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Map Of The Seven Empires (Howard Days '07)


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#1 deuce

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Posted 11 July 2007 - 04:54 AM

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Here's the version of my Seven Empires map that I used at my Howard Days presentation on the Thurian Age. It depicts the Empires as they were in Kull's time, not right before the Cataclysm. It's not exactly where I want it, but it's very close. Feel free to comment/question/disparage. :) My Thurian Age world map will be posted shortly.

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#2 Primeval

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 07:05 AM

Hey Deuce, thanks for sharing that. I am not versed enough to know what to comment on in terms of accuracy, but I do follow you and Dale discussing the Thurian Age and enjoy the work you both do on it!

Maybe if they do some Kull pastiches your map will be the one in the books :)

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#3 deuce

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 07:11 AM

Thanks, Primeval. I'm just hoping that the new DH Kull doesn't go in some crazy direction. It could happen. Very easily. I'm working on several new "TA" maps right now.

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#4 Primeval

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Posted 12 July 2007 - 07:17 AM

Thanks, Primeval. I'm just hoping that the new DH Kull doesn't go in some crazy direction. It could happen. Very easily. I'm working on several new "TA" maps right now.


I'll look forward to seeing the others! I am hoping the DH Kull will be worthwhile - I no longer buy the DH Conan, but I will give Kull a try and see what they do with it anyway.

"Roll on me like a flood, now, if ye dare! Before your viper fangs drink my life I will reap your multitudes like ripened barley - of your severed heads will I build a tower and of your mangled corpses will I rear up a wall!" - Bran Mak Morn in "Worms of the Earth"


#5 Mondas

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 12:21 AM

I am looking at you map and I notice that what I thought was water east of gronder is land on your map. How does your map compare with europe?? do you have a comparasian map??
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#6 deuce

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 12:32 AM

I am looking at you map and I notice that what I thought was water east of gronder is land on your map. How does your map compare with europe?? do you have a comparasian map??


The lands east of the Stagus River aren't filled-in for two reasons. The first is that the map is mainly concerned with the Seven Empires. The second reason is that REH gave very little information about that area.

As for Europe and a comparison map, there are latitude and longitude lines on my map. Zero longitude runs through Greenwich, England. The black dot west of the Camoonian Desert is the site of the city of Valusia. That is (more-or-less) where the north Italian city of Bergamo exists now.

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#7 Mondas

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 12:53 AM

It's the best map I have seen for the thurian landmas so far. So I guess Alantis would be the Greenland and Iceland area?
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#8 deuce

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 01:05 AM

It's the best map I have seen for the thurian landmas so far. So I guess Alantis would be the Greenland and Iceland area?


Thanks Mondas. Actually, Atlantis runs just south of Iceland (which didn't exist in the Thurian Age, IMO), just west of Ireland, broadening out in the area of the Azores Islands and continuing a little way south. The Howard Days version of my Thurian Age worldmap (I'm working on a new one) is up at David "ironmammoth" Drage's "dialpforpulp" podcast site. Hope that helps.

http://www.dialpforpulp.com

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#9 Mondas

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 01:13 AM

WHere is it at in the podcast site?
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#10 deuce

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 01:16 AM

WHere is it at in the podcast site?


It's in the "Howard Days PDF Slideshow" section, as I recall. It's the only map, the rest are photos.

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#11 Arvid Nelson

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 01:41 PM

Deuce, this map is terrific! Orders of magnitude better than that other version that's floating around on the internet...


http://www.dodgenet....lossom/Katl.htm

A few questions--

You put Verulia partly between Zarfhaana and Valusia? Interesting... I don't see why not. I always thought Zarfhaana and Valusia were totally adjacent. But I just re-read Riders Beyond the Sunrise and the way you did it makes perfect sense...

Where would you put the Pictish Isles? Lemuria?

The Lost Lands... I always imagined them a little bit closer to Valusia... I think of them as being "very far south", based on an essay by Dale Rippke, and the World's End being "very far east".

Just curious! I've been mapping Thuria in my head for a very long time. :)
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#12 Arvid Nelson

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 01:43 PM

I am hoping the DH Kull will be worthwhile -


Me too! :)

EDIT: No, we won't be taking it in any crazy directions... I mean, Kull won't be battling space aliens or anything like that. Don't get me wrong, we're going to have to make some changes to the source material, and we're going to HAVE to fill in a lot of blanks. But my guiding principle will always be "WWREHD?" The extent I can keep the story true to his spirit is the extent to which it will succeed.

Edited by Arvid Nelson, 13 March 2008 - 01:55 PM.

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#13 deuce

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 03:25 PM

Deuce, this map is terrific! Orders of magnitude better than that other version that's floating around on the internet...
http://www.dodgenet....lossom/Katl.htm


Thanks, Arvid :) I spent a couple of months on the research and a couple of hours actually drawing it. Those art classes finally paid off. ;)
Actually, there are four or five other maps out there. However, Tim Kirk's is definitely the best executed.

A few questions--
You put Verulia partly between Zarfhaana and Valusia? Interesting... I don't see why not. I always thought Zarfhaana and Valusia were totally adjacent. But I just re-read Riders Beyond the Sunrise and the way you did it makes perfect sense...


Verulia is THE albatross around the neck of just about every Thurian Age map out there. For some reason, just about everyone who's done such a map has placed Verulia south of Valusia. KEW even did so in The Road of Kings. "Riders" makes such a placement impossible. I had to place Verulia so close to the city of Valusia in order to agree with Swords of the Purple Kingdom. In that yarn, it's strongly implied that the Verulian border is half a night's horse-ride from the Valusian capital.

Where would you put the Pictish Isles? Lemuria?


To me, there's little doubt that the Sunset Isles are where the Rockies/Cascades are now. REH probably got the idea from Allen's The Prehistoric World (the text is online).
Lemuria is quite a bit tougher, but I'm still thinking that the archipelago is anchored on the east by the Hawaiian islands and on the west by Ponape/the Carolinas. I've got my provisional Thurian world-map up at
http://www.dialpforpulp.com

The Lost Lands... I always imagined them a little bit closer to Valusia... I think of them as being "very far south", based on an essay by Dale Rippke, and the World's End being "very far east".
Just curious! I've been mapping Thuria in my head for a very long time. :)


Well, since the "Lost Lands" are only mentioned once, there isn't much to go on, is there? :rolleyes: For various nebulous reasons (including some of Howard's poems) I place the Lost Lands basically where the modern Middle East is now.
As for World's End, I see the Stagus as being the northern extension of the later Styx (rerouted during the Cataclysm). It doesn't take Kull and his Slayers all that long to ride from eastern Valusia to the eastern border of Grondar. I give my reasoning for a lot of my placements on The Shadow Kingdom thread:

http://www.conan.com...?showtopic=3713 (Post#4). Hope that helps.
BTW, I drafted my first "Thurian Age" map 20+yrs ago. Still got it. :)

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#14 Zula

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 06:56 PM

NIce map....I love maps...I never thought to think there wold be anything beyond Grondar...and for some reason the thought that it was the farthest realm has occupied my midn for some time.....but then again, if Howard never created a map of the Thurian continent.....hmmm!
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#15 Primeval

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 07:48 AM

Don't get me wrong, we're going to have to make some changes to the source material...

(emphasis on "have" mine)

I'll be giving the Kull series a shot, but that statement always bothers me. May I ask why?


...and we're going to HAVE to fill in a lot of blanks.


I'll look forward to that, we never got much of Kull's life before he was king from Marvel. I like your attitude of keeping with what Howard would do with the character - the main issue I have with pastiche is when it blatantly contradicts the source material.

Sorry off topic on maps! I look forward to seeing the full map fleshed out Deuce!

Edited by Primeval, 30 April 2008 - 07:49 AM.

"Roll on me like a flood, now, if ye dare! Before your viper fangs drink my life I will reap your multitudes like ripened barley - of your severed heads will I build a tower and of your mangled corpses will I rear up a wall!" - Bran Mak Morn in "Worms of the Earth"


#16 korak

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 01:32 AM

Great looking map, Deuce! That is the one thing I missed in the new Del Rey Kull was a good map. I have always thought Tim Kirk's was the best previous version also, both in terms of accuracy and in terms of artistic attractiveness.

BTW, I just looked at the Kull map in Kull the Conqueror #2, and it dates Kull to 18,000 BC! Wonder where they came up with that? I don't think that DeCamp ever dated Kull's period, at least that I can find, and they could have read Kings of the Night in the Dell Bran Mak Morn paperback for Howard's dating. I wonder if there is some dating in the Conan stories that connects with the sinking of Atlantis.

All these years I have thought that Kull was in 18,000 BC. For some weird reason I didn't really notice the references in Kings of the Night.

#17 deuce

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 06:18 AM

Great looking map, Deuce! That is the one thing I missed in the new Del Rey Kull was a good map. I have always thought Tim Kirk's was the best previous version also, both in terms of accuracy and in terms of artistic attractiveness.


Thanks, Korak. Sincerely. :) As I posted earlier, I first did "my" version of a Thurian Age map back when I was 18-19yrs old. Such things have always intrigued me. Being invited to Howard Days 2007 by Leo Grin really made me "bite the bullet" and get something (more accurate) down on paper. I can definitely see why a map wasn't included in the Del Rey Kull, since REH never made a map of the Thurian Age realms. I've given Mr. Kirk "props" several times. IMO, he is one of the "underappreciated" REH artists.
BTW, Howard appears to have been one of the very first fantasy authors to have devised a map for his created eras/worlds.

BTW, I just looked at the Kull map in Kull the Conqueror #2, and it dates Kull to 18,000 BC! Wonder where they came up with that? I don't think that DeCamp ever dated Kull's period, at least that I can find, and they could have read Kings of the Night in the Dell Bran Mak Morn paperback for Howard's dating. I wonder if there is some dating in the Conan stories that connects with the sinking of Atlantis.
All these years I have thought that Kull was in 18,000 BC. For some weird reason I didn't really notice the references in Kings of the Night.


Well, they were probably "back-dating" from the (inaccurate) "10,000BC" date supplied by LSdC, and then using the (inaccurate) Hyborian Age essay to calculate how far to "back-date" from THERE. I noticed the "100,000 years" quote when I bought a copy of Worms of the Earth in Denver, back when I was fifteen (along with Hadon of Ancient Opar). Some people notice different things.

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#18 korak

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 07:28 AM

Well, they were probably "back-dating" from the (inaccurate) "10,000BC" date supplied by LSdC, and then using the (inaccurate) Hyborian Age essay to calculate how far to "back-date" from THERE. I noticed the "100,000 years" quote when I bought a copy of Worms of the Earth in Denver, back when I was fifteen (along with Hadon of Ancient Opar). Some people notice different things.



I am curious why you say the Hyborian Age essay is inaccurate. it seems to match with the dating of the fall of Acheron in Hour of the Dragon...

As for a Kull map, you know, there is a lot of material in these Del Rey editions that are NOT by REH. I think it would be of historical and scholarly interest to put things in the appendixes such as material from the first edition of Kull, such as the Carter fragment completions and a Kull map (though perhaps not the Carter version as being too simplistic.) It is very typical of Penguin classics to sometimes include appendixes with such things from early editions.

I wonder if Dark Horse is going to develop a map for the Kull comic? Maybe they can use yours!

#19 Primeval

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 01:51 PM

[As for a Kull map, you know, there is a lot of material in these Del Rey editions that are NOT by REH. I think it would be of historical and scholarly interest to put things in the appendixes such as material from the first edition of Kull, such as the Carter fragment completions and a Kull map (though perhaps not the Carter version as being too simplistic.) It is very typical of Penguin classics to sometimes include appendixes with such things from early editions.


Although I wouldn't mind seeing the Carter and DeCamp stuff (even though I have major issues with some of it) reprinted, I don't want to see it in a version that is supposed to be the original REH texts - I bought the Del Rey editions specifically because they were devoid of DeCamp and Carter.

Perhaps there could be a book or books with completed stories from DeCamp and Carter and whoever else, and include not only Conan stories (unless there are enough to comprise one book) but also the Kull completions as well as any others (did any Bran or Cormac fragments get completed?)

Maybe a series of reprints of Conan pastiches with several books by the same author in one, like they have done for some of the Jordan stuff?

The Bran pastiches could easily comprise a single volume, Cormac would probably take a couple since there were more (5? 6?). Maybe the Red Sonja series could even be collected.

Despite my personal reservations with some of the pastiches, I still think it would be neat to have a complete library of all the material available featuring Kull, Conan, Bran Mak Morn, and Cormac Mac Art.

"Roll on me like a flood, now, if ye dare! Before your viper fangs drink my life I will reap your multitudes like ripened barley - of your severed heads will I build a tower and of your mangled corpses will I rear up a wall!" - Bran Mak Morn in "Worms of the Earth"


#20 korak

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 08:08 PM

Although I wouldn't mind seeing the Carter and DeCamp stuff (even though I have major issues with some of it) reprinted, I don't want to see it in a version that is supposed to be the original REH texts - I bought the Del Rey editions specifically because they were devoid of DeCamp and Carter.

Perhaps there could be a book or books with completed stories from DeCamp and Carter and whoever else, and include not only Conan stories (unless there are enough to comprise one book) but also the Kull completions as well as any others (did any Bran or Cormac fragments get completed?)

Maybe a series of reprints of Conan pastiches with several books by the same author in one, like they have done for some of the Jordan stuff?

The Bran pastiches could easily comprise a single volume, Cormac would probably take a couple since there were more (5? 6?). Maybe the Red Sonja series could even be collected.

Despite my personal reservations with some of the pastiches, I still think it would be neat to have a complete library of all the material available featuring Kull, Conan, Bran Mak Morn, and Cormac Mac Art.



Right, I have some reservations too, of course. I didn't mean put them into the Howard text like in the Lancer books, but rather, had them isolated in an appendix for historical interest only. I wasn't referring to pastiches, just to fragment completions, such as in King Kull. I realize, though, that DeCamp complicated that whole issue by revising completed stories (Black Stranger) and Conanizing non-Conan REH stories (Hawks over Shem, etc.) So maybe it would be too much to attempt at that.

You are probably right that they should do another compilation of DeCamp and Carter. Tor already did the three Bantam "New Conan Series" novels in both hardbacks and in a trade omnibus, which is cool because it contains the sixty page Conan dictionary that DeCamp made. But they need to do another one compiling three or four of the early novels, like Buccaneer/Avenger/Isles, etc.