189 replies to this topic

[Mikey_C]

I have to take the great weight placed on autism with a grain of salt since I went to the same school as B. F. Skinner. Despite tremendous efforts on the part of Skinner's critics to vilify and debunk him, he success rate in curing severe autistic children, sometimes in a single day, is unmatched. Like Freud, Skinner described his future critics and their reactions to his practices in unflattering detail. In short, I was taught to believe that autism might be a genetic predisposition rather than a certainty. I have also had my suspicions that at least some autism might be from just different "wiring" rather than inferior capacities.

I teach people with autism / Aspergers at work and I don't think there is any "cure" as such, although there are some dietary adjustments that are supposed to help. There are a lot of myths and misunderstandings about the subject and also some interesting theories (like the "extreme male brain"). Of course, autism is a spectrum and many of us "typically neurologically developed" types can share the characteristics. I can certainly sympathise with the dislike AS people have for vacuous small talk and used to have "special interests" when younger (including a serious Tolkien obsession!). Your "different wiring" metaphor is spot on, there are some highly intelligent people on the spectrum (including, it seems likely, Einstein).

Sorry if that was a bit OT.

[Kortoso]

I also suspect that the interactions between Neanderthals and humans over tens of thousands of years were not usually predatory. Only finding a male link to their genetic contributions does present a few other distasteful options such as prostitution, slavery (both directions but primarily humans being slaves), and even being kept as food. A lot can happen in 30,000 years.

Distasteful or not, it would make great fiction!

I've had a few friends on the AS spectrum (and a touch of that myself, as well). I personally have a difficult time seeing an ape-man as an Autie or even Aspie! There's probably something behind the evolution of Autism that we haven't uncovered yet.

[Landsknecht]

Women being repulsed by male body hair is an extremely recent thing. Remember medallion man and his chest wig?
It might all be as simple as " I don't fancy yours much!"

I do not quite recall this and I am not sure that I want to know about anyone wearing a chest wig. There is an old saying in Alaska about "Don't trust anyone without chest hair." (The misogyny is probably not overlooked either.)

What do you make of the claim that Neanderthals were a matriarchal society? That rings true to me, the ancient Europeans worshiped the Mother Goddess, but the cult of the sky god came from the east, (presumably from a fiercely patriarchal society) and females have been repressed in society ever since. ( I mean repressed by religious convention, I'm not having a dig at men, I don't want to kick that one off!)

We have very little evidence to base any assumptions about 700,000 years of Neanderthal culture. Is that a religious icon or just smut? I just do not want to prejudice myself before more information comes to light. 700,000 years - that is a long time to wrap my head around and we have too little recorded history to use as a basis for what all might have happened in that time. Two thousands years of rapid technological improvements culminating in a mass migration to another planet could be easy to miss. It does leave a lot of material for (semi-)fiction though.

Kortoso & Mikey_C - I am not totally sure that what we call autism (and the likes) would have been maladaptive in a hunting society surrounded by mega-fauna. One theory is that we have to forget things (like pain) in order to keep enough free "RAM" in our brains to deal with modern life and that autism is partially the inability to forget enough. In a very small area relying on hunting and trapping while dealing with mega-predators who knows.

Cloning a Neanderthal would answer a lot of questions about at least instinctive behavior besides giving us huge insight into what traits were inherited from Neanderthals.

[Ironhand]

Primates live in bands or troops. Even prelinguistic primates must have communication skills in order to interact properly with its companions. It has to be able to read its companions' body language, gestures, and facial expressions. An autistic primate would probably grow up to be an outcast. Just possibly, it might learn enough survival skills from its mother to survive on its own. If it is a male, he forfeits any possibility of becoming an alpha male, and will not reproduce. If it is a female, hormonal imperatives may compel her to submit to a male's sexual advances, but will she be able to rear a child (which includes teaching it survival skills) without the help of a band?

[Kortoso]

Kortoso & Mikey_C - I am not totally sure that what we call autism (and the likes) would have been maladaptive in a hunting society surrounded by mega-fauna. One theory is that we have to forget things (like pain) in order to keep enough free "RAM" in our brains to deal with modern life and that autism is partially the inability to forget enough. In a very small area relying on hunting and trapping while dealing with mega-predators who knows.

It might be an artifact from mating between closely related sub-species.

[Mikey_C]

Is anyone familiar with the work of Stan Gooch? His views were not exactly mainstream and the poor old chap finished his days last year in embittered obscurity in a trailer park. However, he does seem to have been vindicated just before he died in his view that Neanderthals interbred with Cro-Magnons.

Gooch believed Neanderthal culture to be "a moon-goddess-worshipping, matriarchal, food-gathering society, where women governed all matters". Some of his writings on this seem to be almost deliberately provocative and there was a late piece by him posthumously published in Fortean Times which linked homosexuality, paedophilia and left-wing politics as surviving Neanderthal traits(!) Still, his speculations about the role of Neanderthals in human evolution aren't entirely without merit and are worthy of further investigation.

As we have seen, Gooch thought that Neanderthal society was women-led and he also believed they “obtained their knowledge not logically and scientifically but intuitively." This really goes against the autism theory we have been discussing, as the autistic mind shows extreme male characteristics and autistic people are lacking in the area of intuition.

I believe an "Aspergers society" would be viable. There's a few pointers as to how it might look in this piece. The possible causes and cures of AS are well-summarised here. It appears that autism is on the increase, probably due to environmental issues.

[Morrigan]

Mikey C That's interesting, I recognise a lot of my own traits in that aspgirls article. I did one of those online quizzes once entitled "how male/female is your brain?" I got a score of 79% male. A nurse once told me I have a high pain threshold.
I did the autism spectrum quiz thing and got a result of normal!
Maybe I have more Neanderthal genes than I originally thought?

Landsknecht Medallion man was a very funny TV ad in the UK in the early 80's. He was a charicature of the disco scene.

One thing is for sure, we don't know the whole story yet. A new discovery has shed doubt on the "out of africa" theory for the evolution of Homo Erectus.

http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2011/06/new-finds-push-back-homo-appearance-in.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheArchaeologyNewsNetwork+%28The+Archaeology+News+Network%29

[Morrigan]

Here's a bit more of the Zana story, written by one of the guys who went back to the village in the 70s to try and find and excavate her grave.

http://www.bigfooten...tures/zana2.htm

[Landsknecht]

Here's a bit more of the Zana story, written by one of the guys who went back to the village in the 70s to try and find and excavate her grave.

http://www.bigfooten...tures/zana2.htm

Another good find and interesting read. Thank you.

The thing that always impeded my belief in big feet and kin was that I live in a area where a viable population could actually hide from humans. We have about 60,000 humans living in an area roughly the size of Florida, covered in dense rain forests, unmapped caves, rich seasonal foods, and over 800 islands. This is not counting a couple times this amount of land over the Canadian border (which big feet might not even be aware of of if they don't own a map ) I flew my plane up the coast of British Columbia and Vancouver last spring - WOW there is a lot of beautiful and basically uninhabited land. Despite all of this, and reported big feet spottings to the north and south, I HAVE NEVER HEARD EVEN ONE VAGUE RUMOR OF SOMEONE HERE SEEING A BIG FOOT. There is one old story about one person claiming to see a scaled "creature from the black lagoon" type thing tearing up the protective screens around a salmon hatchery (just like a bear) but this was a single unrepeated claim that serves to show that people are watching enough to have eventually stumbled upon a big foot if they were here.

Now if we go with "theory B" that big feet and kin are just a very rare combination of very recessive grandcesteral genes that can pop up then big feet make more sense being found just next to larger populations like they are.

[Morrigan]

The only U.S. state with no recorded bigfoot sightings is, unsurprisingly, Hawaii.

Here's a link to a website with U.S. and Canadian sightings referenced by state/province.

http://www.bfro.net/gdb/

A few years ago, Chris Packham, a U.K. wildlife expert did a special programme on bigfoot. He concluded that it didn't exist simply because there wasn't enough food in the northern forests to support a huge apelike creature. However, I don't think he considered the possibility that bigfoot may be a carnivore.
If bigfoot is a nocturnal, naturally people-shy carnivore, then there is ample space and resources for a sizable population in the U.S. and Canada. Bigfoot could be a close human relative rather than an ape, then he'd be intelligent enough to avoid us most of the time.
Maybe one day another Zana will turn up somewhere.

Edited by Morrigan, 15 June 2011 - 10:08 AM.

[Kortoso]

The only U.S. state with no recorded bigfoot sightings is, unsurprisingly, Hawaii.

Yes, even wild and wooly Rhode Island, with its vast tracts of unexplored wikderness!!!

[Landsknecht]

The only U.S. state with no recorded bigfoot sightings is, unsurprisingly, Hawaii.

Yes, even wild and wooly Rhode Island, with its vast tracts of unexplored wilderness!!!

If I am reading these "reports" correctly all three SE Alaskan big foot sightings were actually on Prince of Wales Island (not the Ketchikan mainland as shown) which agrees with the lack of local stories that I have not heard. It might have nothing to do with anything but POW Island's claim to fame is being the only place in Alaska with no brown/grizzly bears just a lot of unusually large (record book large) black bears. Coincidentally most of the Alaska sighting are near built up areas where large black bears often thrive. I have to disagree with the statement that there is not enough food in the NW woods to support big feet.

I have not found any big foot sightings from the air(?) which seems very odd since we tend to fly low here, this is how we survey most of the country, and we are often looking for big game animals.

How about a funny, recent story to try and bring this thread back to Neanderthals. We recently had a young SCA couple drop in for a day off one of the many giant cruise ships that dock in town. We were happy to help show them around and get them off the tourist trap line. Since it was a work day we tag teamed them between a few folks and they wanted to hike one of the old mine trails on Douglas Island. One of our local folks, Ezra, was available to hike with them. Ezra hates shoes and since most of the snow was gone already he promptly took off his sandals for the five-ish mile trail leaving size 13 barefoot prints through the snow and mud. Worse yet, the reason he hates shoes is that his feet are so wide that he looks like he has thumbs for big toes. Our guests took another story back home but no one reported any big foot tracks. It makes you wonder just what all could be hiding in the woods that humans do not look around enough to notice. (Ezra looks like a Geico caveman too.)

[Morrigan]

Bigfoot could be a neanderthal or neanderthal descendant. Until we catch one we won't know.
What we do know currently is that there are thirty odd hominids in the human family, some of them may be the basis of the wild man legends from around the globe, and some may still survive today. Admittedly it's a stretch to think that neanderthals are still around, but stranger things have happened.

[Kortoso]

Yes, we have a Bigfoot discussion already.

Interesting question, however.

[Mikey_C]

Some bizarre debate from The Guardian: Should we clone Neanderthals?

[Landsknecht]

Some bizarre debate from The Guardian: Should we clone Neanderthals?

The argument is not quite as simple as this article makes it out. We really do not know what a Neanderthal was until we clone one. Since we seem to share some DNA it would not be completely alone. Even if it cannot speak there could be tremendous medical benefits to being able to study a living Neanderthal. We are assuming that in 700,000 years all Neanderthals were the same. Would it be more appropriate to clone a few and allow them to establish their own colony?

[Morrigan]

It would be cruel beyond words to just clone one, you'd have to have a bunch of them. How you could raise them without imprinting our culture on them is a different matter entirely, and, as we're dealing with a species as intelligent as ourselves, that aspect is a moral minefield in itself.

The medical possibilities might just outweigh any objections though.

Should we clone a Neanderthal? The curious side of my nature says yes, unfortunately the emotional side of me says no.

You only have to look at recent history, when aboriginal kids were taken away and raised with white families. Look at the mess that caused, and they still had their culture intact. A cloned Neanderthal would have no history, no culture, no continuity and nowhere to go.

There are allegedly still some "wild men" in various far flung corners of the world, let's investigate them first.

[Kortoso]

Would they be humans? Would we have to treat them with the dignity afforded to a human, or could you euthanize them as we do with apes?

[Konorg]

The only U.S. state with no recorded bigfoot sightings is, unsurprisingly, Hawaii.

Yes, even wild and wooly Rhode Island, with its vast tracts of unexplored wikderness!!!

theres still unexplored wilderness there?I know where to move to now.

[Konorg]

The blond/blue eye theory is almost the opposite of Them+Us. Wouldn't that make a Nazi roll in his grave.

Yes, it's a real kick in the teeth for the white supremacists! It's arguable that black Africans are the most genetically advanced group of Homo Sapiens on the planet, Asians also interbred with an earlier species, the Denisovans, while Africans have more genetic diversity than any other group.
Hitler got it wrong on so many levels, obviously didn't think too hard about European prehistory...

I also suspect that the interactions between Neanderthals and humans over tens of thousands of years were not usually predatory. Only finding a male link to their genetic contributions does present a few other distasteful options such as prostitution, slavery (both directions but primarily humans being slaves), and even being kept as food. A lot can happen in 30,000 years.

It might just be down to sexual dimorphism, The human female tends to be much smaller than the male, and a lot less hairy, with prominent breasts and a pronounced waist. Neanderthal women may well have had much smaller breasts and no real waist to speak of because of their stockier build. I suspect that they may have sported a fair amount of facial hair as well. Not a beard, but probably some hair on the cheeks and maybe the neck. (Think Helena Bonham Carter in Planet of the Apes).
On the other hand, Neanderthal men would have probably looked like a hairier, stronger version of their human counterpart. Women being repulsed by male body hair is an extremely recent thing. Remember medallion man and his chest wig?
It might all be as simple as " I don't fancy yours much!"

Europeans also have a higher hair density than Asians or Africans, which suggests that we have a hairy ancestor, blondes have the highest hair density of all, while redheads, paradoxically, have the lowest. I'm leaning more and more towards Howard's (blonde?) snow apes the more I think about this...

The Alma Vana's story is interesting, I think you may be right about recessive genes in a small population, but there's an outside chance that other factors could be at play. Until an Alma is discovered by modern science, we won't know the answer to that one.

As for the autism thing, I agree, it's hard to envision a functioning society in a population where autism is the norm, maybe there was a higher incidence of it among Neanderthals and it got passed down to us?

What do you make of the claim that Neanderthals were a matriarchal society? That rings true to me, the ancient Europeans worshiped the Mother Goddess, but the cult of the sky god came from the east, (presumably from a fiercely patriarchal society) and females have been repressed in society ever since. ( I mean repressed by religious convention, I'm not having a dig at men, I don't want to kick that one off!)

My dear you talk like Neanderthal's where not human.I believe they where just another branch of humanity.

http://www.icr.org/article/468/

http://www.creationtips.com/neanderthal.html

http://www.livescience.com/7153-scientist-humans-strange-neanderthals-normal.html