24 replies to this topic

[Taranaich]

Olgerd Vladislav has always been rather a puzzle to me, as most Hyborian names are of Romance-language origin, yet we have a Kothian Voivode and a mysterious figure named Olgerd Vladislav. His origin is never really stated, although he is referred to as Zaporoskan, the Kozak company he is most affiliated with. However, Howard's Kozaks are meant to be the disenfranchised Free Companion mercenaries of many nations.

So where was Olgerd Vladislav come from? I can think of a few theories, though none of them are really satisfying:

Vladislav was Zamorian. Yara from The Tower of the Elephant has a Slavic name, also a very common family name in Moscow, and the Eastern European mileu kind of fits with Zamora. However, the Zamorians are generally thought of as more Romany than Russian, and the other Zamorian mentioned, Shevatas, is more Spanish than anything else.

Or Vladislav was Hyperborean. This is *quite* a long shot, but Hyperborea is said to have mixed with Hyborian, Nordic, Zamorian and Hyrkanian blood, meaning a large amount of demographics could have evolved in its cities. I personally think it could be possible that there's a sort of mixed area

Having scoured the internet, I found a few interesting historical Olgerds and Vladislavs:
Algirdas, "Olgierd" in Russian, was a medieval Duke of Lithuania who forged a vast empire from the Baltic States to the Black Sea, and almost to Moscow itself.
Ladislaus I of Hungary, a heroic king with a number of legends to his name.
There were also a large number of Ladislaus who were kings and Grand Dukes of Bohemia, Poland, Hungary and other Medieval states.

Again, the theory needs a lot of work, but does anyone have any theories (or indeed proof) about the origins of our favourite Zaporoskan dog?

[Rusty Burke]

So where was Olgerd Vladislav come from?

kozak = Cossack. I believe you will find some interesting food for thought in the Wikipedia article on the Cossacks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack

Rusty

[deuce]

Readin' my mind, Taranaich, readin' my mind. I've been ponderin' ol' Olgerd this past noinden and now you've goaded me into action. As you've pointed out, "Olgerd Vladislav" is a straight-up Russian name. It's not even "Russianate", like "Zarono" is "Hispanate". So, it would seem REH was pretty emphatic on that. I can't place the exact yarn ("Devil", maybe?), but I distinctly recall Howard writing that the kozaki were "forming a new race on the banks of the Zaporoska", or some such thing. Now, Olgie is said to be a big man. Howard stated (CoC, p.377) that the Hyperboreans were "the tallest of the Hyborian races."

Where do all these data lead us (or leave us)?
As to Zamora and Yara, this is what I think: To me, Zamora will always be "The Gypsy Kingdom". Howard expressly linked Zamorans to Gypsies in "The Hyborian Age" essay. >>Non-PC Alert!<< Its people are sly and thievish, though good craftsmen and tough fighters if backed into a corner. Zamorans don't seem to be very tall in stature, either. I think that REH also layered a good deal of "The Arabian Nights" and post-colonial Mexico on top of what I'm sure was his very limited knowledge of Romany culture.
The name "Yara" could have two explanations, IMO:
Explanation one: Howard made it up. While possible, I don't find this very satisfying. Contrary to what so many Conan fans seem to think, Howard "made up" very few names in his Conan yarns (as opposed to his Kull/Thurian Age tales).
Explanation two: Yara was Hyperborean. Like you said, Taranaich, his name appears to be Russian (more on Russian/Hyperborean names below). A parallel with REH's "The Fire of Asshurbanipal" presents itself. In that yarn, the sorceror Xuthltan comes from the west to the court of the Assyrian kings. He comes bearing a magical jewel and proceeds to dominate the Assyrian court. BTW, I believe Xuthltan came from Xuthltan/Stregoicavar, Hungary. Besides Xuthltan, Yara also reminds me of Rasputin. Yara was "tall" and "spare" (sound like the "tall" and "gaunt" Hyperboreans?), just like Rasputin. They both liked their drugs (and their drugs liked them ) and both dominated their sovereigns.

Olgerd's Russian name: Howard doesn't give many examples of Hyperborean names. The one instance is "King Tomar" (CoC, p.418). The Tomar family did hold a coat-of-arms under the old Russian Empire. With that to go on, I think we can say that at least most Hyperboreans carried Russian-style names. That said, I think Conan (who loathed Hyperboreans) would have said something to Olgerd if he were actually Hyperborean-born (or then again, maybe not, biding his time). My theory is that Olgerd was a product of the kozaki "new race". His Hyperborean-born father gave him a good Hyperborean name. His mother could have been...whatever.

"voivode": Constantius' title has bothered me ever since I looked it up in junior high. Even then, I was pretty sure that the Kothians had a kinda "Byzantine" thing goin' on. So where did this Slavic title (meaning "ruler", "general" or "captain", depending) come from? One thing to consider is the close ties between Constantinople and medieval Russia. The Byzantines hired Slavic mercenaries and there were plenty of Greeks wandering around medieval Russia. However, REH doesn't really allude to a Kothian-Hyperborean connection, so it's just a thought. My theory is that Constantius wandered up into Hyperborea, became the voivode of a Hyperborean free company (medieval Russia hired lots of mercenaries), and eventually ended up in Khauran. His Hyperborean stint might explain some of his exceptional depravity/sadism (though the Kothians don't appear to be total slouches in that area, either).

Well, Taranaich, I hope my musings have helped you out a little.

Edited by deuce, 14 December 2006 - 09:10 PM.

[Rusty Burke]

How about Brythunian? We know that Howard based his Hyborian peoples on historical ones. The kozaki are Cossacks (as the Wikipedia article says, the original name for this people was probably Ukrainian kozak). The "Zaporozhian Host" would seem to be the likeliest source for "Zaporoskans". This host, we are told, grew up on the southern steppes of the Ukraine -- just where Howard locates the kozaki on the northwest frontier of Turan. The Zaporozhian ranks were full of "Ruthenian boyar-nobility" and "runaway peasants from Poland-Lithuania." Ruthenia comprised a territory consisting of parts of what are now Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, northeastern Slovakia and eastern Poland -- much of the area that seems to be covered on Howard's map by Brythunia and the northern reaches of Zamora. We know at least one other Brythunian name: Natala, of "Xuthal of the Dusk." This is a variant of Natalia, a name that may not be of Slavic derivation but is nonetheless widespread among those peoples. (Try a Google search for "Natala" and "Natalia" and check out the majority of the surnames.)

In the deep background of all this we detect REH's early interest in Eastern European history -- don't have it to hand at the moment (since I'm at the office), but in an early letter to Adventure magazine he asked a number of questions about the Slavs.

It seems to me rather likely that Olgerd Vladislav was a renegade boyarin of Brythunia.

Rusty

[Kortoso]

We don?t know much about what Brythunians are ?supposed? to be. It?s superimposed over a map of Poland if memory serves, it?s ?British? name notwithstanding. If we accept Brythunians as some sort of proto-Slav, then this might work.

On the other hand, what often works best in these quandaries is to see what REH might have been reading that may have inspired his shoe-horning this character into the Hyborian world. Doubtless he read stories about the Cossacks from some work, possibly Taras Bulba?

[deuce]

I would imagine that Harold Lamb's "Cossack" tales in Adventure had a lot to do with Howard's interest in Slavic matters. If you think about it, REH wrote 3 Conan yarns with strong "Cossack" elements:"Iron Shadows","Devil" and "Witch". That's two more tales than ones that had a Nordheimer component: a 3-to-1 differential.

[Almuric]

I say Hyrkanian, based on pretty much nothing at all. But it's still my guess.

[Taranaich]

[quote name='deuce' post='59147' date='Dec 14 2006, 05:47 PM']Readin' my mind, Taranaich, readin' my mind. I've been ponderin' ol' Olgerd this past noinden and now you've goaded me into action. As you've pointed out, "Olgerd Vladislav" is a straight-up Russian name. It's not even "Russianate", like "Zarono" is "Hispanate". So, it would seem REH was pretty emphatic on that. I can't place the exact yarn ("Devil", maybe?), but I distinctly recall Howard writing that the kozaki were "forming a new race on the banks of the Zaporoska", or some such thing.[/quote]

This is the major thing that kind of bothers me about the Kozaks: they are a new race, formed of many different countries: On the broad steppes between the Sea of Vilayet and the borders of the easternmost Hyborian kingdoms, a new race had sprung up in the past half-century, formed originally of fleeing criminals, broken men, escaped slaves, and deserting soldiers. They were men of many crimes and countries, some born on the steppes, some fleeing from the kingdoms in the West. They were called kozak, which means wastrel.

One possibility is that the phrase "some born on the steppes" could refer to the indigenous folk of the Zaporoska. This, however, just brings us back to the problem of where these folk came from to begin with.

[quote]Now, Olgie is said to be a big man. Howard stated (CoC, p.377) that the Hyperboreans were "the tallest of the Hyborian races."[/quote]

This did it for me too, though remember that many of Conan's foes are "as tall as the Cimmerian, though not as massive", many of them from races not normally considered tall.

[quote]Where do all these data lead us (or leave us)?
As to Zamora and Yara, this is what I think: To me, Zamora will always be "The Gypsy Kingdom". Howard expressly linked Zamorans to Gypsies in "The Hyborian Age" essay. >>Non-PC Alert!<< Its people are sly and thievish, though good craftsmen and tough fighters if backed into a corner. Zamorans don't seem to be very tall in stature, either. I think that REH also layered a good deal of "The Arabian Nights" and post-colonial Mexico on top of what I'm sure was his very limited knowledge of Romany culture.[/quote]

I agree, even accounting for the occassional tall Zamorian, I don't think there were that many tall, tough fighters in Zamora, rather relying on mercenaries or expatriates from the nearby Hyborian nations.

[quote]Explanation two: Yara was Hyperborean. Like you said, Taranaich, his name appears to be Russian (more on Russian/Hyperborean names below). A parallel with REH's "The Fire of Asshurbanipal" presents itself. In that yarn, the sorceror Xuthltan comes from the west to the court of the Assyrian kings. He comes bearing a magical jewel and proceeds to dominate the Assyrian court. BTW, I believe Xuthltan came from Xuthltan/Stregoicavar, Hungary. Besides Xuthltan, Yara also reminds me of Rasputin. Yara was "tall" and "spare" (sound like the "tall" and "gaunt" Hyperboreans?), just like Rasputin. They both liked their drugs (and their drugs liked them ) and both dominated their sovereigns.[/quote]

Not entirely sure about the idea that Yara was Hyperborean, but it's certainly possible. With the variety in Zamorian names, the country's position between major cultures, and the general despotism and culture of thievery, it's possible that there are a number of different Zamorian ethnic groups from the original Zhemri inhabitants intermingling with migrants from nearby Hyperborea, Brythunia, Corinthia, and Turan, all of which would be tainted with the nasty Zamorian penchant for stealing and sorcery. This could certainly account for Yara's height, which kind of jars with the descriptions of other Zamorians. Also, the Hyperboreans themselves have a record of mixing with slaves from Hyrkania, Nordheim and... Zamora!

[quote]Olgerd's Russian name: Howard doesn't give many examples of Hyperborean names. The one instance is "King Tomar" (CoC, p.418). The Tomar family did hold a coat-of-arms under the old Russian Empire. With that to go on, I think we can say that at least most Hyperboreans carried Russian-style names. That said, I think Conan (who loathed Hyperboreans) would have said something to Olgerd if he were actually Hyperborean-born (or then again, maybe not, biding his time). My theory is that Olgerd was a product of the kozaki "new race". His Hyperborean-born father gave him a good Hyperborean name. His mother could have been...whatever.[/quote]

This seems an interesting explanation. Perhaps his father was a Hyperborean mercenary who was one of the original Hetmen of the Kozaki. I'd say his mother could be one of the indigenous Zaporoskans, or a Vilayet Hyrkanian/Shemite.

[quote]"voivode": Constantius' title has bothered me ever since I looked it up in junior high. Even then, I was pretty sure that the Kothians had a kinda "Byzantine" thing goin' on. So where did this Slavic title (meaning "ruler", "general" or "captain", depending) come from? One thing to consider is the close ties between Constantinople and medieval Russia. The Byzantines hired Slavic mercenaries and there were plenty of Greeks wandering around medieval Russia. However, REH doesn't really allude to a Kothian-Hyperborean connection, so it's just a thought. My theory is that Constantius wandered up into Hyperborea, became the voivode of a Hyperborean free company (medieval Russia hired lots of mercenaries), and eventually ended up in Khauran. His Hyperborean stint might explain some of his exceptional depravity/sadism (though the Kothians don't appear to be total slouches in that area, either).[/quote]

This certainly makes sense. Although there isn't an implicit Hyperborea-Kothic connection mentioned, in the later stages of the Hyborian Age, Nemedia receives military aid from Hyperborea, Corinthia and Koth. Considering the mutual emnity Koth, Hyperborea and Nemedia seem to have for Aquilonia, it seems possible that the Eastern Hyborian nations were a bit friendlier to each other than the Western ones, possibly because they had the constant threat of Turan, the desert nomads and the Kozaks. Also, Koth employs a number of Shemite mercenaries: why not Hyperborean ones?

The possibility of Olgerd being Brythunian is also intriguing, but the only thing going for it is the Polish connection.

Great discussion everyone, thanks very much for your input!

[deuce]

I say Hyrkanian, based on pretty much nothing at all. But it's still my guess.

Hey Almuric! Howard provides us with about zero "Hyrkanian" names (as far as I know). That said, REH describes Turanians and Hyrkanians alike as tall and slender or short and squat (Hyrkanians intermingled with some mountain race). Olgerd is tall, muscular and bearded. Plus, Howard flat-out says Olgie is a kozak not a Hyrkanian. Howard seems to intend his Turanians/Hyrkanians to be ancestors of the Turco-Mongols. Olgerd's uber-Slavic name (it even has slav in it) doesn't seem to jibe well with REH's paradigm. Like you, though, that's just my guess.

Edited by deuce, 16 December 2006 - 05:10 AM.

[Zippo]

Olgerd Vladislav has always been rather a puzzle to me, as most Hyborian names are of Romance-language origin, yet we have a Kothian Voivode and a mysterious figure named Olgerd Vladislav. His origin is never really stated, although he is referred to as Zaporoskan, the Kozak company he is most affiliated with. However, Howard's Kozaks are meant to be the disenfranchised Free Companion mercenaries of many nations.

So where was Olgerd Vladislav come from? I can think of a few theories, though none of them are really satisfying:

Vladislav was Zamorian. Yara from The Tower of the Elephant has a Slavic name, also a very common family name in Moscow, and the Eastern European mileu kind of fits with Zamora. However, the Zamorians are generally thought of as more Romany than Russian, and the other Zamorian mentioned, Shevatas, is more Spanish than anything else.

Or Vladislav was Hyperborean. This is *quite* a long shot, but Hyperborea is said to have mixed with Hyborian, Nordic, Zamorian and Hyrkanian blood, meaning a large amount of demographics could have evolved in its cities. I personally think it could be possible that there's a sort of mixed area

Having scoured the internet, I found a few interesting historical Olgerds and Vladislavs:
Algirdas, "Olgierd" in Russian, was a medieval Duke of Lithuania who forged a vast empire from the Baltic States to the Black Sea, and almost to Moscow itself.
Ladislaus I of Hungary, a heroic king with a number of legends to his name.
There were also a large number of Ladislaus who were kings and Grand Dukes of Bohemia, Poland, Hungary and other Medieval states.

Again, the theory needs a lot of work, but does anyone have any theories (or indeed proof) about the origins of our favourite Zaporoskan dog?

Nice thought.
I don't believe that Vladislav was either Zamoran or Hyperborian. I consider Hyperborians to be like Finland men. On the other side, i think that he might be from nother Hyrkania or perhaps Afguli. But my strong beliefs is that he is Hyrkanian.

[Almuric]

I just realized that Marvel Comics gave Russian-esque names to Hyrkanians, so maybe that's where my theory came from. Of course, maybe he's of mixed ancestory, thus blowing all of our theories.

[deuce]

I just realized that Marvel Comics gave Russian-esque names to Hyrkanians, so maybe that's where my theory came from. Of course, maybe he's of mixed ancestory, thus blowing all of our theories.

Yeah, Roy Thomas started that with Red Sonja. He'd only been reading Howard for a few years at that time. Nowadays, he's a real, honest-to-Crom REH/HPL/CAS scholar. Look at the original "Red Son-ya" in Howard's "Shadow of the Vulture". She's from Rogatino. That's in Russia, south of Moskow. Her name is a variant of "Sonia", originally Greek, but popular amongst the Orthodox Russians. Her family was butchered and sister enslaved by Tatars, who sold Son-ya's sister to the Turks. Son-ya loathed Turks and hated her sister for "collaborating". That's why she stayed and fought at Vienna: she wanted to kill Turks. So, Roy turning the red-haired, Russian, Turk-hating spitfire into a red-haired Hyrkanian (ie,Tatar,Turk,etc...) was probably not the best call he ever made.

Let's look at Howard's The Hyborian Age essay (Coming of Conan,p.396):"(the Hyrkanians/Turanians) rode back into the mysterious east... until they rode out of the east again, thousands of years later, as Huns, Mongols, Tatars and Turks". That's straight-shootin' talk from Two-Gun Bob, not much wiggle-room. Turanians (directly descended from Hyrkanians,p.386) in REH's yarns have Turkish-style names. The one unquestionable Hyperborean name is "Tomar" (p. 418). The Tomar family were Russian nobility under the Czars. "Tomar" is not any sort of Suomi (Finnish) name, to the best of my knowledge. Nor did the medieval Finns have any cities to speak of, as the Hyperboreans (and medieval Russians) most assuredly did. So, deCamp/Carter screwed up again. "Olgerd Vladislav" is not a Hun/Mongol/Tatar/Turk name in any way, shape or form, nor is it an Afghani-style name. Those are the facts and that's my theory.

Edited by deuce, 17 December 2006 - 02:48 AM.

[PainBrush]

I think a few more nationalities that should get batted around the discussion - Finland , Belarus , Hussars , Estonians , Latvians , Kashub , Lithuania , Hungarians/Hunyadi , Boyar/Rom even Transylvanians etc. & other carpathian peoples - that ' voivode' thing can't be overlooked . At one time or another each of those were governed by different 'empires' of one level or another & the ruling classes in more than a few for centuries were quite often foreigners from very different cultures from Russians to Swedes to Germany & on & on . Not countries in major international news too much today but played important roles in history & did not go unread about by Howard . The borders of those countries were even quite different in Howards day than they are today , much less over the past 1000 years .

I can't really explain in any common-sense way why the name Olgerd Vladislav just sounds to me like he was from the northern area around those lands rather than from further south or east - it may be because of the similarity to Wladislaus/Wladyslaw - a Polish/Ukranian name , & Olgerd is a Northern Russian/Ukrainian name used right up into Finland & Sweden . I grew up in a Polish American household , in a Polish/Ukrainian neighborhood (where all the schools were named ' Copernicus High ' 'Kosciuszko Middle School' 'St. Ladislaus' & ST Florian ) - with Yugo , Albanian , Hungarian & Czech freinds ( & even knew some Romany-Gypsies ) I went to 2 of those schools myself . & although I can't claim to have any 'fluency' in all those - you get a definite 'feel' for the names & languages & a passing understanding ( a whole LOT of colorful cuss-words !! ) I would say Howard intended Olgerd V. to be generally Russian - in the sense of the Ukraine & Northern peoples rather than Hyrkanian/Turkish or Eastern/Tatar/Mongol/Siberian-Russian peoples .

This has nothing to do with anything but have any of you seen the Borat movie yet ? The character Borats supposed to be from Kazakhstan - but Sacha Cohen being ( I believe ) Polish-Jewish - his "Kazakhstany" language is hilariously - not that anyone would notice - Polish , with the usual "Jagshemash/Jak sie masj" ( which means how are you from Poland to the Uighurs - but in Uzbeki means "not well" ) " Jin Dobre" " Jinkuya/Dzienkuje"(thank you) etc. It was funny watching it because when he wasn't speaking broken English he was speaking alleged 'Kazak" but really Polish , there were Spanish subtitles flashing on the screen the whole movie & when he spoke 'Kazakh' to another 'Kazakh' you had to quickly read the subtitled English , it was hilarious chaos . Great movie - not for the easily offended though !!

[deuce]

Loved the movie. One of the best "documentaries" ever made, IMO. Cohen is a Jewish-Brit (not that it matters).

[PainBrush]

Yeah I knew he was from England I've been an Ali G. & Borat fan for years - I was just making the point that his Polish was very fluent & so I assume his family has some history there originally maybe . It added greatly to the humor the nonsensical stuff he was saying in Polish that didn't have a lot to do with whatever he was talking about . I read that the stuff he was also saying in Hebrew was supposed to be even funnier & more nonsensical . I haven't been able however to find any discs by Corky Bujek doing bing-bong-bing-bong-bing hahaha . It's hilarious that he catches hell for his movie being 'anti-semitic' & he's Jewish himself . I guess that says something about his talent that maybe some folks really think he's a Kazakhstan with no clues as to the rest of the world . I thought the funniest parts of the movie ( God forgive me...) - was the "Running of the Jews" & when him & his director pal are doing the frightened night-vision whispered "Blair-Witch" thing at the bed & breakfast & they start freaking out & tossing dollar bills at the 2 roaches so they could make their escape - I laughed until my face hurt . For the world of me I can't picture anyone being daft enough to not see the intended parody of anti-semitism in that ! His entire humor is based on being able to see through stuff like that & be able to laugh not just at but with each other . When he went up to the woman at her yard-sale & asked her if it was her gypsy treasures & told her " Don't you shrink me Gypsy lady ! " was another rib-hurter .

sorry off topic again . back to Olgerd .
I just re-read all the posts from the beginning & it's kind of funny to think a bunch of "barbarian-story' fans ( as people who don't know any different than that might assume ) - are so well read on history & cultures & even language/etymology . I think even Howard would be mildly surprised to think that one of his more minor characters ( oxymoron?) - raised so many questions & analysis - I think he intended the character just as he seems to all of us - we all have a 'pretty good' idea of who/what Olgerd was supposed to be - but not 'exactly' , there's a little bit of leeway in the reading - genius !

[deuce]

Just reread "Witch" last night. Noticed a few more things. Olgie swore by Mitra, was grey-eyed, lean and as tall as Conan (Bloody Sword, p.270).

Bori was the primal god of the Hyperboreans (and all of the Hyborian tribes) three thousand years before Conan. REH gives no direct evidence as to whom the Hyperboreans worshipped in Conan's time. My personal opinion is that Mitra worship became widespread amongst the Hyborian nations (including Hyperborea) after the fall of Acheron. Some, like Koth and Corinthia (and Zingara?) fell away later on. Olgie's (nominal) Mitra worship (along with his Russian-style name) points (IMO) to his heritage being Hyperborean (or maybe Brythunian), at least on his father's side.

Howard appears to have considered his Hyperboreans to be amongst the "purest" of the Hyborian nations (the Gundermen holding top honors). However, as Taranaich has pointed out, the Hyperboreans did take slaves (including Conan), "diluting" their Hyborian blood somewhat. That said, Olgerd's grey eyes, lean build and very tall stature (the Hyperboreans were the tallest of the Hyborian races) indicate, once again, Hyperborean heritage.

Olgerd (p.285):"You scum of the western hills..." (referring to Conan).
Conan (p.286):"I understand them (the Zuagir) better than you, and they, me; because I am a barbarian too".

Now I think this exchange could (plausibly) be interpreted this way:
Olgie could have quizzed Conan on his background during their long evenings of friendly badinage. Here's another explanation: Cimmeria shares a small slice of border with Hyperborea. According to Howard, Cimmerians are chronic raiders (just like their Gaelic descendants). I'm sure that the long-civilized Hyperboreans looked upon their rapacious, hill-dwelling neighbors as "scum". Olgerd could be venting long-standing ethnic/racial animosity .
"I am a barbarian too": If being born in a seitch of the kozaki doesn't make you a barbarian, what does? Now, Conan (and Howard) could be looking upon Olgerd like the "feral dog" Rangers of the Pictish frontier, "lapsed" sons of civilized men: though born to woodcraft and carnage, they don't have a thousand generations of barbarity behind them. Another explanation is that Olgerd was originally civilized (ie., from Hyperborea or Brythunia).

The longer I look at this question, the more I tend toward the view that Olgerd was Hyperborean, possibly the outcast son of a noble house. My two rubles.

Edited by deuce, 12 January 2007 - 07:12 AM.

[keny from prague]

I just realized that Marvel Comics gave Russian-esque names to Hyrkanians, so maybe that's where my theory came from. Of course, maybe he's of mixed ancestory, thus blowing all of our theories.

Yeah, Roy Thomas started that with Red Sonja. He'd only been reading Howard for a few years at that time. Nowadays, he's a real, honest-to-Crom REH/HPL/CAS scholar. Look at the original "Red Son-ya" in Howard's "Shadow of the Vulture". She's from Rogatino. That's in Russia, south of Moskow.

just a quick friendly correction. Rogatino is south of St Petersburg. In fact, although Sonya is clearly russian, im not even sure if that region was part of Russia proper before peter the great. In fact, an argument could be made for Sonya being of Baltic stock.

Not that it has any impact on the discussion on Olgerd:-)

[deuce]

Hi
I am a Conan fan from way back. Have read the original material, pastiches and SSOC.
There is no mystery regarding the origins ogf Olgerd Vladislav. He was no Hyborian or Hyrkanian for that matter.
REH described described Olgerd as a Zaporoskan in his Conan yarn ‘ A Witch Shall Be Born ‘.
“ ‘ If I could come down from this beam I’d make a dying dog out of you, you Zaporoskan thief! ‘ he rasped through blackened lips. “
Note that Conan did not call Olgerd a Zamoran or Hyperborean thief, and we all know about Conan’s grudge against Hyperborians. Olgerd is further described as a kozaki of the Zaporoskan River.
Olgerd had this to say about himself “ Once I was a hetman on the Zaporoska; now I’m a desert chief. “
Also, trying to liken Olgerd’s physical description of him being tall and gaunt to having somehow a Hyperborean origin makes no sense. For one thing, REH has this to say in his essay The Hyborian Age
“ The ancient kingdom of Hyperborea is one aloof than the others, yet there is alien blood in plenty in its veins, from the capture of foreign women – Hyrkanians, Aesir, and Zamorians. “ That rules out using the giant Hyperborean renegade from “ The Tower Of The Elephant “ as some kind of racial standard. For all we know, the fellow might have had some Hyrkanian blood in his veins. It would be like saying that the blond Brythunian Natala was really an Aesir because of the colour of her locks. Sound ridiculous ?
For another thing, if Olgerd was Hyperborean we should find a prolification of Slavic sounding names across all the Hyborian nations, and yet we do not. That was never part of REH’s plan.
Olgerd is the only character with a truly ( undisputed - maybe Ivga of Khauran from A Witch Shall Be Born ) Slavic sounding name ( no Yara here ) coming from a Slavic sounding region in the eastern parts of the Hyborian Age world.
In the end Olgerd Vladislav is what REH says he is. Zaporoskan. Nuff said.

So, where did you get the idea to start posting in "bold", Bront? Doing so makes it difficult (but not impossible) for anyone to quote/reply to your posts. Feel free to post in standard font like the rest of us mere mortals from now on.

[Halfdane]

For what it's worth, there is another new race mentioned in a Conan tale. Who are they? Aquilonians, to a man. The woodsmen in Beyond the Black River. This demonstrates that to Howard, a "new race" could also be homogenous.

Whatever their name, there probably was an original "kozak" group that lived relatively unaffected by the Hyborians and the Hyrkanians. But we know that the distance between these two great powers shrank, and pressed in on kozak territory. The Hyrkanians, especially: during Yezdigerd's reign he pushed ever westward with his swords.

The turbulence apparently resulted in a great many refugees, who found homes among the people of the wild steppe frontier.

In this case I think new means an original race with an admixture of all sorts of Eastern and Western strains.