104 replies to this topic

[Taranaich]

The Auroch does seem a good possibility, especially considering "modern" cows were domesticated long after the Hyborian Age. Wouldn't it be ironic if aurochs were the feral survivors of the original Bos Hyboriensis, originally domesticated from an even bigger, meaner cattle still found in the northern lands?

... We aren't really on PETA's sights, are we Mikey? After the problems we already have with Conan the Destroyer and all..

[PainBrush]

Ah , p.e.t.a. schmeeta ! Ever see what a bull does to those redneck rodeo guys ?!! & The rodeo clowns too !

Let's get rid of all the vegans while we're at it . I'm having a big bloody rare steak as I'm typing this . This cow here , he used to be a 'vegan' too , didn't do him much good though did it ?!?!

[Mike_The_Barbarian]

Here's a question, how do you think he would have broken the neck of the bull? From the look of that YouTube video, that bull seemed (almost) fine after having it's neck far past the point where I thought it would have broken...

So how could Conan actually break it's neck by twisting it while it's raging around...And if you're trying to get food or whatever, would you really twist it into submission like on that YouTube video, and then have to struggle clumsily to twist it even more until it broke?


Mike

P.S. I'm against animal cruelty, just so you know. But I do understand the need to eat and live...

[Sharn]

also , let's not forget Howard may or may not have been implying a wild 'Auroch' not the modern day bulls that have been 'domesticated' & bred down to manageable sizes ( but not really 'tamed' totally I guess) They were still around in the far northern areas of Europe until the 1600's when the last one died in captivity . They grew to about generally twice the size in overall mass to any of the biggest bulls you've ever seen tossing rednecks at the rodeo !! Picture a buffalo crossed with a big bull & double the size ! - Well you've all seen the cave paintings in France I'm sure of aurochs tossing bow & spear weilding men way up in the air .

You need to take a look at limousine bulls, They are quite huge. Granted Aurochs made 2 meters at the withers, there are some (modern)bulls that are very near that in height and very possibly are longer and heavier than a historic Aurochs.

Also, cattle weren't bred down in size to make them more manageable, temperment played more of a role in that. I've seen oxen(castrated bulls) who are so immensely huge that are ridiculously docile as well as bulls (my oldest brother had one, a hereford, named Sundance, that he would ride around the ranch on).

[Ironhand]

... We aren't really on PETA's sights, are we Mikey? After the problems we already have with Conan the Destroyer and all..

You mean when Conan, that brute, viciously ripped the horn clean out of the head of that poor, tormented rhinoceros-god?

[Mikey_C]

Let's get rid of all the vegans while we're at it . I'm having a big bloody rare steak as I'm typing this . This cow here , he used to be a 'vegan' too , didn't do him much good though did it ?!?!

Perhaps Conan was exaggerating and what really happened was he broke the neck of a vegan. Just a thought - on with the serious discussion...

[Taranaich]

You mean when Conan, that brute, viciously ripped the horn clean out of the head of that poor, tormented rhinoceros-god?

I was more referring to this. One of the beauties of CG: you can show horrific acts of animal cruelty with none of the guilt!

It's unlikely Conan would have faced a beast like this, but I just had to post a picture of the insane Belgian Blue, a "double muscled" breed of cattle which has a genetic deficiency in producing a muscle-suppressing hormone, which results in ridiculously beefy cattle (in more ways than one):



Of course this breed probably couldn't survive in the wild due to inability to give birth normally (most have to undergo caesarian), but it does look rather like the Charles Atlas of cows!

[deuce]

You need to take a look at limousine bulls, They are quite huge. Granted Aurochs made 2 meters at the withers, there are some (modern)bulls that are very near that in height and very possibly are longer and heavier than a historic Aurochs.
Also, cattle weren't bred down in size to make them more manageable, temperment played more of a role in that. I've seen oxen(castrated bulls) who are so immensely huge that are ridiculously docile as well as bulls (my oldest brother had one, a hereford, named Sundance, that he would ride around the ranch on).

Hey Sharn! I raised a Limousine/Simmentall-cross steer for the fair my senior year. Beautiful, huge bovine. Had this awesome gold/bronze hide. I called 'im "Midas". Unfortunately, he had WAY too much "aurochs" in 'im. I had to train my two sisters' steers for the show-ring. No problem. Midas, on the other hand, was plain nuts. He dragged me n' my dad (we're both good-sized) plus two big farm-hands clear down the length of the cattle-barn when I took him to the county fair. Later, he broke loose from his stall and rampaged through the show-ring. At that point, we decided to sedate him for the duration of the fair. We ended up dragging him onto the cattle-truck on the last day. Despite the fact that everyone said he could've been a grand champion steer, I didn't make anywhere near the money on 'im because he never actually showed or was awarded a ribbon.

As for "domestication", I read in a Discover magazine article several years ago that numerous peculiarities emerge amongst domesticated animals. A Russian biologist 50+ yrs ago tried domesticating Russian foxes. Turns out that the most "domesticated" ones started to decrease in size, became "piebald" (spotted) and started to exhibit "floppy" ears. Darwin noted the same thing. It seems that the symptoms (amongst mammals) of domestication occur across a wide swath of species. Horses and cats are (arguably) two species that have never been fully domesticated.

[PainBrush]

There's a lot to what you said Deuce . I don't have a lot of experience with horses ( or bulls , or aurochs ) but I've had plenty of cats , including some really rare species like African Servals & stuff - take the meekest mildest & cuddly housecat that hasn't been 'fixed' & wave a mouse in front of it's nose before letting it go & you'll see some of that killer instinct that hasn't been totally bred out of even housecats . I've had a cat attack me for reaching down & taking away a mouse it was playing with ! Even afterwards it attacked me more on the hand with the mouse scent on it ! My damn wolfdog attacks or runs at anything including shadows that are smaller than him & he kills any animal ( one raccoon , several possums , 2 turtles ) in 'his' territory ( the backyard ) - he's only ever been raised alone just like any other dog - but those instincts are there just under the surface . There is a difference between 'domesticated' & 'tame' .

Edited by PAINBRUSH, 12 August 2007 - 03:13 AM.

[Ironhand]

I had a housecat; she was sweet as could be with people, but she hated other cats (except when she was in heat; then she would try to rape tomcats). Her name was Me-two. She was fascinated by the squirrels who lived and played in and around a tree in the vacant lot next door. She crouched in the hedge and watched those squirrels for months. Finally her day arrived. She charged the squirrels and chased them up the tree (she didn't climb the tree, she ran up the trunk like a squirrel herself). A tremendous thrashing in the leaves. Then she ran down the trunk with a squirrel in her jaws. Probably the crowning moment of her entire life. She ate the squirrel down to the hindquarters and tail, then lost interest.

Edited by Ironhand, 12 August 2007 - 03:55 AM.

[deuce]

There's a lot to what you said Deuce . I don't have a lot of experience with horses ( or bulls , or aurochs ) but I've had plenty of cats , including some really rare species like African Servals & stuff - take the meekest mildest & cuddly housecat that hasn't been 'fixed' & wave a mouse in front of it's nose before letting it go & you'll see some of that killer instinct that hasn't been totally bred out of even housecats . There is a difference between 'domesticated' & 'tame' .

Hey PB! One of my points that I tried to make (probably not very well) was that we see the least "down-sizing" in breeds where we want them to retain "atavistic" qualities. In cats, it's that killer instinct. In horses, we've always bred for size. To do that, the "Sons of Aryas" (and others) had to ignore things like independent thinking and aggressive behavior. That works really well in war-horses ( the main job for horses, for a long time). The "charge" instinct (when there are other horses facing, see Ann Hyland) is basically hard-wired. Robert Adams' Horseclans books were a litle predictable, but I always felt the "repartee" between horse and rider was pretty spot on. Anyway, there are, of course, large equines and bovines that are pretty docile. The long road from "wild" to the breeds we have today has many twists and turns. It's pretty amazing what our ancestors managed to pull off in the field of genetic manipulation without having any "lab technology".

It was my understanding that many of the aurochs skeletons were those of heifers. Aurochs bulls appear to have been truly huge (my vote for a "wild Cimmerian bull", BTW). Bovine neck structure is no joke. There's a LOT of muscle/bone there. I'm a big ol' boy, and I can tell you that I've had to twist the necks of several 200+lb steers in my time. My grandad, Allen Richardson, hard-nosed bastard that he is , liked to have me stick my fingers in a steer's nose, grab it around the head and twist it. While in that position, he'd proceed to shove a "horse-pill" down its throat with a plunger. I've heard plenty of stories from my cousin, Steve Linn. He was a nationally-ranked team-roper back in the 80s/early 90s. The only way I can see that a 15(?)yr-old Conan could've broken the neck of an aurochs, is if he'd grabbed both horns and then thrown himself off the back of the bull, throwing the bull over himself in the process. A strategically placed ravine might help.
My two lunas.

[REHfan]

You mean when Conan, that brute, viciously ripped the horn clean out of the head of that poor, tormented rhinoceros-god?

I was more referring to this. One of the beauties of CG: you can show horrific acts of animal cruelty with none of the guilt!

It's unlikely Conan would have faced a beast like this, but I just had to post a picture of the insane Belgian Blue, a "double muscled" breed of cattle which has a genetic deficiency in producing a muscle-suppressing hormone, which results in ridiculously beefy cattle (in more ways than one):



Of course this breed probably couldn't survive in the wild due to inability to give birth normally (most have to undergo caesarian), but it does look rather like the Charles Atlas of cows!

I should think that standing on the side of the bull's neck and taking hold of the snout and pulling suddenly and violently upward would do the trick. Much like snapping a rotten limb in two. 'Course, you gotta get him down first.
Just a thought from your friendly Licensed Massage Therapist...

[cimmerianbloke]

I told you in another thread, these Belgians are up to no good...

[deuce]

I told you in another thread, these Belgians are up to no good...

Yeah CB, but they have some damn good ale and some pretty good food.

[deuce]

I should think that standing on the side of the bull's neck and taking hold of the snout and pulling suddenly and violently upward would do the trick. Much like snapping a rotten limb in two. 'Course, you gotta get him down first.
Just a thought from your friendly Licensed Massage Therapist...

Hey REHfan! Speaking as a former Unlicenced Massage Therapist to the Cattle of SEK, your scenario sounds a little unlikely. How is one to end up "standing on the side of the bull's neck"? Many modern bulls, and definitely aurochs bulls, weigh(ed) in around a thousand pounds, if not far more. Then again, we (and REH) aren't talkin' about modern bulls, "weaklings with muscles like rotten strings", we're discussing "wild Cimmerian bulls", "barbaric" bulls full of the vigor of the wastelands where they were bred. "Belgian Blues" (like the one above) are simply over-muscled "paper tigers" like Baal-Pteor (though still formidable). Any "uncut" adult bovine male is a formidable adversary. How otherwise did they protect their herds before we came along? Getting an "unpolled" (ie, "with horns") bull to the ground (as per your scenario) is no mean feat. Bulls know how to use their horns. On wild bovines (like aurochs, and the Longhorns I'm sure that REH was thinking of) their horns are big. And deadly. There are a few million years of evolution directing every move they make. Bulls are good "scramblers". If they're not on a fairly "slick" surface (for instance, the concrete of the the Richardson corral), they can very quickly regain their footing. The neck of a bull is not anything like a "rotten branch". Look at a brisket. Double the size. Then bolt it to a very heavy skeletal chassis. Then have that fighting you with "bad intention". That neck is the "crane" that moves the "bucket" (head/feeding machine) of the bull.

Two years ago, a good friend of mine heart-shot (with a bow) one of the big bucks SEK is known for. The buck weighed in at 177lbs. My friend didn't want to use a bone-saw on the neck because of bone fragments tainting the meat. He's a wiry, in-shape 170+lbs. Couldn't break the neck. I'm 5'11+" and a muscular 250+lbs. Couldn't break the neck. We both tried, together. Couldn't break the neck. The buck was dead. It wasn't fighting back. Of course, we didn't have the head (with antlers) for leverage. Just slick, skinned muscle to grab onto. Still, I think my experience is educational. Breaking a human neck is hard enough (hand-to-hand). Breaking a Cimmerian (or any other) bull's neck is no joke, as I said.

BTW, bull's meat makes the best chili.

[Sharn]

+1 on the chili

[REHfan]

+1 on the chili

Duly noted... I'll stick to chili recipes and sitting in the corner...

[deuce]

Here's one more thing I'd like to note:

"For all his vocal scorn of Baal-pteor's strength, he (Conan) had almost met his match in the inhuman Kosalan." (CoC p.198)

Now, if the Kosalan was almost a "match" for Conan in his prime, how did Conan break the neck of a Cimmerian bull when he was fifteen years old? Look at the neck of the biggest, burliest, most bullet-headed dude you can find. Then, look at the neck of a Cape buffalo. Was the Cimmerian "talkin' trash" (while being strangled) to demoralize his opponent? Was he "spinnin' a yarn", like his creator? Don't get me wrong, if I had to say one way or another, I'd say young Conan broke that bull's neck somehow. I just think that there was some kind of "stunt" involved. My two lunas.

[jackx]

If the bull moves at speed and is made to fall, making it break its neck should not be that hard...

I'd interpret that Baal-pteor passage as "Conan met someone who almost defeated/killed him", with the difficulty coming
mainly from what Baal-pteor is doing to Conan, and not so much from the simple physical challenge of breaking his neck.

[deuce]

If the bull moves at speed and is made to fall, making it break its neck should not be that hard...

Hey jackx! I agree (see Post #24). However, I don't see it as being that easy either...