes mention of laying in his hiding spot in his youth letting the wild beast wonder around him or some thing to that effect .
i only have the audio books so i can't pullout and exact word for word quote , sorry.

[Kortoso]

in the jewels of Gwahlur at the beginning it calls conan some one from the race of hillman who is at home climbing the crags .

So, do gently rolling hills have any crags worth mentioning?

[deuce]

in the jewels of Gwahlur at the beginning it calls conan some one from the race of hillman who is at home climbing the crags .

So, do gently rolling hills have any crags worth mentioning?

So, does someone living in Houston have much (other than an overweening pride in being Texan) in common with someone who lives in the vicinity of the Caprock?

I've always said that Conan's n-w corner of Cimmeria was analogous to the highest of Scottish Highlands, if not a bit higher. However, any claims that Conan was some sort of "proto-Sherpa" are just ludicrous and not backed up by REH. The one, single solitary REH character converted from Conan was Terence Vulmea and that bad-a$$ hailed from the hills of Galway/Connacht.

Texas has few "crags". Period. However, as I've pointed out before, REH visited s-w Missouri as a teenager. PLENTY of steep wooded hills/mountains there (full of Scots-Irish). FAR more than Fredericksburg, TX (full of sullen, xenophobic Germans). Howard claimed he was almost lynched there for being an IRS man.

[Lunatic]

Hyborian legend...said:
IMO, the Persians (in all of their varied personifications) are one of the most dynamic ethnic groups in the history of mankind (the historical Cimmerians were their close cousins).

Interesting stuff. But I was wondering, if the Picts and Cimmerians trace ancestry from Atlantis, are they still Hyborian (proto-indoeuropeans) then? Also, what trace of ancient Cimmerian(the historical iranian people) can you find in the Conan character. Because I have played with the idea that Cimmerians to be some kind of celt/native american mix, related to their pict enemies. But your explanation about the frontier theme in REH´s writing explains it to me.

I found out on wiki that the cimmierians migrated, some to the west and occupied a small part of the austrian alps for some time. There they produced some of the first quality steel objects known in history. In the 1930´s there was a theory that this culture spawned the celtic la Tené people in the iron age. So that would be the connection between the Cimmerians and the Scots. And also a reference to the "riddle of steel" thing.

But still, what about the picts? Are they Irish or Iroquis? I get confused easily.

[RobP]

Here's a map of Cimmeria:
http://www.flickr.co...kawpa/54649553/

OK, I lied. It's really a map of Doggerland, and a very good one to boot. Shows the rivers and everything. If Cimmeria were real it would probably look very like this.

Interesting link and an evocative description. Interesting that the Rhine and Thames were tributaries of one river and that so much land disappeared under the sea. Dogger Bank is still mentioned on the shipping forecasts, I never knew it was an island at one time

Edited by RobP, 09 December 2011 - 11:16 AM.

[thatericn]

The varied impressions of Howard's Cimmeria make me think of the hodgepodge of geography in Central California, just moved northward a bit.

A lot of not-so-gently rolling hills, some with (partially) exposed rock cliff sides. Lots of deep valleys, that if not covered in vegetation would likely be called canyons. Numerous small rivers - the jumbled landscape not allowing waterways to easily merge. Gnarled evergreens aplenty, with generous amounts of undergrowth and brush. BUT among the challenging obstacles, just enough excellent potential farmland for Hyborians and Nordheimers to covet.

No great ranges of hills, no vast valleys. Instead, a big jumble of "hill and dale," lending itself to decentralization and plenty of complete wilderness for big, scary, intimidating "Ice Age" mammals to lurk and at times threaten.

Regarding Cimmerian material culture, Howard (to my reading, and memory) seems to often place them as a midway point between the savage, still neolithic Picts, and medieval-ish Hyboria cultures. I would guess most of their domestic metalwork is bronze, with a few honored ironworkers carefully protected by their clans - again, as a mid-point. Otherwise, a pastural economy - cattle for meat, cheese, hides; a scattering of sheep for wool and mutton; farming in the small corners of flat land - all supplemented with hunting (mainly deer, I'd guess) and gathering (berries and wild vegetables).

That's my take.