189 replies to this topic

[Ant]

... http://www.neanderthal-modern.com/ ...

"Firefox can't find the server at www.neanderthal-modern.com."

Is that URL correct, Ironhand?

Cheers,
Ant

[Ironhand]

I'm afraid that site is defunct. I recently tried, and failed, to access it. You could try this site
http://www.anth.ucon...ler/AdlerCV.htm
which has no content, but has more reference links than any sane person would want to follow.

[Ironhand]

Washington University in St. Louis News & Information > WUSTL in the News >

WUSTL in the News Spotlight

(Excerpted from The New York Times, Thursday, Sept. 14, 2006)

Researchers Offer a New Date for Neanderthals? Last Stand

An international team of scientists thinks it has solved the ultimate mystery of the Neanderthals: where and when they made their last stand before extinction. It was at Gibraltar 28,000 years ago, the scientists say, about 2,000 years more recently than previously thought.

The archaeologists and paleontologists reported yesterday finding several hundred stone tools in Gorham's Cave, on the rugged Mediterranean coast near the Rock of Gibraltar. They were made in the Mousterian stoneworking style, usually associated with Neanderthals. So far, no fossil bones of the cave occupants have been uncovered.

The researchers said, however, that the tools established the survival of a population of Neanderthals, a people closely related to human ancestors, in the southernmost point of Western Europe long after they disappeared elsewhere.

These were, they concluded, the last Neanderthals "currently recorded anywhere."

The scientists, led by Clive Finlayson of the Gibraltar Museum, announced the discovery at a news conference at the museum. Their report was simultaneously published on the Web site of the journal Nature, www.nature.com. It will appear in the journal at a later date.

In an accompanying commentary in Nature, two paleontologists not involved in the research, Eric Delson and Katerina Harvati, agreed that the date of 28,000 years ago was "later than any other well-documented supposed Neanderthal occurrence."

They added a note of caution, however, saying that while Gorham's Cave "might well pinpoint the newly extended end of a long lineage" of Neanderthals in Europe, only "time will tell" if the findings are correct.

Dr. Delson is a paleontologist at Lehman College of the City University of New York and the American Museum of Natural History. Dr. Harvati, an evolutionary scientist, is a specialist in Neanderthal research at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany.

Dr. Delson said in an interview that the dates for the artifacts "appeared to be solid" and that southern Iberia "was indeed a region where Neanderthals survived long after modern humans were dominant elsewhere in Europe."

Recently revised dating shows that anatomically modern Homo sapiens migrated to Europe from Africa by 35,000 years ago and over time they displaced Neanderthals, who had lived on the continent for about 200,000 years.

Erik Trinkaus, a Neanderthal specialist at Washington University in St. Louis who was not a member of the discovery team, expressed reservations about the accuracy of the date of 28,000 years ago, noting that it was based on analysis of tiny pieces of charcoal, which often move from one layer to another in sediments.

Appeared in:
Click headline below to view news story as originally posted on an external Web site.
? Researchers Offer a New Date for Neanderthals? Last Stand
The New York Times, Thursday, Sept. 14, 2006
Byline: John Noble Wilford

[Ironhand]

Modern Humans, not Neandertals, may be evolution's "odd man out"

By Neil Schoenherr

Could it be that in the great evolutionary "family tree," it is we Modern Humans, not the brow-ridged, large-nosed Neandertals, who are the odd uncle out?
New research published in the August, 2006 journal Current Anthropology by Neandertal and early modern human expert, Erik Trinkaus, Ph.D., professor of anthropology at Washington University in St. Louis, suggests that rather than the standard straight line from chimps to early humans to us with Neandertals off on a side graph, it's equally valid, perhaps more valid based on the fossil record, that the line should extend from the common ancestor to the Neandertals, and Modern Humans should be the branch off that.

Trinkaus has spent years examining the fossil record and began to realize that maybe researchers have been looking at our ancient ancestors the wrong way.

Trinkaus identified fossil traits which seemed to be genetic markers - those not greatly influenced by environment, life ways and wear and tear. He was careful to examine traits that appear to be largely independent of each other to avoid redundancy.

"I wanted to see to what extent Neandertals are derived, that is distinct, from the ancestral form. I also wanted to see the extent to which modern humans are derived relative to the ancestral form," Trinkaus says. "What I came up with is that modern humans have about twice as many uniquely derived traits than do the Neandertals.

"In the broader sweep of human evolution," says Trinkaus, "the more unusual group is not Neandertals, whom we tend to look at as strange, weird and unusual, but it's us - Modern Humans."

The most unusual characteristics throughout human anatomy occur in Modern Humans, argues Trinkaus. "If we want to better understand human evolution, we should be asking why Modern Humans are so unusual, not why the Neandertals are divergent. Modern Humans, for example, are the only people who lack brow ridges. We are the only ones who have seriously shortened faces. We are the only ones with very reduced internal nasal cavities. We also have a number of detailed features of the limb skeleton that are unique."

Trinkaus admits that every paleontologist will define the traits a little differently. "If you really wanted to, you could make the case that Neandertals look stranger than we do. But if you are reasonably honest about it, I think it would be extraordinarily difficult to make Neandertals more derived than Modern Humans."

[Kortoso]

Interesting stuff, Ironhand, keep it coming!

[budgie]

agreed, informative as always..

DId you catch the latest news about the find in Ethiopia, a small child with an almost complete skeleton was found. apparently the skeleton is even older than the "Lucy" find.. theyre calling it "lucys daughter" 0r something..

Due to the completement of the skeleton its provide (or woiill provide rather) a more detailed insight of the growth patterns of early man (austropithicus -sp!)
One of our dailys here in the UK had a centrespead of it recently.. I havnt had a chance to do a net search yet.

Budgie

[Sturmrabe]

the standard straight line from chimps to early humans to us with Neandertals off on a side graph,

There is no straight line from Chimps to humans, Chimps and Humans may have had a common ancestor, but it was NOT:

x ---- Chimps ----- y----- z------ Humans

[grim cimmerian]

the standard straight line from chimps to early humans to us with Neandertals off on a side graph,

There is no straight line from Chimps to humans, Chimps and Humans may have had a common ancestor, but it was NOT:

x ---- Chimps ----- y----- z------ Humans

right, I read that and went "this guy is an anthropologist?? Perhaps he was speaking loosely and should have had chimps in quotes or something. The evolution to genus Homo is far from a straight line with many non extant offshoots.

On a pseudoscientific vibe:
The russian peoples of the olga region have long believed in the existence of Almas living in the the nearby mountains, described as hairier, having a think brow, longer forelimbs, and longer teeth. A captured boy was examined by the local doctor and pronounced as not quite human, being able to lift the doctor in his chair with his teeth clamped down on the back of it. trouble is the locals say they are getting bred out because russian men frequently have relations with the few remaining alma women when they are found and the men and boys are killed when caught.

Perhaps there were remnant populations of H. neanderthalis that survived in eastern Europe that were interbred with Homo sapiens sapiens until quite recently perhaps not as recent as the russians would suggest but who knows...

Edited by grim cimmerian, 22 September 2006 - 11:42 PM.

[Sturmrabe]

Right, it there is a lot or room for an axiom I like to live by:

"The truth is always stranger than fiction"

I mean look at the universality of Bigfoot type tales...

right, I read that and went "this guy is an anthropologist?? Perhaps he was speaking loosely and should have had chimps in quotes or something. The evolution to genus Homo is far from a straight line with many non extant offshoots.

Though not an Atheist myself, I cannot how many times I've seen them, and myself, try to explain to fundamentalists the basics of evolution, lol

Edited by Sturmrabe, 23 September 2006 - 05:04 AM.

[Kortoso]

right, I read that and went "this guy is an anthropologist?? Perhaps he was speaking loosely and should have had chimps in quotes or something. The evolution to genus Homo is far from a straight line with many non extant offshoots.

Probably a journalist, but a science specialist most likely, who should know better.

Findings of fossils such as a handful of teeth from Gigantopithecus suggest that the "fossil record" is the tip of the iceberg as far as pre-historic humanoids. So as far as we're concerned, anything's possible.

[PainBrush]

the standard straight line from chimps to early humans to us with Neandertals off on a side graph,

There is no straight line from Chimps to humans, Chimps and Humans may have had a common ancestor, but it was NOT:

x ---- Chimps ----- y----- z------ Humans

right, I read that and went "this guy is an anthropologist?? Perhaps he was speaking loosely and should have had chimps in quotes or something. The evolution to genus Homo is far from a straight line with many non extant offshoots.

On a pseudoscientific vibe:
The russian peoples of the olga region have long believed in the existence of Almas living in the the nearby mountains, described as hairier, having a think brow, longer forelimbs, and longer teeth. A captured boy was examined by the local doctor and pronounced as not quite human, being able to lift the doctor in his chair with his teeth clamped down on the back of it. trouble is the locals say they are getting bred out because russian men frequently have relations with the few remaining alma women when they are found and the men and boys are killed when caught.

Perhaps there were remnant populations of H. neanderthalis that survived in eastern Europe that were interbred with Homo sapiens sapiens until quite recently perhaps not as recent as the russians would suggest but who knows...

Do you have any links for that - the Alma stuff ? I'm fascinated , maybe obsessed with stuff like all the above . I'm definitely not an atheist - but I'm just as far removed from fundamentalists of any kind . I know god created all the animals 'after their kind' & God created man - however the hell he accomplished it - I don't suppose I'll ever get to know in my lifetime - or if ' our kind ' is the same as apes & neanderthals , cro-mags etc. & I'm very wary of anyone who does profess to know - scientists OR religious fanatics . The day they stop trying to 'dis-prove' each other & start to 'prove' each other will be a giant step for all us talking monkeys !!

A little thing that weirds me out here - there are cases of 'very' humanoid looking Bonobos - there's even famous footage from decades ago of the 'ape-man' so&so . We do share 98 to 99 % of the same exact d.n.a. sequences as chimpanzees & orangutans . In fact chimps are more closely related to humans than they are to gorillas or orangutans !!! - Here's the weird stuff - I own a wolf-dog hybrid . Wolves & dogs are known to have been descended from a definite common ancestor - man interfered & domesticated the 'wild' out of dogs & set them down a different evolutionary path , BUT - they still have the same exact proportions of d.n.a. ( 98 -99%) - as people do to chimps ! - This question should be getting obvious here - at 99% d.n.a. dogs & wolves can still interbreed & have viable offspring , like horses & donkeys , tho I have to admit I don't know if the resulting hybrids are like typical 'mule' offspring of any sort & are sterile , or if not do they have genetic defects that come to the fore-front further down the line ( I need to look that up ) . So which of you barbarians wants to make world history as the pioneering researcher who dares to do a million-year-old forgotten experiment & take a chimp-babe out on a date to see what pops up ???? - We can name the kid ' Homo -THAK-iensis ' !!!!

- hahaha , l.o.l. - I just re-read that for typos , & it occured to me - thank God I went to art-school , could you imagine if instead I had studied science & they ever let me anywhere near a laboratory ?!?! haha , I shudder to think...............

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 24 September 2006 - 05:26 AM.

[Kane]

One good general site on Almas is here. At the bottom are a couple of links to other sites

[Ironhand]

A little thing that weirds me out here - there are cases of 'very' humanoid looking Bonobos - there's even famous footage from decades ago of the 'ape-man' so&so . We do share 98 to 99 % of the same exact d.n.a. sequences as chimpanzees & orangutans . In fact chimps are more closely related to humans than they are to gorillas or orangutans !!! - Here's the weird stuff - I own a wolf-dog hybrid . Wolves & dogs are known to have been descended from a definite common ancestor - man interfered & domesticated the 'wild' out of dogs & set them down a different evolutionary path , BUT - they still have the same exact proportions of d.n.a. ( 98 -99%) - as people do to chimps ! - This question should be getting obvious here - at 99% d.n.a. dogs & wolves can still interbreed & have viable offspring , like horses & donkeys , tho I have to admit I don't know if the resulting hybrids are like typical 'mule' offspring of any sort & are sterile , or if not do they have genetic defects that come to the fore-front further down the line ( I need to look that up ) . So which of you barbarians wants to make world history as the pioneering researcher who dares to do a million-year-old forgotten experiment & take a chimp-babe out on a date to see what pops up ???? - We can name the kid ' Homo -THAK-iensis ' !!!!

- hahaha , l.o.l. - I just re-read that for typos , & it occured to me - thank God I went to art-school , could you imagine if instead I had studied science & they ever let me anywhere near a laboratory ?!?! haha , I shudder to think...............

One reason chimps and humans can't interbreed is inversions and translocations in the chromosomes that prevent the chromosomes from lining up for fertilization and meiosis. But this is not detected in the usual DNA analysis because the DNA can still hybridize in a test tube or on a membrane. This is probably why chimps still exist as a separate species; all the homonids that could interbreed with humans have already been hybridized out of existence and assimilated by horny homoes.

This reminds me of a thread that was running a few months ago, based on a report that some paleontologists think that about 2 million years ago, the ancestors of humanity did interbreed with chimps, and we are the result. Those original ancestors (elves?) later died out leaving only us orcs (?) to evolve into humans.

As for wolf-dog hybrids, I believe they are fertile. I have read about, and even known a few, people who claimed to own "fourth-wolves" or "eighth-wolves".

Edited by Ironhand, 25 September 2006 - 07:46 PM.

[grim cimmerian]

Do you have any links for that - the Alma stuff ? I'm fascinated , maybe obsessed with stuff like all the above .

looks like Kane fielded that one for me nicely Painbrush. thanks Kane.
(I actually was paraphrasing what I had read in a cryptozoology book on Almas, Sasquatch, wendigo, Yeti, Yuan-ti, and other anthropoidical species.)

[PainBrush]

One reason chimps and humans can't interbreed is inversions and translocations in the chromosomes that prevent the chromosomes from lining up for fertilization and meiosis. But this is not detected in the usual DNA analysis because the DNA can still hybridize in a test tube or on a membrane.

Has someone actually tried to find out if chimps & humans can interbreed ? Scary thought !!

all the homonids that could interbreed with humans have already been hybridized out of existence and assimilated by horny homoes.

Even scarier thought !! - It all started with that ' Queer-Eye ' show & Rosy O'Donnell I bet !! hahaha

This reminds me of a thread that was running a few months ago, based on a report that some paleontologists think that about 2 million years ago, the ancestors of humanity did interbreed with chimps, and we are the result. Those original ancestors (elves?) later died out leaving only us orcs (?) to evolve into humans.

It makes you wonder - we know positively that wolves & dogs , horses & donkeys & some other similar to each other animals evolved seperately in much more recent history - in the thousands of years rather than millions & they are now completely different species .

As for wolf-dog hybrids, I believe they are fertile. I have read about, and even known a few, people who claimed to own "fourth-wolves" or "eighth-wolves".

As much as I know about them , I didn't know that for sure , I guess their 98% d.n.a. is much more compatible still than other mules with the same that are always sterile .
I was duped into keeping my hybrid dog by my crazy woman ! - I knew enough about them to know they don't make 'good' pets in the most common sense usage of the word . They inherit the 'hybrid-vigor' phenomenon & grow huge & healthy , but they also inherit the worst traits of both species - dogs are 'friendly' & aren't afraid of people , wolves are 'vicious' & very afraid of people - mix the two & you get a potentially vicious pet that isn't afraid of you in the least !! & WHen they bite - it isn't a 'warning' snap like a dog might give you , it's a bone-crunching chomp !! I know from first hand experience . I told her years ago when she said she thought it would be cool to get a 'wolf-dog' !! Duuhhh !! - I told her all the above ( I knew a bit about what I was talking about - my crazy old injun dad out west rasies full-blooded wolves & told me a bit about it ) - She brought home a puppy one day with the hugest feet I've ever seen , all out of proportion to it's body , when it jumped off the porch into the 2-foot deep snow & tunneled under it for 15 feet before popping his head out & growling at me I fell in love with the little bastard . The next year of hell trying to train it , housebreak it , feed it , get him to stop howling daily - all the usual 'dog' stuff - & the little monster testing me & defying me & BITING the hell out of me everytime I tried to discipline it - & I got really suspicious - & she 'fessed up yeah it was a wolf-dog !

- Now he's my best friend at times & seems almost as intelligent as a person when he runs into & head-butts me in the nads every morning when i wake up & he pushes me across the room ready to play . He plays 'slaps' with me for hours if I wanted to , he comes up wherever I'm sitting , looks me dead in the eye & gives me a quiet woooo & steps right on my feet ( that's a 'dominance' -testing trait ) i put my feet on his paws , he puts his paws on my feet & makes a game of it as fast as we can go & NEVER gets tired of it !! He's also at times my mortal enemy - the bastard still chases my cats whenever they run or walk through the house & he pins them to the floor - which worries me because he's caught 2 possums in the yard in the past year & mawed them & started to chew on their dead bodies , when I tried to get whatever he was chewing away from him he crunched my arm - SMACK !! - He crunched me again & made one of these faces at me.........
& he freaks out if he sees any other animal through the window . The S.O.B. also got ahold of 2 of my turtles & crunched them up when my brainiac woman left them all in the yard together unattended ! ( that's WAR !! ) - As intelligent as he is - behavior like that almost makes him seem evil because he 'knows' better -but his instincts are still too strong for 'domesticated' dog behavior though & it's encoded in his genes to test me time & again to see if it's 'his' turn to be top-dog , or alpha male , he'll probably accomplish what my pythons couldn't & eat me one day !!! Very un-recommended pet - from a very experienced animal nut !!

My favorite Dracula quote " there's much to be learned from beasts " .

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 26 September 2006 - 09:16 AM.

[Kortoso]

Just dug this up from the usual place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_dog

Looks like a wolfdog is not technically a hybrid (here I go again being a geek again) since the wolf and the dog are the same species. Didn't know that. Apparently a 1/2-1/2 cross is too wild, and most wolfdogs are more dilute than that.

you might still use the beast for breeding stock, but I would advise against breeding it with "domestic" breeds like pitbulls. Maybe a wolf-Chihuahua cross would be nicer.

[vikingwarrior]

All of this stuff is super interesting. I dont think we will ever be able to draw up a graph to shaw exactly how we as modern humans came to be. It seems that every time there is a new fossil find there are 10 new theories to explain how it alters the current thoughts. But it is definately intersting to see differing viewpoints from various scientists. Its also really cool to see how much some of you guys know about this kind of thing.

[John Maddox Roberts]

Uh, Painbrush, I hope you realize what a dangerous animal you have there. Dogs are the earliest of domesticated species and they can be plenty tricky. Wolves - not even close. You never know when the primal wolf-genes will take over its brain and it acts accordingly. You can never allow it around children or old or injured people. Signs of weakness trigger the ol' predator instincts. I don't want to suggest you don't know what you're doing, but we can get too sentimental about wild animals. An amazing number of people have been killed by deer for chrissake! Just a caution.

[Ironhand]

Just dug this up from the usual place:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_dog

Looks like a wolfdog is not technically a hybrid (here I go again being a geek again) since the wolf and the dog are the same species. Didn't know that. Apparently a 1/2-1/2 cross is too wild, and most wolfdogs are more dilute than that.

you might still use the beast for breeding stock, but I would advise against breeding it with "domestic" breeds like pitbulls. Maybe a wolf-Chihuahua cross would be nicer.

You'd never see the chhuahua again. "Hey, could I have another one for lunch tomorrow?" I guess I'd recommend a golden retriever or a collie.

[PainBrush]

Looks like a wolfdog is not technically a hybrid (here I go again being a geek again) since the wolf and the dog are the same species. Didn't know that. Apparently a 1/2-1/2 cross is too wild, and most wolfdogs are more dilute than that.

interesting stuff in that link , I always read that wolves were Canis Lupus & dogs were Canis Canis , more recently the canis familiaris or canis domesticus & I've read a little about the genetics - there are definite d.n.a. differences that would probably cause people/scientists of differing opinions to argue if they're actually 2 distinct seperate species ( I have no doubts myself) . Jackals , dingoes , coyotes , canis rufus red-wolves - are all in the Canis genera but are all still distinct seperate species . & 'all' the above will gladly kill & eat each other whenever given an opportunity or an advantage . The thing about wolves & dogs jumping the fences & quite obviously getting back together & mating occasionally over all the eons & 're-investing' the gene-pool ( for lack of any better term i can think of ) has evidently guaranteed that they're still capable of making fertile mule babies I guess . It makes me wonder about the stuff in Ironhands post a few back about humans & chimps & any other species that got bred out - good thing the chimps & the sapiens stopped jumping the fences & mixing the gene-pools WAAAYY back !! hahaha .

Uh, Painbrush, I hope you realize what a dangerous animal you have there. Dogs are the earliest of domesticated species and they can be plenty tricky. Wolves - not even close. You never know when the primal wolf-genes will take over its brain and it acts accordingly. You can never allow it around children or old or injured people. Signs of weakness trigger the ol' predator instincts. I don't want to suggest you don't know what you're doing, but we can get too sentimental about wild animals. An amazing number of people have been killed by deer for chrissake! Just a caution.

Believe me ! - I learned my lesson many years back with my wrestling match with my python - that no matter how much you might think you know an animal - you're an idiot if you ever naively attribute 'human' qualities to any animal - even a chihuahua . You have to always think of an animal strictly on it's own terms & instincts - because without one bit of doubt you can be sure that's how the animal acts !! I think it's completely stupid & absolutely irresponsible to interbreed wolves & dogs for all the reasons you all mentioned & all the reasons I mentioned . They are simply not good pets - are absolutely unpredictable as watchdogs & letting dog genes into wolf populations is even more useless for ANY purpose . I only still have the one I own because my super intelligent woman (!) got it as a puppy like 6 months or so before we moved in together a few years back & she didn't mention the hybrid thing to me until it occured to me to ask after I finally figured it out . By then the dog had grown on me & I can't begin to think about getting rid of him unless he ever does get out of hand - he's never once even so much as snarled at her though he's mawed my hand & arm a couple times . When he killed my turtles , for just a split second there I might have brained him if I could have caught him with my bad ankle ! - My old ladies mistake tho , not mine - she has YET to live that down .

you might still use the beast for breeding stock, but I would advise against breeding it with "domestic" breeds like pitbulls. Maybe a wolf-Chihuahua cross would be nicer.

You'd never see the chhuahua again. "Hey, could I have another one for lunch tomorrow?" I guess I'd recommend a golden retriever or a collie.

It never occured to me to look up whether or not second generation hybrids on down the line were fertile or not , I assumed they weren't but the beast was neutered anyhow 'just-in-case' ! For all the reasons I mentioned above I'd have a heart attack thinking about if he considered an unfamiliar little chihuahua just another crunchy possum to eat ! He's only ever got loose ONCE ! - when he was still a fluffball puppy running in the snow & didn't know any better . I guaranteed he'd never get loose again & have my yard padlocked & palisaded .

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 27 September 2006 - 01:54 AM.