79 replies to this topic

[Strom]

Just for clarification - I thought the question was "why didn't Conan take any jewels on his way out of the tower (left empty handed). I was joking about searching the tower - although he might of. Just wanted to clear that up since I seem to be the only one who missed the question.

[Dragon Girl]

I just figure that Conan was more concerned about getting the hell away from all that creepy, evil sorcery. Howard often emphasized how Conan's mind was filled with atavistic fears of the supernatural, a legacy of his barbaric heritage.

[Kortoso]

Maybe he did pick up a jewel, and find out it was cursed, which leads to the events in Rogues in the House?

[Fernando]

The Tower of the Elephant

These people were strange and mysterious to him; they were not of his kind ? not even of the same blood as the more westerly Brythunians, Nemedians, Kothians and Aquilonians, whose civilized mysteries had awed him in times past.

The excerpt above doesn't leave doubts about where Conan walked between his flight from Hyperborea and his arriving to Zamora. It was too bad Kurt Busiek had changed it, replacing Aquilonia and Koth by Ophir and Corinthia. Conan could, of course, had walked by Ophir, since it's the shorter way between Aquilonia and Koth, but REH is, IMO, explicit about the Cimmerian had never met a supernatural foe in Ophir, before he goes to Zamora.

[deuce]

The Tower of the Elephant

These people were strange and mysterious to him; they were not of his kind ? not even of the same blood as the more westerly Brythunians, Nemedians, Kothians and Aquilonians, whose civilized mysteries had awed him in times past.

The excerpt above doesn't leave doubts about where Conan walked between his flight from Hyperborea and his arriving to Zamora. It was too bad Kurt Busiek had changed it, replacing Aquilonia and Koth by Ophir and Corinthia. Conan could, of course, had walked by Ophir, since it's the shorter way between Aquilonia and Koth, but REH is, IMO, explicit about the Cimmerian had never met a supernatural foe in Ophir, before he goes to Zamora.

Quite right, Fernando! I have that passage underlined in my copy of The Coming of Conan. "TotE" was a "Conan SotM" before I ever started posting annotations, so that hasn't made it to the forum (by me) yet.

[Slokes]

"Tower Of The Elephant" is worth reading for Conan fans, but would it be one you'd pass on to someone you wanted to introduce to Conan, or only knew him from comics and movies?

The positives:

+ Rich Atmospherics - Right from the opening line, which plants you in the seediest section of an unnamed city (Roy Thomas calls it the "City of Thieves", but that can't be right. What would they name their Chamber of Commerce?), you get a pungent whiff of what Conan's world is all about: "Torchlight licked luridly from broken windows and wide-thrown doors, and out of those doors, stale smells of wine and rank sweaty bodies, clamor of drinking-jacks and fists hammered on rough tables, snatches of obscene songs, rushed like a blow in the face."

+ Nice Moral Balancing Act - Early on, the amoral quality of Conan's world is garishly celebrated, with casual killings and a thieving life that obviously doesn't dote on the sufferings of its victims. But Conan grows a lot over the course of the story, particular when confronted with Yag-Kosha. Not my favorite element of the story (see below), Yag-Kosha does push a different side of Conan than the character who doesn't want to get involved, to the point where he gives up his reason for being in the Tower without a second thought

+ Textured Setting - We really get a tactile sense for the Tower and its environs, with Conan laying flat on broad copings while overhead, scintillant jewels wink in the starlight and an eerie silence predominates. It's easy to imagine ourselves standing at the top of this huge structure with the pair of thieves, wondering what the evening will hold.

+ Taurus - The footpad with the padded stomach, Taurus is a riddle to me. What was going to happen with him and Conan had they found the jewel and all went according to plan? They couldn't very well split it. There's a moment of doubt on Conan's part, when Taurus asks him to have one last look around the roofline to see all is well. "[A] faint suspicion of his companion touched his wary soul" Howard writes, but its all academic soon enough. Still, Taurus's reaction to Conan, and the true nature of his partnering with this untested lad, makes me wonder, in a good way. I like the ambiguity here.

+ Great Lines - A lot of quotable ones, including the one about civilized men being more often impolite than savages quoted above, and others, too, like: "...Zamora's religion, like all things of a civilized, long-settled people, was intricate and complex, and had lost most of the pristine essence in a maze of formulas and rituals." And: "He had never seen an elephant, but he vaguely understood that it was a monstrous animal, with a tail in front as well as behind." And: Conan's note about having lived "a life noways tame".

The drawbacks:

- Much Ado About Nothing - The story really is parked in neutral for a long time, with a long stretch of lovely atmospherics and nothing else going on. Conan seems a bystander much of the time, not only with Yag-Kosha and Yara but also with Taurus. There seems to be a need for something to kick-start Conan on his quest, but he just seems to do it on an impulse.

- Lame fights - The main battle here is between Conan and a giant spider, which lacks Howard's typical brio and energy and lapses into a lot of descriptive overwriting. Slavering jaws, sticky threads, hairy legs, etc. And it ends with Conan getting off a Hail Mary pass that feels like a brush off. Elsewhere, there are the most easily-polished-off lions in the universe and an incredibly shrinking wizard.

- This is Conan? - Early on, after meeting the Shemite slaver, we read of Conan responding to a hard jest: "He was bewildered and chagrined, and doubtless would have slunk away, abashed..." Yes, he is young, but he seems entirely too passive this time out.

- Yag-Kosha - I agree the monster as good guy element is a nice twist, but c'mon. Yag-Kosha is like Babar meets E.T. You think with a universe to travel around in, and powers well beyond our ken, he'd choose to spend his time playing Henry Higgins to a creepy magic user?

Conclusion

The best thing about "Tower Of The Elephant" is that it does complement other Conan tales, particularly the early ones. You could see it as his introduction to magic just as "Rogues In The House" introduces him to politics, the other thing in life most likely to cause Conan trouble. I just think it doesn't hold up as well as "Rogues" or any other Conan story I've read barring "Frost-Giant's Daughter" in the stand-alone department. There's some interesting things going on here, just not enough of them.

[Taranaich]

Very nice analysis, Slokes!

[quote name='Slokes' post='117174' date='Apr 10 2009, 05:02 AM']"Tower Of The Elephant" is worth reading for Conan fans, but would it be one you'd pass on to someone you wanted to introduce to Conan, or only knew him from comics and movies?[/quote]

Most assuredly, if I had to pick a single story to introduce the real Conan to, it would be "The Tower of the Elephant". It was the first Conan story I read (coming off the heels of "The Hyborian Age"), and I don't doubt that it heavily influenced the reading of the other stories for the better.

[quote]+ Rich Atmospherics - Right from the opening line, which plants you in the seediest section of an unnamed city (Roy Thomas calls it the "City of Thieves", but that can't be right. What would they name their Chamber of Commerce?)[/quote]

In a letter about TotE, Howard refers to the story taking place in "The Thief-City of Zamora". It could be a city called "The City of Thieves", but I prefer the idea that the city's name is, in fact, Zamora: presumably if this is the case the country is named after the city, as in Rome or Carthage.

[quote]+ Nice Moral Balancing Act - Early on, the amoral quality of Conan's world is garishly celebrated, with casual killings and a thieving life that obviously doesn't dote on the sufferings of its victims. But Conan grows a lot over the course of the story, particular when confronted with Yag-Kosha. Not my favorite element of the story (see below), Yag-Kosha does push a different side of Conan than the character who doesn't want to get involved, to the point where he gives up his reason for being in the Tower without a second thought[/quote]

Indeed, the fact that Conan not only doesn't immediately kill Yag-Kosha, but listens to his tale and offers his assistance shows he's more than Big Dumb Barbarian.

[quote]+ Taurus - The footpad with the padded stomach, Taurus is a riddle to me. What was going to happen with him and Conan had they found the jewel and all went according to plan? They couldn't very well split it. There's a moment of doubt on Conan's part, when Taurus asks him to have one last look around the roofline to see all is well. "[A] faint suspicion of his companion touched his wary soul" Howard writes, but its all academic soon enough. Still, Taurus's reaction to Conan, and the true nature of his partnering with this untested lad, makes me wonder, in a good way. I like the ambiguity here.[/quote]

It is indeed ambiguous: Taurus could have been planning to shaft the naive Conan, but the "honour among thieves" aspect might suggest otherwise. If Taurus was indeed planning to honour the agreement, all he'd have to do is take Conan along to the fence, and split the cash earned that way. Conan's a bit more wily than he was in GitB, but he still strikes me as a bit uneasy to civilized ways.

[quote]- Much Ado About Nothing - The story really is parked in neutral for a long time, with a long stretch of lovely atmospherics and nothing else going on. Conan seems a bystander much of the time, not only with Yag-Kosha and Yara but also with Taurus. There seems to be a need for something to kick-start Conan on his quest, but he just seems to do it on an impulse.[/quote]

I don't know, I got the impression that Conan definitely "kick-started" the quest in style by shanking the rude Kothian and going to the Tower. However, I agree he isn't quite the confident, bombastic galvaniser he is in, say, "Black Colossus": a sign of youth, perhaps.

[quote]- Lame fights - The main battle here is between Conan and a giant spider, which lacks Howard's typical brio and energy and lapses into a lot of descriptive overwriting. Slavering jaws, sticky threads, hairy legs, etc. And it ends with Conan getting off a Hail Mary pass that feels like a brush off. Elsewhere, there are the most easily-polished-off lions in the universe and an incredibly shrinking wizard.[/quote]

I quite liked the fight with the spider precisely because it's different from the usual fights. In most Conan fights, he's a whirlwind of destruction smiting slower and more ungainly foes, a frenzy of bloodshed and violence. However, this time it's Conan who's the slower one, both because of the spider's unnatural speed and the webs. As such, it's a more tense, calculating kind of fight, where Conan had to think fast and work with whatever he could. And of course there's a nice irony in the spider being slain by the very thing it was (presumably) placed to guard.

The lions I agree with, but I got the impression that the lions weren't there to be an obstacle for Conan, but rather another "colour" piece: the strangeness of why the lion didn't roar when it attacked being another alien element to add unease and weirdness to the Tower.

[quote]- This is Conan? - Early on, after meeting the Shemite slaver, we read of Conan responding to a hard jest: "He was bewildered and chagrined, and doubtless would have slunk away, abashed..." Yes, he is young, but he seems entirely too passive this time out.[/quote]

I'd say the reason was as much to do with his growing accustomed to Hyborian ways. The feral youth from GitB would doubtless have burst the Kothian's guts with his heel, but this would get him in trouble: presumably Conan's learned this the hard way. By the same token, he is not yet confident enough nor used to "discourtesy" to be able to defend himself verbally. Therefore Conan's ultimately frustrated: he can't just kill the guy, but he can't shut him up either: slinking away would be the best option for him. It's linked to the whole "transitional" aspect of the tale, for me: as you pointed out, Conan does learn much from his experiences.

[quote]- Yag-Kosha - I agree the monster as good guy element is a nice twist, but c'mon. Yag-Kosha is like Babar meets E.T. You think with a universe to travel around in, and powers well beyond our ken, he'd choose to spend his time playing Henry Higgins to a creepy magic user?[/quote]

Well, remember that he lost his wings (wonder if Clarence is from Yag?), so he couldn't exactly get back out into the cosmos. He was also tricked by Yara into captivity: as the Master of Yimsha said, "A human steeped in the dark arts is greater than a devil". Since most devils & demons of the Hyborian Age could be classified as extraterrestrials, it makes sense that a powerful and sneaky sorcerer such as Yara could imprison Yag-Kosha thus, just as Thugra Khotan had that beastly charioteer and Salome had Thaug.

[quote]The best thing about "Tower Of The Elephant" is that it does complement other Conan tales, particularly the early ones. You could see it as his introduction to magic just as "Rogues In The House" introduces him to politics, the other thing in life most likely to cause Conan trouble. I just think it doesn't hold up as well as "Rogues" or any other Conan story I've read barring "Frost-Giant's Daughter" in the stand-alone department. There's some interesting things going on here, just not enough of them.[/quote]

A very fair and interesting assessment: I may not agree with all the points, but I won't argue that it isn't well considered.

[Slokes]

A very fair and interesting assessment: I may not agree with all the points, but I won't argue that it isn't well considered.

Thanks for that, Taranaich! Being new to the Conan boards, I sort of expected disagreements to be conducted differently, with thundering denounciations and bitter blasphemies to Crom and Mitra. Like Wikipedia's discussion pages, only with a body count. But it seems that good will predominates here!

I definitely see your side to all the points you made, except for the first, about "Tower Of The Elephant" being a good first choice to introduce to someone for Conan. True, Conan is at the front and center of this story throughout, something that can not be said of "Black Colossus" or "A Witch Shall Be Born". You do get a sense of his code, that while he may be a lawbreaker he is moral. And of course, the descriptions of the Maul and the City of Thieves (you call it Zamora, Roy Thomas calls it Arenjun) are just riveting, a fine example of how Howard made his settings literally smoulder with tension and menace even when nothing was going on.

I just think of other stories that introduce Conan as well, and give you more of a story. More verbs, less adjectives. Say "Rogues Of The House" or "Iron Shadows Of The Moon". That isn't to say that I think "Tower" isn't a worthy second story to read, because I do think it has some big pluses. Some parts of it come across as weak to me, especially the ending. I do go back and forth on Yag. Today I'm more in your camp regarding his value and his position in the story, but I do feel the handling of his revenge on the sorceror Yara is contrived.

Still, if you want a story that plunges you into Hyboria, this is a very good one. Very tactile, very alive. Lot of fun things to read.

I have been reading a lot of Howard's work, and I must say, there's always something exciting or gripping in each one. Some of them are incredible, and not just the Conans. Any truly bad Howards out there?

Edited by Slokes, 19 April 2009 - 07:30 PM.

[Taranaich]

Thanks for that, Taranaich! Being new to the Conan boards, I sort of expected disagreements to be conducted differently, with thundering denounciations and bitter blasphemies to Crom and Mitra. Like Wikipedia's discussion pages, only with a body count. But it seems that good will predominates here!

Heh, well acting in such a discourteous manner would be civilized, wouldn't it?

I definitely see your side to all the points you made, except for the first, about "Tower Of The Elephant" being a good first choice to introduce to someone for Conan.

Well it would be a dull forum indeed if everyone agreed on everything. I myself am not a fan of "Rogues in the House" despite it being in at least the top ten, if not top five, of the Conan stories.

My reasoning for "Tower of the Elephant" being my gateway Conan story is actually for a lot of the reasons you state: it isn't typical Conan. I treat it as a sort of paradigm-shifting for people expecting a Conan story where Conan gets the girl or the treasure, or both, and kills the bad dude at the end. By using a Conan tale that has none of these things happen, I would hope that it would shake that cliche from people's minds, making them more open to seeing the unusual in the tales.

That said, TotE is the story I'd give to someone who was skeptical of Conan, or somewhat surprised that "I'd be into that sort of thing". To people I suspect would have come around to Conan eventually, I would probably go with the original first Conan - "The Phoenix on the Sword" - but depending on my reading of the person and their tastes, it might still be TotE.

I have been reading a lot of Howard's work, and I must say, there's always something exciting or gripping in each one. Some of them are incredible, and not just the Conans. Any truly bad Howards out there?

In my opinion, every Howard story has something to recommend, be it something substantial like a character, scene or chapter, or even a brilliant paragraph or line. He's just that good. Being a huge Howard nut it's probably to be expected that I'd say something like that, but I'm really quite hard to please when it comes to fiction. However, that's not to say that some of them are "less notable" than others - a few people would be justified in considering some stories clunkers, even Conans.

"The Vale of Lost Women" is rather unpopular for the first chapter's racial and misogynistic implications, but IMO, the second chapter's ethereal setting and weird horror is pretty evocative, and almost makes up for it. "The Man-Eaters of Zamboula" suffers a similar problem, but the fantastic Baal-pteor scene is one of the iconic Conan moments, and the Serpent Dance is pretty memorable too. And "The Devil in Iron" gets a little bit of a bad rap for some reason, but it has some really good horror, cosmic and "haunted house" as Strom puts it, plus a great villain.

[guilalah]

I re-read 'TotE' yesterday; I noticed the spiders jaws clicked together like castenets. Leiber develops that idea in 'Bazaare of the Bizarre', when the Mouser thinks a big, caged spider clicking it's jaws is a nymphy gal shaking a castenet.

[amster]

"Tower Of The Elephant" is worth reading for Conan fans, but would it be one you'd pass on to someone you wanted to introduce to Conan, or only knew him from comics and movies?

Most assuredly, if I had to pick a single story to introduce the real Conan to, it would be "The Tower of the Elephant". It was the first Conan story I read (coming off the heels of "The Hyborian Age"), and I don't doubt that it heavily influenced the reading of the other stories for the better.?)

Same here. I would venture to guess that for most of us here who were too young for the Lancers and got introduced through the Ace reprints, TotE was our first real Conan story. After the lackluster and disappointing Thing in the Crypt, is was TotE that got me hopelessly hooked on the real thing.

+ Rich Atmospherics - Right from the opening line, which plants you in the seediest section of an unnamed city (Roy Thomas calls it the "City of Thieves", but that can't be right. What would they name their Chamber of Commerce?)

In a letter about TotE, Howard refers to the story taking place in "The Thief-City of Zamora". It could be a city called "The City of Thieves", but I prefer the idea that the city's name is, in fact, Zamora: presumably if this is the case the country is named after the city, as in Rome or Carthage.

I don't find anything strange about the name "City of Thieves" myself. In the real world, cities and town often have names based upon their own character or history. Perhaps the settlement began as a haven for thieves, and eventually grew into a thriving metropolis, but the original name stuck. Some real world examples:

Antwerp, Belgium: the name literally means, in Dutch, thrown hand, and its based on a local legend about a giant who exacted a toll and and chopped off the hand of those who refused to pay it. Eventually he was slain by a local hero, who in turn chopped off the giant's hand and chunked it into the river.

Puerto Rico: rich port

[deuce]

I don't find anything strange about the name "City of Thieves" myself. In the real world, cities and town often have names based upon their own character or history. Perhaps the settlement began as a haven for thieves, and eventually grew into a thriving metropolis, but the original name stuck. Some real world examples:

Antwerp, Belgium: the name literally means, in Dutch, thrown hand, and its based on a local legend about a giant who exacted a toll and and chopped off the hand of those who refused to pay it. Eventually he was slain by a local hero, who in turn chopped off the giant's hand and chunked it into the river.

Puerto Rico: rich port

Hey Amster! You're quite right that many cities have descriptive names. Descriptive in their own language. That applies to cities like Vienne and Vienna (both derived from the P-Celtic "white fortress/town"). However, I think we're looking at a "City of Lights/Big Apple" situation here. There is NO DOUBT that Howard's TRUE name for "the City of Wonders" was VALUSIA. There are two irrefutable examples of it in the original Kull yarns. IMO, this also applies to Zamora. Check out THIS thread:
http://www.conan.com...?showtopic=4202

[PFunkJAzz]

I don't find anything strange about the name "City of Thieves" myself. In the real world, cities and town often have names based upon their own character or history. Perhaps the settlement began as a haven for thieves, and eventually grew into a thriving metropolis, but the original name stuck. Some real world examples:

Antwerp, Belgium: the name literally means, in Dutch, thrown hand, and its based on a local legend about a giant who exacted a toll and and chopped off the hand of those who refused to pay it. Eventually he was slain by a local hero, who in turn chopped off the giant's hand and chunked it into the river.

Puerto Rico: rich port

Here in So Cal, we have City of Industry and City of Commerce. Both house retail, warehousing and manufacturing concerns.

[Kortoso]

Olongapo, in the Phillipine Islands, means "the place where we found his head".

[Yar Afzal]

This story was great for me because everything happened as I would have written it. I was satisfied with every detail and how all of the situations were resolved. I knew in my mind that Taurus would die to some weird horror like a big spider (Zamora with it's black haired women and towers of spider haunted mystery), and that when Yag-Kosha said that Conan's way would be clear, I knew that the guards below would be dead and not just asleep or something (This is Howard after all!).

Edited by Yar Afzal, 27 July 2009 - 08:19 AM.

[MilkManX]

This is an all time classic for me. 10/10

There is what 3 different comic adaptations for a reason!

Its a great intro to young Conan,Howard's views on civilization and quite a backstory of the Hyborian age.

The imagery is great and I love the characterization in here.

Nothing much more to add other than that!

[deuce]

Mal reviews TTotE over at Grognardia:

http://grognardia.bl...f-elephant.html

[duaneshadow]

I just pickedup the Conan Saga #2 with the BWS and RT adaptation in today from a charity shop. I love the story, but the adaptation fills me with dread for the rest of teh comics in the DH series Thomas is going to be involved in.

[theagenes]

There was a bold-eyed Brythunian wench, sitting on the knee of a tawny-haired Gunderman ? a wandering mercenary soldier, a deserter from some defeated army.

I always wondered if the Gunderman mercenary here might not be the first appearance of Nestor, as the "Nestor synopsis" does seem to be following TotE, with it's mention of the Maul. The Gunderman from RitH, if it is Nestor, is also described as a deserter.

[Taranaich]

I think it could go either way. On the one hand, describing a Gunderland deserter in two thief tales in short succession is too close to be coincidence, and describing the TotE and Nestor as mercenaries implies a connection. On the other hand, though, it isn't unlikely that following a bad defeat, there might be quite a few Gunderland deserters, all of whom being different individuals.

So the Gunderland deserters in TotE and RitH, and Nestor, could be one and the same... or they could all be different. I dunno.