97 replies to this topic

[Darkstorm Dale]

My new map of the lands to the east of Hyboria is finished and posted on my website along with my essay, "The Blue East", which explains why I placed everything where I did. It's a pretty decent essay, in my mind.
The Blue East

And earlier map and essay about Stygia and the Black Kingdoms can be found on my site as well.
To the Styx and Beyond.

I have a pretty good track record designing maps compiled from the writings of fantasy authors. My map of Kane's world (Karl Edward Wagner) has been endorsed by his heirs and appears in the Night Shade Kane books, while my map of the Drenai world was personally chosen by David Gemmell to be his official map, and has appeared in WHITE WOLF and THE SWORDS OF NIGHT AND DAY.

Edited by Darkstorm Dale, 15 October 2006 - 03:16 AM.

[elegos7]

Dale,

Congratulations to your new essay on the Blue East. I noticed it last night a read it into the wee hours.
The essay has totally fulfilled my expectations. There are some interesting new details in the essay, like the cities in Ghulistan. I have not read Howard syopsis for the Black Circle and would not have thought that it contains some new information on the geography of that region that is not included in the story itself.
The map looks excellent as well.
I will take a deeper look on the essay and the map, but let me ask you something right now.

The region of the golden kingdoms seems to be divided into 2 parts. Are these your proposed countries Bakhtrish and Kherdistan?

Do you plan any further essays on the geography of the Hyborian Age?
Once you mentioned that you have some maps detailing the era of Kull and the Cataclysmic era. I hope you will write an essay about these eras as well (the publication of the Kull book in a few weeks should give reliable infos on the geography of the Thurian Age)

Keep on your excellent work

elegos7

[Darkstorm Dale]

Congratulations to your new essay on the Blue East. I noticed it last night a read it into the wee hours.
The essay has totally fulfilled my expectations. There are some interesting new details in the essay, like the cities in Ghulistan. I have not read Howard syopsis for the Black Circle and would not have thought that it contains some new information on the geography of that region that is not included in the story itself.
The map looks excellent as well.
I will take a deeper look on the essay and the map, but let me ask you something right now.

The region of the golden kingdoms seems to be divided into 2 parts. Are these your proposed countries Bakhtrish and Kherdistan?

Yes and no. They aren't specifically Bakhtrish and Kherdistan, but rather to imply that more than one "golden kingdom" exists at that location. I might have broken it into more regions but at that scale the map would have looked a mess. I suppose I should have left it as a single area with the title of "The Golden Kingdoms", much like Howard did with the Border Kingdom on his map.

Do you plan any further essays on the geography of the Hyborian Age?

Yes, the next one will be about the lands in the Unknown west, and the final one will be a look at the layout of Howard's maps versus the descriptions in the Conan stories (a bit of that appeared in the Turan section of The Blue East)

Once you mentioned that you have some maps detailing the era of Kull and the Cataclysmic era. I hope you will write an essay about these eras as well (the publication of the Kull book in a few weeks should give reliable infos on the geography of the Thurian Age)

I've started on a world map of Kull's Thurian Age, but I've put it on the back burner until the DelRey Kull is published. It should come out a few weeks after I've read it.

[Kortoso]

Wonderful work, Dale. We had a discussion elsewhere about whether the Vilayet Sea would be freshwater or salty (a DM needed to know if he could let the player characters drink from it in a game), and I noticed that the Caspian Sea is supposed to be brackish (half and half); reeds could still grow along its shores.

[Taranaich]

I had re-read The People of the Black Circle, and I had also thought that Secunderam was a Ghuli city. It's good to see I'm not going mad, or at least that I'm sharing the madness.

Howardising Bactria's a neat touch, though I think that the Mahajanapadas would be more suitable sources of inspiration for the Golden Kingdoms: Kosala and Gandhara are two of them. But hey, it's nice to see Bactria recognised at all.

Fantastic work!

[Darkstorm Dale]

I had re-read The People of the Black Circle, and I had also thought that Secunderam was a Ghuli city. It's good to see I'm not going mad, or at least that I'm sharing the madness.

Howardising Bactria's a neat touch, though I think that the Mahajanapadas would be more suitable sources of inspiration for the Golden Kingdoms: Kosala and Gandhara are two of them. But hey, it's nice to see Bactria recognised at all.

Fantastic work!

I chose Persian provincial names mostly because it was apparent that settlers from Iranistan crossed those lands in order to settle in Ghulistan and Vendhya. Howard uses Bakhaurus as a regional city, so Bactria (as Bakhtrish) seemed to be the logical choice. Although I certainly have no problem with utilizing the westernmost kingdoms of the Mahajanapadas, such as Gandhara (Chandahara) or Kamboja. According to Howard's writings though, Kosala doesn't really work out as a golden kingdom in that region.

[Taranaich]

Indeed, though I guess I'm so used to thinking of Bactria as an Indo-Greek civilization, considering their role in the Diadochi conflicts.

It's really quite amazing how you fleshed out Iranistan from being merely a name into an integral part of the history of the Hyborian age, and it totally makes sense as well. Are you planning on adding cities and places of interest to the map?

[Darkstorm Dale]

good read,but Im waiting for your map,Dale.

There was a map of the region at the beginning of the essay. Or are you referring to some other map?

[Darkstorm Dale]

It's really quite amazing how you fleshed out Iranistan from being merely a name into an integral part of the history of the Hyborian age, and it totally makes sense as well. Are you planning on adding cities and places of interest to the map?

It wouldn't be that hard to add the cities in places like Kosala, Hyrkania, and Khitai. It would be a bit tougher to add the cities to Vendhya, although I've got a pretty decent idea where they are located. I would pretty much need separate maps showing Turan and Ghulistan, since there is so much detail in those areas.
I've got a mapping program called CC2 Pro that I'm playing around with; might see what I can do with that.

[Almuric]

Great article, Dale. Your site is one of my favorites.

[Darkstorm Dale]

I was under the impression that you had the complete Hyborian map.

Ok, now I know what you're asking about. I've had several requests for different maps lately; it's sort of hard to keep straight.
I have rough copies of the different periods from the Thurian Age until the post-Hyborian Ice Age. I'm also working on mapping out the entire world at the time of the Hyborian Age. I want to (and will) map out the complete Hyborian Age Earth, but first I need to finish the research. There is no point putting out a map that hasn't been properly researched. I find too many errors in other people's map to completely trust them anymore. If you think the wait is hard, try doing the research...

[Kortoso]

I've got a mapping program called CC2 Pro that I'm playing around with; might see what I can do with that.

They have a cool fractal program, too.

[elegos7]

Dale,

Are you sure that the whole of Khitai was situated so far to the south? Even though its capital Paikang is discribed as a city in a jungle, its name bears a striking resemblance to China's current capital Peking (spelled as Beijing). It is possible that during the Hyborian age the territory of today's Peking had a much milder climate where jungles could grow. It would shift the border of Khitai to the north, replacing the coastal areas that are in Hyrkania according to your map.
This small ambiguity does not diminish the value of your excellent work. Keep producing such well-researched maps to the delight of all of us.

[Darkstorm Dale]

Dale,

Are you sure that the whole of Khitai was situated so far to the south? Even though its capital Paikang is discribed as a city in a jungle, its name bears a striking resemblance to China's current capital Peking (spelled as Beijing). It is possible that during the Hyborian age the territory of today's Peking had a much milder climate where jungles could grow. It would shift the border of Khitai to the north, replacing the coastal areas that are in Hyrkania according to your map.
This small ambiguity does not diminish the value of your excellent work. Keep producing such well-researched maps to the delight of all of us.

A milder climate would grow pine forests, not jungle. Jungle is tropical. Besides, The Hyborian Age Essay pretty much claims that Hyrkania stretched all the way to the Eastern ocean.
As for the Paikang/Beijing name; it really doen't mean much. Nearly every name of an actual historical city that Howard used in the Conan stories is located somewhere other than it's historical location. Look up places like Akbitania/Ecbatana, Luxor/Luxor, Zamboula/Istanbul, Ayodhya/Ayodhya, Khorshemish/Carchemish, or Asgalun/Ascalon for just a few cities that no where near their historical counterparts.

[deuce]

Hey Dale! I was gonna reply to Elegos' post but you took the words right outta my mouth (and then some). Now, I reserve the right to agree to disagree with you, but you also know that I've supported your efforts ever since I became aware of 'em. That said, I hafta say that The Blue East is the most polished gem of Howard scholarship that you've ever crafted. Anyway, I'm going to just run thru the essay and comment wherever the fancy strikes me...

Ilbars R.: This is so strange... The course of the river (as you've proven,IMO) in the Hyborian Age is almost a MIRROR IMAGE of what one would expect, being familiar with Howard's geographic borrowing methods. The "model" for the Ilbars, one would think, would have to be the mighty Safid R. of n. Iran. It flows n.e. out of the ELBURZ Mts into the s. Caspian Sea, pretty much diametrically opposite from where the Ilbars enters the Vilayet.

Balkhan: from Balkh/Bactrus/Paktra, the original capital of Bactria on the Oxus R.

Secunderam: an anagram of Samarkand, the city from which Babur (the future Mogul) began his conquest of Afghanistan. Look at it like this: SAKANDARAM/SAMARKAND. Begram, a city n. of Kabul, may have also influenced the name.

Iranistan: Right on, Dale! A few yrs ago, when I realized that Khauran and Khoraja were Hyborian "Crusader kingdoms" it made me wonder: did REH repeat/precurse the Indo-Iranian invasions in Iranistan and Vendhya? Dig this scenario: the Hyborians cast down Acheron and thunder south. Their eastern flank hits Kuthchemes, rolls over it AND JUST KEEPS ON GOING. They cross the Kharamun, lured bytales of "golden cities" (sorta like Coronado), and settle in (future) Iranistan. The rest, as you've laid out in your fine essay, is Hyborian history. Some have tried to say that Turan is a cross between the Ottoman and Persian empires. With Iranistan in the picture this would be redundant. Plus, REH showed his views on the Turks in several tales ("Vulture","Lord of Samarcand", etc...). His Persians come off better, tho' they seem prone to intrigue. Some have noted the Persian origin of "Yazdegerd". This just shows he had an Iranistani mother, IMO. Another point in favor of a "Hyborian" Iranistan: it would bring Mitra home. Ancient Iran/Persia is where Mitra worship came from. I see the Iranistanis worshipping Mitra and the old, pre-Zarathustra mother goddess Tanata/Ananita, plus some lesser gods. Speaking of Tanata...

Iranistani "mother" river: I nominate Tanata as a likely name for it. It would follow the model of "mother goddess" rivers like the Danube and the Don. Hell, it even sounds kinda like 'em.

Ghaza: probably from Ghazni (IMO), a city situated in the wine growing region that includes Shiraz and Herat. Way to go on this one, Dale. I missed the clues in "Zamboula" that you caught. You're right, no wine that gets hauled 1500 m. is gonna be "cheap", not on a regular basis.

Thumbs up on your Vendhya and Kosala placements! Not only does your Vendhya placement jibe with Howard, but it also roughly reflects the borders of "Aryan" India, which REH knew about. Kosala has been a conundrum to me for some time. I think your solution solves all the major problems involved. Is there a barrier betwixt noth and south Vendhya corresponding to the Deccan? If so, I propose "Thuggan" or "Thaggan" which would suggest/evoke the Thag/Thug cult which operated there in later India.

Baal-Pteor: master of mesmerism? Are you sure you didn't mean "Totrasmek"?


Bakhaurus: Bukhara, a rug-making center in Tajikistan, a Persian speaking country. Samarcand is also Tajik. As is Xujand (Khujand); a possible lost green-stone city, Dale?

Oh well. It's late. Workin' tomorrow. I'll do Part II then.

[Darkstorm Dale]

Secunderam: an anagram of Samarkand, the city from which Babur (the future Mogul) began his conquest of Afghanistan. Look at it like this: SAKANDARAM/SAMARKAND. Begram, a city n. of Kabul, may have also influenced the name.

L. Sprague DeCamp thought that the name Secunderam came from Secunderabad, India. I like your theory, though.

Iranistan: Right on, Dale! A few yrs ago, when I realized that Khauran and Khoraja were Hyborian "Crusader kingdoms" it made me wonder: did REH repeat/precurse the Indo-Iranian invasions in Iranistan and Vendhya? Dig this scenario: the Hyborians cast down Acheron and thunder south. Their eastern flank hits Kuthchemes, rolls over it AND JUST KEEPS ON GOING. They cross the Kharamun, lured bytales of "golden cities" (sorta like Coronado), and settle in (future) Iranistan. The rest, as you've laid out in your fine essay, is Hyborian history. Some have tried to say that Turan is a cross between the Ottoman and Persian empires. With Iranistan in the picture this would be redundant. Plus, REH showed his views on the Turks in several tales ("Vulture","Lord of Samarcand", etc...). His Persians come off better, tho' they seem prone to intrigue. Some have noted the Persian origin of "Yazdegerd". This just shows he had an Iranistani mother, IMO. Another point in favor of a "Hyborian" Iranistan: it would bring Mitra home. Ancient Iran/Persia is where Mitra worship came from. I see the Iranistanis worshipping Mitra and the old, pre-Zarathustra mother goddess Tanata/Ananita, plus some lesser gods. Speaking of Tanata...

Interesting theory. I'm not sure how well the timeline for that lays out, but I do like the idea of Mitra worship in Iranistan.

Iranistani "mother" river: I nominate Tanata as a likely name for it. It would follow the model of "mother goddess" rivers like the Danube and the Don. Hell, it even sounds kinda like 'em.

That's because nearly all European languages are descended from the Indo-Iranian (Aryan) mother tongue. That being said, I love the name and if it were up to me, the Tanata River would be definitely be my first choice.

Baal-Pteor: master of mesmerism? Are you sure you didn't mean "Totrasmek"?

Nope. Baal-Pteor slung some seriously strong illusionary magic at Conan to successfully disarm him.

Xujand (Khujand); a possible lost green-stone city, Dale?

Could be if the sole criteria was that the city's name needs to start with X...

[Darkstorm Dale]

I was meditating on elegos7's post about the location of Paikang today when something occurred to me that I hadn't really considered before. It concerns the land of Hyrkania and its history.

In my essay, The Blue East, I gave a short account of some of the Lemurian ex-slaves forming the Hyrkanian culture in the lands to the north of Khitai. This happened approximately one thousand years after the Lesser Cataclysm. During this time they domesticated the horse, learned mastery of the recurved bow, and perfected metallurgy to the point where they could design intricate silvered chain mail armor.

Now the thing that struck me was that the Hyrkanians didn't actually make it into the West until well after the formation of Hyboria, in fact not until after the settling of Nordheim. The Hyborian Age essay mentions that the eastward expansion of the Hyrkanians took several centuries prior to the founding of Turan. In my essay I theorized that the founding of Turan took place about a thousand years prior to Conan's reign.

Anyway, I realized that something like 4500 to 5000 years had passed between the Lesser Cataclysm and Conan's life, then the Hyrkanians have been living on the fertile plains of northern China for something like 2000 to 2500 years before expanding into western Hyrkania. This implies that if there is a heavily settled, cultural center to the Hyrkanian nation, an "Old Hyrkania" as it were, it is in the east, along the shore of the Eastern Ocean and not in the west along the eastern edge of the Vilayet Sea. Nearly all of the pastiche works about Hyrkania and even the Mongoose roleplaying game present Hyrkania's cultural region as being centered around the Vilayet Sea and the east as relatively undeveloped. I think that's the wrong way to look at it.

I think Hyrkania is something like the USA during the mid-19th century. Most of its population lived along the eastern seaboard, and even though California and Oregon (think Turan) were settled in the west, most everything in between was lightly settled at best with hunter-gatherer tribes roaming the lands in between (though in this case they are nomadic Hyrkanian tribes).

Edited by Darkstorm Dale, 20 October 2006 - 04:01 AM.