50 replies to this topic

[Kortoso]

ex Wikipedia:

"Xuthal of the Dusk" is one of the original stories by Robert E. Howard about Conan the Cimmerian, first published in Weird Tales in 1934 under the title "The Slithering Shadow". The story was republished in the collections The Sword of Conan (Gnome Press, 1952) and Conan the Adventurer (Lancer Books, 1966). It has more recently been published in the collections The Conan Chronicles Volume 1: The People of the Black Circle (Gollancz, 2000) as "The Slithering Shadow" and in Conan of Cimmeria: Volume One (1932-1933) (Del Rey, 2003) under its original title, "Xuthal of the Dusk."

[Kortoso]

Although the "bad guys" and monsters are not as detailed as they are in other yarns, this is still one of my favorite tales. Conan and his lady friend get dropped in the middle of a strange city with ancient secrets... which other tale does that remind you of?

It owns the record for having the longest and most detailed fight scene of any REH Conan adventure - probably one reason I enjoy it.

[VoragoExcarnator]

Thanks for the new story

This is a good one. Conan really tears the Xuthal-ians up!! They are worse off than normal civilized weaklings since they spend most of their time dreaming and being nerdy If Conan so far outclasses even the semi-civilized trackers of Beyond the Black River, and regularly tears up legions of war-like civillized men, and even other barbarians, these guys stood no chance whatsoever. Awesome fight scenes.

We get some good decaying civillization themes here, (very Red Nails) and some glimpses at Khitan-like peoples.
Plus a shoggoth like thing (maybe related to the tittering thing in the Scarlet Citadel?) and a healing potion!! If you want typical RPG-like or high fantasy healing potions, this is your best bet!

Thalis is a great character, and the whole setting is just fantastic.

On the negative side: I actually think the fight with Thog pales in comparison to the fight against Xuthal's best. I'd say Thog was must cooler when he was grabbing sleeping dudes off their beds.

The girl adorning Conan's arm is so pitiful in this one I scarcely remember her name. A far cry from Valeria of Red Nails, or even Belit (Queen of the Black Coast).

Highlights: Conan slaughtering the city, the setting, Thalis
Low points: the ehhh fight with Thog, the weak female character

Summary; Great story, way outclassed by Red Nails, but still has some nice elements of its own (the city is larger, seems less decayed, and has collpased because of drug use rather than through wholesale degeneration, slaughter and civil war.) I'll say 7/10.

[Kortoso]

We haven't heard from you lately VX, hope you continue to spend more time here.

[Axerules]

Thanks for the new tale, Kortoso. , even if it's not my favourite one. Red Nails explored the lost city/decaying civilization themes better. Thus said it's not worthless.[quote name='VoragoExcarnator' post='67403' date='May 8 2007, 07:27 PM']Conan really tears the Xuthal-ians up!! They are worse off than normal civilized weaklings since they spend most of their time dreaming and being nerdy If Conan so far outclasses even the semi-civilized trackers of Beyond the Black River, and regularly tears up legions of war-like civillized men, and even other barbarians, these guys stood no chance whatsoever. Awesome fight scenes.[/quote]The long fight scene is well-describded and funny, but I had the feeling Conan was never really in danger and that the Xuthalans were only mooks.

[quote]On the negative side: I actually think the fight with Thog pales in comparison to the fight against Xuthal's best. I'd say Thog was must cooler when he was grabbing sleeping dudes off their beds.[/quote]I do not agree. Conan is really badly wounded after his fight with Thog: [quote name='REH']"The manhandling the Cimmerian had received was appalling to behold. at every step he dripped blood. His face was skinned and bruised as if he had been beaten with a bludgeon. His lips were pulped, and blood oozed down his face from a wound in his scalp. There were deep gashes in his thighs, calves and forearms, and great bruises showed on his limbs and body from impacts against the stone floor. But his shoulders, back and upper-breast muscles had suffered most. The flesh was bruised, swollen and lacerated, the skin hanging in loose strips, as if he had been lashed with wire whips."[/quote] Howard described Conan injuries with a whole paragraph. I don't remember, except after the crucifixion in A Witch Shall be Born REH describing Conan so badly hurt. I don't say that this fight was the more difficult he went through, but Thog wasn't an easy target.

[quote]The girl adorning Conan's arm is so pitiful in this one I scarcely remember her name. A far cry from Valeria of Red Nails, or even Belit (Queen of the Black Coast).[/quote]I totally agree with you. If I hadn't my book at hand, I couldn't say that Natala is really insipid.

In this story what I noticed is how Conan could be cynical and his grim sense of humor, like in the last sentences :[quote name='REH']"Did I tell the Stygian to fall in love with me ? After all, she was only human !"[/quote] Also, Natala was some kind of pleasure slave for Conan: [quote name='REH']The girl was a Brythunian, whom Conan had found in the slave-market of a stormed Shemite city and appropriated. She had nothing to say in the matter, but her position was so far superior to the lot of any Hyborian woman in a Shemitish seraglio that she accepted it thankfully.[/quote]The Shemites must be really ruthless with women from their Seraglio for her to live better lifes as mercenaries sluts. And Conan was certainly not the good guy described in some pastiches as opposed to slavery.
[quote]Summary; Great story, way outclassed by Red Nails, but still has some nice elements of its own (the city is larger, seems less decayed, and has collpased because of drug use rather than through wholesale degeneration, slaughter and civil war.) I'll say 7/10.[/quote] For me it's certainly not one of the best Conan adventures, but it's still entertaining with some grim macho humor. Is there a woman from the forum who could give us her opinion about it ?

[Strom]

I'm a fan of Natala for many reasons best explained in this thread:

www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=3431&hl=Natala


I see this story as a quintessential sword & sorcery tale that many have tried to duplicate over the years. Some - it would seem - are embarrassed by this fact and try to dismiss the story as somehow below other efforts by Howard. I love this story for many reasons. Some may feel that 'been there done that' type feeling when reading this story. Fierce warrior fights monster and saves the smoking hot babe. Well, no one tells that type of story better than the originator - and I'm not embarrassed by Howard's sword & sorcery tales that may feel dated in this modern society.

There is so much going on in this story right from the beginning. And at the end we see real demonstrated emotion from Conan toward a woman. What other woman did he ever hold hands with?

Bottom line - Conan really liked Natala and so do I. I also really like "Xuthal at Dusk" - one of the best Howard stories he ever wrote, IMO.

10/10

[Almuric]

This may be middle-of-the-road Conan, but it's still quite fun. Xuthal is interesting even if it's one of what seems like a dozen greenstone lost cities in Hyboria. Thog is a great monster, even if I sometimes get him mixed up with Thak and Thaug. Conan has a truly ferocious fight at the end and there's even some humor at the end (about time we see some of those gigantic mirths!). Much better than the previous story, with which it shares several plot elements.

And I'd love to learn more about this Almuric guy, too . . .

[Axerules]

Hi Strom ! I don't feel "embarrassed' at all, and I never said this story was crap but IMO not REH's best one. About Natala, I have read the whole (interesting) thread. I do agree that the "holding hands" thing is something unusual for Conan. It seems that Natala touched something in you. REH's stories and characters can have this effect on people. I'm not fond of blondes but more of black-haired women, so Belit has a stronger effect on me. I guess it has more to do with our own personal experiences than the quality of the story.
To get back to the story, it's not the stereotypes or cliches that bother me, I even said that I appreciated the grim macho humor. Xuthal simply did nothing to me. It was entertaining, but I had not the same thrills that I felt reading some other stories. It's not a kind of snobism, what would I do in this forum if I despised S&S ? You know, English is not my first language, but when I read REH books, I can feel the strength of his words and of his poetry. And sometimes it's really strong. When I read the short poems in the Scarlet Citadel, I feel something powerful that I haven't experienced with this story. I'm closer to Almuric's about this adventure: "This may be middle-of-the-road Conan, but it's still quite fun." I still think it's not REH's best.

Edited by Axerules, 12 May 2007 - 03:52 AM.

[VoragoExcarnator]

We haven't heard from you lately VX, hope you continue to spend more time here.

Thanks

I try to drop in every once in a while, but the forums are pretty slow moving . I've got a couple posts in "The Hyborian Age" that don't seem to have been glanced at yet; or at least not responded to.

[Strom]

Hi Strom ! I don't feel "embarrassed' at all, and I never said this story was crap but IMO not REH's best one. About Natala, I have read the whole (interesting) thread. I do agree that the "holding hands" thing is something unusual for Conan. It seems that Natala touched something in you. REH's stories and characters can have this effect on people. I'm not fond of blondes but more of black-haired women, so Belit has a stronger effect on me. I guess it has more to do with our own personal experiences than the quality of the story.
To get back to the story, it's not the stereotypes or cliches that bother me, I even said that I appreciated the grim macho humor. Xuthal simply did nothing to me. It was entertaining, but I had not the same thrills that I felt reading some other stories. It's not a kind of snobism, what would I do in this forum if I despised S&S ? You know, English is not my first language, but when I read REH books, I can feel the strength of his words and of his poetry. And sometimes it's really strong. When I read the short poems in the Scarlet Citadel, I feel something powerful that I haven't experienced with this story. I'm closer to Almuric's about this adventure: "This may be middle-of-the-road Conan, but it's still quite fun." I still think it's not REH's best.

Hey Axerules - good points. Would ya believe my wife is a brunette? My point was the character of Natala breaks the mold of familiar female characters created by REH. Yet she is dismissed - along with the story Xuthal at Dusk - as simplistic and clich? when she probably has done more for Conan pastiche stories then Belit, Valeria and Zenobia combined! Let alone Frazetta's imagination.

As for the story doing nothing for you, I've been there. Some stories just don't capture the imagination compared to other favorites. But, for me the story has it all and epitomizes everything there is to like about REH's Conan.

Edited by Strom, 12 May 2007 - 04:30 AM.

[Almuric]

This would make a perfect one-hour episode of an REH-faithful Conan TV series.

[Speelie]

With no offense intended towards anyone here, I find Xuthal of the Dusk to be one of my least favorite REH stories. I actually prefer several Conan pastiches to this one, because I am most interested in reading about Conan on some sort of military campaign. I'm fine with a Conan story not even having a female character, and if there is to be one, I like them to be like Valeria (or like Red Sonya from the non-Conan Shadow of the Vulture).

But I'm strange, because I'm not even particularly a fan of the "supernatural element" that is supposed to go into every Conan tale. I'm fine with REH's Crusader/Oriental stories that completely lack the supernatural, or the Solomon Kane story The Blue Flame of Vengeance (that Weird Tales declined to publish due to its being a straight pirate yarn). So to me, the whole idea of this slithering shadow being Thog is sort of silly, especially when compared to the Red Nails conflict of two tribes locked in perpetual war. But this is just MY taste in things, and I mention it to offer a different viewpoint, with no criticism implied towards the taste of those who enjoy Xuthal.

[Darkstorm Dale]

Ahhh, XUTHAL OF THE DUSK.

People usually lump this story into the "there are better Conan stories" category; as if Howard is turning out "formula" Conan stories by this point. This story is pretty original, all things considered. It resembles QOTBC in that Conan must fight a monster in a time-lost city, but the likeness is really only superficial.

It vividly illustrates Howard's belief that civilizations tend to degenerate into softness and corruption. The sheople of Xuthal are so lost in their dream-worlds that they really don't offer much resistance to the wolf that slowly picks them off. Have you ever seen kids so taken away by their PSP's and Nintendo's that they are oblivious to the real world around them? It's just grist for the mill in Xuthal...

One thing I've always admired about the way Howard portrays Conan's women is that they never seem to be motivated by the same needs, and so they don't come across to me as cookie-cutter generic girlfriends. Natala is, quite frankly, Conan's slave. Now he may not see her in that light, but that's the way she acts throughout the story. She is submissive and generally tries not to give offense to anyone (at least not until she's roused to self-preservation and ineffectively cuts Thalis). She's also very young, probably a pre-adult teenager, since Howard makes a point of calling her a girl, and even has Thalis refer to her as a child.

The thing that makes this story really different is that Howard injects a great deal of sexually into the story. The people of Xuthal are pretty much sexual degenerates, since their appetites tend to run into the more "exotic" sexual practices. Thalis even states that if the citizens of Xuthal got their hands on Natala that she probably wouldn't survive the experience. The tale even has a bit of girl-on-girl bondage & discipline; Thalis hangs Natala from some chains and proceeds to whip her.

But probably the most surprising thing about this story is that Howard injects this sexuality into the subtext of his monster, Thog. Literally every time Thog makes an appearance in the story, there is an element of sexuality; sometimes subtle, sometimes not.

Thog's first appearance in the story is as a shadow that "takes a man from a sleeping-dais and leaves only a spot of blood". Bloodstains on a bed usually symbolize a bride losing her virginity on her wedding night. The blood spot is a subtle sexual symbol.

Thog's second appearance is when he comes upon Thalis whipping Natala and takes her unaware. As he takes her off into the shadows to devour her, Howard relates what the bound Natala is hearing down the corridor, "There was no sound except the Stygian's panting voice, which suddenly rose to screams of agony, and then broke into hysterical laughter, mingled with sobs. This dwindled to a convulsive panting, and presently this too ceased, ...". Earlier in the story Thalis related that she had been initiated into the temple of Derketo and implied that it was the reason that she was able to thrive despite being sexually brutalized by the men of Xuthal; she was able to mentally turn pain into sexual pleasure. When Howard writes about what Natala hears as Thalis is being eaten is no more than the Stygian's attempt to turn the agony of being devoured into a sexual experience and failing. It's a powerful scene, and Howard does a great job of creeping me out because of the way he presents it.

Thog reappears and takes hold of Natala: "A dark tentacle-like member slid about her body, and she screamed at the touch of it on her naked flesh. It was neither warm nor cold, rough nor smooth; it was like nothing that had ever touched her before, and at it's caress she knew such fear and shame as she had never dreamed of. All the obscenity and salacious infamy spawned in the muck of the abysmal pits of Life seemed to drown her in seas of cosmic filth. And in that instant she knew whatever form of life this thing represented it was not a beast." Note the words Howard uses to describe the encounter: caress, obscenity, salacious; all sexually charged words. It's no wonder that Natala knew that this creature was no mindless beast; it was purposely feeling her up!

Conan's fight with Thog ends the creature role in the story, and while there is nothing overtly sexual about the fight, I did notice that the main way that the creature damaged Conan was by lashing him with its tentacles, which Howard describes as "something like a whip of scorpions". Xuthal truly is a city where both the inhabitants and its monster are experienced in lashing their victims. It sort of makes one wonder if the demon living beneath their city influenced the inhabitants behavior through their dreams and they acted out it's desires on a subliminal level.

At any rate, I figure that Howard wrote this sexed-up story in an attempt to determine the limits of what he could get away with in presenting his story the way he did. Seems to have worked out alright, since Weird Tales published it.

I, for one, think it's great!

[VoragoExcarnator]

But probably the most surprising thing about this story is that Howard injects this sexuality into the subtext of his monster, Thog. Literally every time Thog makes an appearance in the story, there is an element of sexuality; sometimes subtle, sometimes not.

Thog's first appearance in the story is as a shadow that "takes a man from a sleeping-dais and leaves only a spot of blood". Bloodstains on a bed usually symbolize a bride losing her virginity on her wedding night. The blood spot is a subtle sexual symbol.

Thog's second appearance is when he comes upon Thalis whipping Natala and takes her unaware. As he takes her off into the shadows to devour her, Howard relates what the bound Natala is hearing down the corridor, "There was no sound except the Stygian's panting voice, which suddenly rose to screams of agony, and then broke into hysterical laughter, mingled with sobs. This dwindled to a convulsive panting, and presently this too ceased, ...". Earlier in the story Thalis related that she had been initiated into the temple of Derketo and implied that it was the reason that she was able to thrive despite being sexually brutalized by the men of Xuthal; she was able to mentally turn pain into sexual pleasure. When Howard writes about what Natala hears as Thalis is being eaten is no more than the Stygian's attempt to turn the agony of being devoured into a sexual experience and failing. It's a powerful scene, and Howard does a great job of creeping me out because of the way he presents it.

Thog reappears and takes hold of Natala: "A dark tentacle-like member slid about her body, and she screamed at the touch of it on her naked flesh. It was neither warm nor cold, rough nor smooth; it was like nothing that had ever touched her before, and at it's caress she knew such fear and shame as she had never dreamed of. All the obscenity and salacious infamy spawned in the muck of the abysmal pits of Life seemed to drown her in seas of cosmic filth. And in that instant she knew whatever form of life this thing represented it was not a beast." Note the words Howard uses to describe the encounter: caress, obscenity, salacious; all sexually charged words. It's no wonder that Natala knew that this creature was no mindless beast; it was purposely feeling her up!

Wow. Never thought about the single drop of blood as breaking of a girl's maidenhead. Good points about the sexual language used to describe Thog.

Never made the connection between Thalis' panting and her attempt to turn the pain of being devoured into pleasure. Very interesting theory, and it makes sense! and it all hinges upon a very close reading of the story, nice analysis.

I also never noticed how Conan holds Natala's hand, also a very interesting and possibly unique moment.

[deuce]

All credit to Dale for his insights. To me, this has always been the most sexual Conan yarn. Even the expansion/revision/improvement, Red Nails, never topped it. It's sorta Conan's "Date (Night Out) From Hell" story. I mean, you and your girl are headin' home and you decide to stop at this party-house. It looks like everybody's partied out except for some goon you hafta put down. Then you grab some beer and snacks. Next thing you know, some hot tramp is tryin' to hook up and she doesn't care what she has to do to get you. They go off to "powder their noses" and before you know it, they're whalin' away. Enter the "Owner of the House". He's P1$$ed! So, you kick his a$$, a little the worse for wear after. You grab yer girl and haul a$$ before any more friends/cops show up.

Been there (more or less). That's why I relate to this yarn (amongst other things).

[Taranaich]

I can't say I really dislike any of the Conan tales, this being no exception.

I'd like to echo Dale's sentiments regarding the outrageous (for the time) sexuality of the story, I thought I was the only one who thought Thog was getting fresh with Natala. Does anyone else think there's a link between this tale and C.L.Moore's Shambleu? It seems Howard was influenced by a lot of Moore's work, particularly in the weird horror sphere.

I loved Thalis, I found her one of the most memorable bad girls of the Conan stories. She made up for Natala's relative innocuousness with her striking dominance. I'm not entirely sure she got consumed by Thog, I'd rather think it took her for a mate. There's no evidence for this, but given the other tales of characters being born through demonic rape (Tsotha-Lanti, Zogar Sag) I don't see why not. It's probably more likely she was eaten though.

We also get a nice link to Almuric, that mysterious rebel prince of Koth: another character with just a name who completists like me yearn for more info on.

[timeless]

To me, the most striking part of 'Xuthal' (one of my favorite Conan yarns) is how close Conan is at the beginning of the story to thrusting a blade into his girl. To spare her the pain of dehydration and slow death in the desert.

[Kieran]

I'm not entirely sure she got consumed by Thog, I'd rather think it took her for a mate.

That was always my understanding of it too - he raped her and then killed her, although I must admit the whole pleasure into pain thing never occurred to me. But then again if a giant ape is devouring you I'd doubt you'd last long enough to make all that noise.

This is one of my personal favourite stories. Although there's definite similarities with Red Nails, I think this story is creepier - the whole idea of people allowing themselves to be devoured whenever Thog feels like a snack just so they can wallow in their decadence is just plain disturbing. And although Natala is dull, Thalis more than makes up for it.

[Kortoso]

To me, the most striking part of 'Xuthal' (one of my favorite Conan yarns) is how close Conan is at the beginning of the story to thrusting a blade into his girl. To spare her the pain of dehydration and slow death in the desert.

Right! There is quite a bit of such characterizations in this tale. First, the Brythunian girl is a slave that Conan "sort of" stole (or borrowed), then he gives her the last of the water, hoping to slay her and spare her a slow lingering death; later he threatens to gut her for grabbing his sword arm. Mixed messages!

[VoragoExcarnator]

To me, the most striking part of 'Xuthal' (one of my favorite Conan yarns) is how close Conan is at the beginning of the story to thrusting a blade into his girl. To spare her the pain of dehydration and slow death in the desert.

Right! There is quite a bit of such characterizations in this tale. First, the Brythunian girl is a slave that Conan "sort of" stole (or borrowed), then he gives her the last of the water, hoping to slay her and spare her a slow lingering death; later he threatens to gut her for grabbing his sword arm. Mixed messages!

I feel like the tale of Conan's acquisition of Natala would make a great pastiche.
Almuric (a rebel prince of Koth apparently) and his army sweep through Koth. When they sack the city Conan frees Natala in all the chaos, taking her for himself because of her comliness. After a few more victories (and having cut their way all the way through to Kush), the army is cornered by superior forces from Stygia and Kush. Almuric dies in a hail of arrows and Conan cuts his way to a camel with Natala (if Almuric's army is ambushed on the move, where does Natala go during the fight? Does Conan have to fight with her constantly underfoot? Or are they perhaps ambushed when they camp for the night, with Natala staying back in camp as the battle rages?).

There's really no supernatural element here, but thats not necessarily a bad thing (though perhaps wholly unique in the Conan stories). I wonder how Dark Horse is going to treat this when they get there