21 replies to this topic

[deuce]

The "time limit" for comment on Busiek's timeless, classic "heroine" in the CONAN letter pages has run out. I was just curious what the posters on the REH Forum thought of Kurt's ambidextrous, demon-raped spitfire. Does she reflect what REH "might" have created?

[Taranaich]

I really like the idea of Janissa, but not so much the execution, mostly because of niggling things.

What exactly was stopping the demons from killing and/or consuming Janissa? If it's through fear or a pact with the Bone Woman, then they can't be particularly powerful demons to fear a mere mortal. It kind of negates Howard's theme that anything supernatural is ungodly powerful, and can only be killed in special circumastances. Every time Conan kills a demon, it's a one-on-one fight to Conan's distinct disadvantage: yet we are expected to believe that Janissa could eventually kill a multitude of them single-handedly?

I'm also not particularly sold with the idea of giving a woman strength of character by raping her daily. I mean, this isn't subjected to male characters, so why should a female character suffer it? I doubt we'd have as much respect for Arnold's Conan if instead of a gladiatorial arena he was stuck in a demonic brothel for ten years until he eventually became strong enough to kill his pimps. It's a daft concept, and one that perpetuates the idea that female warriors can never be truly equal to men, even if they have proven themselves in combat.

If I was portraying a warrior woman in a Conan story, I would resist the urge to play the "fish-out-of-water" card, by having her come from a warrior society, and have none of the cliched "our women don't fight like you" stuff we get every time there's a female warrior in a story. Have a tale set in Cimmeria, Nordheim, Amazonia or wherever, somewhere that female warriors are either common or otherwise unremarkable. Take notes from Irish mythology, where women trained young men for war, harnessing the sexual energy of youth to make powerful fighters. I'd love to see a nod to Cuchullain in Conan's youth, where he manages to win his tutor's respect (and the, ahem, "friendship of her thighs", as the legends say) only by defeating her in combat, though preferably without Cuchullain's cowardly trickery.

[Strom]

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some more of the Bone Woman/Janissa storyline. There just hasn't been enough detail or plot advancement to really know what Kurt was trying to do with both of those characters and their relationship to Conan. For one thing, it appears that Janissa's loyalty is to the Bone Woman and so her origin - as she related it - could just be a ruse or partial truth. I know Truman was informed of what Kurt had in store for the Bone Woman/Janissa plot but I haven't read anything that Tim plans to follow Kurt's original idea or maybe tweak it a little. Any hints Tim?

I imagine DH wouldn't mind seeing Janissa become a popular character that could be spun off into a mini-series or two. It's been proven that a strong, beautiful female who can handle a sword makes for some great chemistry and stories with Conan. Just because her name isn't Red Sonja shouldn't stop us from having fun reading those type of stories. But, i do think a lot of character development and advancement still needs to be done with Janissa.

Hopefully, some more of the Janissa story will be told sooner rather than later.

[Officer Aggro]

I don't think Janissa is the type of character that REH would have created, but I like her anyway. I'm not so keen on the idea of her being raped daily by nasty demons, but it doesn't really bother me, and I certainly don't feel any pity for her. She was willing to do whatever it took to become what she is, and she "sold her soul to the devil" so to speak. Being an assassin, she's not the typical swordswoman, and the fact that she'd sneak up on her victims using "questionable" tactics makes her even more dangerous. I'm looking forward to finding out more about her and the Bonewoman.

Edited by Officer Aggro, 03 November 2006 - 02:59 AM.

[Kortoso]

She probably would have been WAY more interesting if her backstory hadn't been revealed.

[realbigguy]

She probably would have been WAY more interesting if her backstory hadn't been revealed.

Especially the really cheesy way he did it. Id like her more if I really just didnt like the whole concept of the deadly half dressed chick thing. Sorry, but I hate that stuff. A woman running around with the bottom half of her boobs hanging out swinging a sword is played out these days. Cheesecake is a pretty time honored tradition with Conan, but I dont know, Janissa is a cheap character. I was hoping Tim would just forget she existed and just leave her out of the stories.

[Kortoso]

A woman running around with the bottom half of her boobs hanging out swinging a sword is played out these days.

I got no problem with the costume, just for the record...

[Officer Aggro]

I'd like her more if I really just didnt like the whole concept of the deadly half dressed chick thing.

But Conan, a deadly half-dressed dude, is ok, right?

[budgie]

I'd like her more if I really just didnt like the whole concept of the deadly half dressed chick thing.

But Conan, a deadly half-dressed dude, is ok, right?

Most of the DH series has Conan dressed most of the time which Im glad to see.. Im so sick of the "naked 'cept for fur undies and boots look"..In the novels hes rarely representewd as that type of image.

As for Janissa Im indifferent about her, shes nothing exciting as a character and am probably in the same boat as realbigguy.. same goes for Red Sonja/Sonya (cant remember which spelling).. not really how I imagine a warrior woman at all.. a bit skinny for my liking. I would imagine a woman walking about that in the Hyborian age to be rape bait.

The Bone Womans a bit more of an interesting character though

Budgie

[War Song]

Does she reflect what REH "might" have created?

No, I doubt Robert E. Howard would have made such basic storytelling mistakes that Kurt Busiek made when creating Janissa. Kurt's Janissa character seems badly conceived, suffers from poor characterization and, worst of all, her backstory was revealed far too early. In my opinion, the character is flat and one-note. All in all, she seems like bizarro rip-off of Thomas' Red Sonja.

Each time Janissa appears in the new Conan comic series, I cringe. The acknowledged fact that artist Cary Nord based Janissa's visual look on Lucy Lawless as Xena: Warrior Princess encapsulates the basic problem with the character: Everything about her is a rip-off of something else.

Edited by War Song, 05 November 2006 - 02:12 PM.

[deuce]

I only have read very few of Conan by Dark Horse but the character Janissa is very interesting for me, I don't understand why Conan and Howard fans and scholars seem to not like her ~ Ollonois ~

I guess I would have to respond by asking exactly what it is about Janissa that you see as being particularly "Howardian". In what way is Janissa similar to other "sword-women" that REH created? Just as important, does Janissa embody the core beliefs propounded by REH? If so, in what way? Honestly, I can't see it.

[Skullface]

I have seen bird droppings with a better back story than Janissa.
As comicbook guy would say "worst character ever"
Very far removed from Howards females....they are strong,being raped daily is as weak as you could be.
The sooner forgotten the better.

[Slashing Sword]

One of the worst Conan characters DH created... glad she is not brought back.

[deuce]

One of the worst Conan characters DH created... glad she is not brought back.

Agreed. Here's a write-up on "the Widowmaker":

http://www.writeups....che.php?id=4740

A lot of wacky crap to comment on therein, which I'll have to put off til later.

[Taranaich]

Janissa: "Back, Cimmerian. If you've come seeking a bed-partner, you sniff at the wrong ---"
Conan: "No. Some of your sword-work, when we fought. I'd like to see it again --- to learn how it is done."
Janissa: "Pff. I thought you could break me in two...?"
Conan: "And perhaps I can. But you have more skill than I'd expect of a woman."
Janissa: "Most men wouldn't admit to that. Then again, most men don't live long enough."
- Conversation between Conan and Janissa

Yet...

"The princess would go with us. She?s supple, but too soft for this work. Anyway, she'll have
to get out of these robes."

Amalric twisted his yellow mustache to hide a grin. Evidently Conan supposed Yasmela
intended to strap on a sword and take part in the actual fighting, as the barbarian women often
fought.

"The women of the Hyborians do not fight like your Cimmerian women, Conan,"
- "Black Colossus"

These things don't go together, now do they?

The write-up is bizarre, and I think a result of the author doing extremely little research on not only Howard's notes or Howard scholarship, but the stories themselves. In particular, he seems blissfully unaware of "The Hyborian Age," which answer most of his "difficult to determine" questions and contradict his theories. In a vacuum based purely on the comics, I could see it working. But the comics weren't made in a vacuum, as we all know.

Since the Conan-verse is a very static place

Apart from the Aquilonian expansion into Pictish territory, and the massive eastern empire which has more than tripled in extent in Conan's lifetime. Then again, this happens after "The Widowmaker," and it's clear the guy hasn't read "The Hyborian Age" either.

The great cataclysm changed coastal borders and created new seas, but the peoples and cultures remain much unchanged to modern times.

That's true. Well, apart from the fact the Hyborians are wiped out by the Picts and Hyrkanians, the Nordheimr conquer the rest of the world, the Vanir conquer Stygia, and the Cimmerians globetrott all the way to the Black Sea... Really, the only cultures which could remotely be considered unchanged is Khitai.

A proposed list of some of the old Hyborean languages, which are all supposed to be very different to each other, would consist of the pre-languages of modern Basque, Maltese, Turkish, the odd languages of the Caucasus and the Uralic languages.These were all present in larger Europe before the arrival of the indo-europeans ("the sons of arya"). Of course, a lot of other Hyborean languages would also have dissappeared almost without a trace. Since Zingara is basically very early Spain, Janissa's native language was possibly a form of early Basque.

This is one of those nice ideas that unfortunately doesn't make sense, since Howard left direct clues that contradict them. Namely that the Basque are descendants of the Picts, for example.

This is in contrast with the origins of Red Sonja, who is supposedly the template for Janissa. Red Sonja was from Hyrkania, which would equate the original Turkish homelands. Red Sonja, the original turk, would have spoken a pre-language of Turkish. The name Janissa, resembling the word janissary, might be a homage to Robert E. Howard's writings and the origins of Red Sonja (who was from Hyrkania, the original Turkish homelands).

No comment.

As to Conan himself, it is, unfortunately difficult to determine what he, being from Cimmeria, which equates to southern Sweden, Denmark and Scotland, would have spoken. Cimmerian is characterized by a strong accent and would have been a language that was spoken before the introduction of Germanic in the area. As to his culture, it's clear that Conan came from the Beowulf area.

What.

So, let's see: Howard explicitly says the Cimmerians are the ancestors of the Irish and Scottish Gaels. Every single word and name linked to the Cimmerians, be it the list of names in Howard's notes to the gods Conan swears by, is Gaelic. Conan is described very similarly to many of Howard's Gaelic heroes, and not particularly similarly to his Nordic heroes. Do I have to draw ya a freakin' diagram, dude?

The period of 8000 - 10000 B.C. in the DC Universe is a mysterious and little explored era. The Hyborean world fits well on the African continent.

[krommtaar]

As to Conan himself, it is, unfortunately difficult to determine what he, being from Cimmeria, which equates to southern Sweden, Denmark and Scotland, would have spoken. Cimmerian is characterized by a strong accent and would have been a language that was spoken before the introduction of Germanic in the area. As to his culture, it's clear that Conan came from the Beowulf area.

Taranaich, I mentioned in the past the fact that Cimmeria has been labeled as "ancient Norway or Denmark or Sweden" in translated european versions of SSOC & CTB in the 80's, either in the fanmail, or by the editors.
Plain ridiculous. even in those comics, it sufficed to read Conan's curses "by Macha and Nemain" or "by Mannanan McLir" which hinted to celtic folklore and not scandinavian gods.

Some people still try to identify with Thracians or Trojans...and Cimmerians. Look at this pot-pourri of alleged origins of the Swedes I found on a blog .
http://www.wendag.co...-swedish-people
the "author" Tim Osterholm already decided that Thracians=Trojans= Aesirs= Thraco-Cimmerians=Cimmerians=early Scandinavians . WTFFF!!

He doesn't even doubt about his explanations,for him they're not simple theories ripped here and there from classical authors (for the mythological origins of germanic people) and 19th century extrapolations , but his own truth.

This role playing character sheet poorly written by Peter Piispanen ( a finn apparently) corresponds to those odd beliefs cited by Osterholm, in the sense that "Beowulf area" protagonists as he calls them (early inhabitants of Götland) are Cimmerians.
Nonsense and completely in opposition to Howard's world. Why reinvent the Hyborian world according to medieval tradition and 19th century theories? Howard already made his choice amongst these!!

Concerning Piispanen's views about Africa & Hyboria : no comment.

Now back to Janissa (before the mods think I'm going completely off topic eheh) :
Dark Horse promised to wash away any Marvel-esque extrapolations and influence, and thus start from scratch.
This is why I'm asking: WHY did they recreate an "Image/TopCow Comics" version of Red Sonja , when introducing .."Janissa" ?
The origins anecdote consisting of being raped for eons by demons is stupid and doesn't fit the usual Conan supporting characters. We're not dealing with 'Witchblade' or 'Darkness' worlds here !
Did you know that Marvel already attempted to introduce a Red Sonja like substitute : "Snow Raven" the brigandess, even though her origins were totally unknown .
She appeared in SSOC95 and two other issues. The plots involving here were rip-offs of Red Sonja -Conan comicbook quests, where both were after gems or a treasure of some sort, collaborating together at some time and betraying afterwards in #95 while in #107 she makes a pact with hyborian age cyborg Boraq Sharaq etc...

I think Snow Raven was Fleischer & Chan's response to Roy Thomas & BWS & MAroto & Thorne's Sonja but with an evil twist.

Snow Raven only lasted 3 issues though ( #95, #107 & #132), though #132 is dubious: she's khitan too and bears the same name but doesn't have that typical haircut, nor white hair, and is a tribe's princess instead of being a master thief. Conan saves her from a group rape and later she decides to adopt a Conan-esque "rogue life". Perhaps this is some sort of prequel to the first two episodes, Marvel never clarified.

Since Thomas is now working for DH, isn't there any way to reintroduce Red Sonja anymore? Woudl fans be radically against this? Would Dynamite Craptertainment fiercly oppose this possibility? After all Sonja and Kulan Gath were not Stanley Lieberman creations ... ( which leads to the second question: how come the latter has exclusive rights concerning these two characters?)

I'm sure most early Conan comics fans who remember those great BWS episodes wouldn't be against seeing again Sonja and Gath in a Conan story, far from it.

Better that than uninspired & weird rip-offs(Snow Raven as well as Janissa) of Sonja I say. What do you think?

Edited by krommtaar, 24 February 2011 - 08:13 PM.

[Ironhand]

I would just like to point out that in Frost Giant's Daughter, a Nordheimer goddess regards Conan as an alien.

(sorry for the offtopic)

I would just as soon forget about Janissa.

[deuce]

Dark Horse promised to wash away any Marvel-esque extrapolations and influence, and thus start from scratch.
This is why I'm asking: WHY did they recreate an "Image/TopCow Comics" version of Red Sonja , when introducing .."Janissa" ?

Because, when all is said and done, Busiek is a superhero fanboy who was just dabbling in REH/Conan/S&S. Now, he's pushing DC's execrable "Gideon Caine". I am not surprised in the slightest.

[deuce]

Janissa: "Back, Cimmerian. If you've come seeking a bed-partner, you sniff at the wrong ---"
Conan: "No. Some of your sword-work, when we fought. I'd like to see it again --- to learn how it is done."
Janissa: "Pff. I thought you could break me in two...?"
Conan: "And perhaps I can. But you have more skill than I'd expect of a woman."
Janissa: "Most men wouldn't admit to that. Then again, most men don't live long enough."
- Conversation between Conan and Janissa

Yet...

"The princess would go with us. She's supple, but too soft for this work. Anyway, she'll have
to get out of these robes."

Amalric twisted his yellow mustache to hide a grin. Evidently Conan supposed Yasmela
intended to strap on a sword and take part in the actual fighting, as the barbarian women often
fought.

"The women of the Hyborians do not fight like your Cimmerian women, Conan,"
- "Black Colossus"

These things don't go together, now do they?

Exactly what I would've written, Taranaich. Busiek didn't know the Hyborian Age well enough to write it. Here's another good one:


Janissa, In a test of skill with Conan: "They're all death-battles, Cimmerian. The wound is shallow, but you'll soon be blinded by blood. Does it sting your pride, to be bested by a ---" [Conan hits her in the face ; she goes down, and hard -- but just as swiftly ---] "Bones of Yokal ! You die now, grunting northern--"

What's this "Bones of Yokal" business? There are PLENTY of oaths right in the Howard yarns, but Busiek once again felt his "creativity" bone itchin'. Just like KB felt the need to invent a Zingaran town when REH had already provided other names.

[Fernando]

In Dark Horse, Janissa is a white-skinned, brown-haired Zingaran. However, in THotD, when Conan is looking for Beloso, he says to Publio that Beloso is "tall and lean and dark like all his race".

IMO, it means that, despite the fact Conan saw many Zingarans in his life as Barachan and Corsair (and, agreeing with REH, Zingara's people was not 100% dark), he never saw a light-skinned Zingaran in his whole life!!