104 replies to this topic

[jak]

Conan could. Who's next ...?

Edited by jak, 06 October 2005 - 10:20 PM.

[Jaybird]

Judging by that white shirt on the bull's horn I'd say, 1: someone got alittle too close and 2: they ain't havin' any fun anymore.

[Valin]

Judging by that white shirt on the bull's horn I'd say, 1: someone got alittle too close and 2: they ain't havin' any fun anymore.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The bull got him by the horns.

[jak]

Given the proximity of this beast to the camera, I'd have to say even the mighty Cimmerian would be hard-pressed to get out the way in time.

Then again, he'd probably charge and meet it head-on, train-wreck style. Yeah some of his ribs will crack and the wind would get knocked out of him, but he'd hang on and start fighting for position. Maybe they splinter a wall or doorway and the bull finally loses his balance (hoofing?). Everybody knows its cake once the bull is on the ground.

I can see it.

Edited by jak, 07 October 2005 - 07:33 PM.

[PainBrush]

Everybody knows its cake once the bull is on the ground.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hahaha , anybody up for some cow-tipping ?

[Ironhand]

Whoever it was who took that picture and lived to get the film developed (or the file uploaded) deserves to come in 2nd place in a Conan act-alike contest.

[matsellah]

Looks as if the camera was laying in the street...

And the bull is slipping in waste material deposited by the photographer.

[Taranaich]

So, we know Conan could break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before he was an adult. Now, this sounds awesome and impressive, but a bit vague: does anyone know exactly how much force is needed to break a bull's neck? Assuming a Cimmerian bull was the equivalent of a modern male bovine as a rough estimate, how difficult would that be? Has anyone in history actually achieved such a feat, or something comparable?

Also, is there any possibility of Conan having "borrowed" the idea from Quo Vadis, where the noble Christian barbarian Ursus kills a bull in the same fashion? Or is there a long tradition of burly protagonists breaking bovine vertebrae I'm not aware of?

[Mikey_C]

A quick bit of googling has found this:

Bulls' killing in Zulu rite condemned as barbaric

By Stephen Bevan in Pretoria, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 1:31am GMT 08/01/2007

A grisly ceremony in which bulls are strangled to death by young Zulu warriors has prompted a political row in South Africa and set animal lovers against supporters of traditional customs.

The killing of two bulls during the annual First Fruits Festival in the province of KwaZulu-Natal caused outrage among animal rights groups, who claimed it breached animal protection legislation. They accused the government and the judiciary of being too afraid to intervene.

But Zulu traditionalists insist that the ceremony is an important part of their heritage and say that those who want it stopped care more about the rights of animals than those of people.

Del Jones, a senior inspector for the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (NSPCA) said the organisation was only asking for the animal to be slaughtered in a more humane manner.

"The Zulu kingdom says the animal's neck is broken, but there is no way a human can break a bull's neck," she said. "Its testicles are twisted, its tail is pulled. Last year they attempted to suffocate it by pushing mud down its throat and blocking its nostrils. It is 45 minutes of barbaric torture; there is no other way of putting it."

No one was prepared to intervene because the police, magistrates and politicians were also Zulus, she said.

A spokesman for the Zulu royal household, Bethuel Ngcobo, said he would "not entertain" complaints.

"This is part of our culture. This ceremony was revived in 1990 and it has been taking place every year and it will not stop now," he said.

The department of agriculture said new guidelines would be drawn up, in consultation with traditional leaders.

Who do we believe, the Zulus or the animal welfare folks?

[Rusty Burke]

Occasionally a bull's neck will be broken by bull-dogging, a "sport" Howard was well aware of, as demonstrated by this comment from a letter to August Derleth:

"It was a negro who first invented ?bull dogging?. It was a matter of necessity with him. The old mossy horns took to the brush where he couldn?t swing his riata, so he dived off and grabbed their noses in his teeth and wrestled them down. Eventually all his teeth got jerked out, from time to time, and he got to grabbing their horns in the modern style. I forget his name; but he won a big purse down in Mexico throwing fighting bulls, and he died only recently. If you?ve ever seen a steer bull dogged, you know what a dangerous and exciting pastime it is."

The guy credited with inventing bull-dogging is Bill Pickett, who died about a year before Howard's letter.

While I am aware of no evidence that REH read Quo Vadis, it would not surprise me in the least if he had -- it was a hugely popular book through the first half of the past century.

Rusty

[Taranaich]

Darn it, I never got any decent results from googling. Probably been too specific or something.

Having looked up Steer wrestling, I found this intriguing (if a bit unpleasant) video.

From that, I can definitely see Conan twisting a steer's neck around sufficiently to break it, though I'll wager a domesticated steer would be easier to defeat than a wild bull, but I can still see a sort of strategy that Conan might have used.

[Mikey_C]

Darn it, I never got any decent results from googling. Probably been too specific or something.

Actually, I don't know why I use the expression "googling", as I find Clusty to be by far the best search engine.

[Rusty Burke]

Having looked up Steer wrestling, I found this intriguing (if a bit unpleasant) video.

At least the bull got up, though I imagine he had a heckuva crick in his neck for a while. Gotta say that fella had pretty poor technique. A good dogger ought to be able to take a bull down in less than 10 seconds, and that guy took near 30. Of course, he had to take him down twice, for some reason.

Rusty

[Max the Gaijin]

As a Full Contact Stickfighter and Kali student. I can tell you that Small Filipino men in some of the Islands can Dumog a water buffalo and thats a Animal that weights around 1500lbs and a average Filipino man is probably 5'5..A dumog is a attempt to grab the buffalo around the neck and bring him down to the earth..Why? Because if you can Do that to a Water Buffalo you can do that to a Man..They showed this on the History channel 2 fridays ago. So..As you can see, you don't have to be a over massive person to do this or break a bulls neck..You need leverage and a good grip.

[Kortoso]

As a Full Contact Stickfighter and Kali student. I can tell you that Small Filipino men in some of the Islands can Dumog a water buffalo and thats a Animal that weights around 1500lbs and a average Filipino man is probably 5'5..A dumog is a attempt to grab the buffalo around the neck and bring him down to the earth..Why? Because if you can Do that to a Water Buffalo you can do that to a Man..They showed this on the History channel 2 fridays ago. So..As you can see, you don't have to be a over massive person to do this or break a bulls neck..You need leverage and a good grip.

Yeah, I saw that episode. It appeared that the kali man was getting dumog'ed by the bull as much as the other way around.

Maybe the Cimmerians started rassling with these beesties when they were wee calves?

[Max the Gaijin]

Could be..Then again..If you read into the Edited version of that Show..The producers made them stop because he was afraid that he was hurting the animal.

[Taranaich]

Great stuff guys!

So the consensus is that, sufficiently skilled, it could be possible to kill a bull by breaking it's neck by bull-dogging or dumog, so that would be a way for young Conan to do this.

Now, the thing is, Howard specifically states that Conan killed a wild Cimmerian Bull. Now, depending on whether you think Conan engaged in a bit of hyperbole or not (doubtful given his straightforward nature), this could imply that either cattle were not domesticated, that they engaged in a "low level" form of domestication like the Samis and reindeer, or that some communities of cattle remained undomesticated. Or perhaps he was referring to the bull as like his "wilder brothers", in that it was a particularly cranky example.

There's also the method Conan used to kill Baal-pteor:

"Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man - like this!"

And with a savage wrench he twisted Baal-pteor's head around until the ghastly face leered over the left shoulder, and the vertebrae snapped like a rotten branch.

Now this could be neither here nor there, but I doubt even Conan could kill a bull by grabbing it's neck and twisting it about. I guess "like this" meant that he just used a twisting motion (as in bull-dogging/dumog), as opposed to hyperextension or a spinal lock-type thing. Or does it...

[Kortoso]

Or perhaps he was referring to the bull as like his "wilder brothers", in that it was a particularly cranky example.

Perhaps we got us some wranglers in the audience who can address this, but it seems to me there's a "thundering herd" of difference between a "steer" and a "bull" - in temperment, I mean. Are there any truly tame bulls?

[Mikey_C]

I trust people realise that this site's now been put on PETA's "most wanted" list?

[PainBrush]

also , let's not forget Howard may or may not have been implying a wild 'Auroch' not the modern day bulls that have been 'domesticated' & bred down to manageable sizes ( but not really 'tamed' totally I guess) They were still around in the far northern areas of Europe until the 1600's when the last one died in captivity . They grew to about generally twice the size in overall mass to any of the biggest bulls you've ever seen tossing rednecks at the rodeo !! Picture a buffalo crossed with a big bull & double the size ! - Well you've all seen the cave paintings in France I'm sure of aurochs tossing bow & spear weilding men way up in the air .