116 replies to this topic

[Kortoso]

Sorry guys, I got a little behind with this (blame it on Maui). Dark Horse covering this story recently also sort of eclipsed any of our discussions.

But now that we're familiar with the story, let's discuss it!

This is one of my personal favorites: Conan is independent, but sure of himself. No huge armies, no weird magic, just Conan with a bladed weapon and a job to do.

If you really hate this story, go ahead and sing out!

We see a lot of exposition of Conan's code of honor here.

The story is told with a very strange style, almost as if REH were writing the synopsis for a novel.

Thoughts?

[timeless]

This one always stuck out to me. VERY uniquely Bob Howardish as opposed to his imitators.

No magic. The Red Priest owed his trickery to science and technology.

Also, no huge monsters (pastichists, especially Jordan, often had these huge underground monsters coming to the surface at the end of the story...I guess they got that from 'Valley of the Worm.') Just an ape. Not a magic ape or even a flying ape like in 'Black Coast.' Just a big, semi-intelligent ape. Great enemy.

Murilo...definitely a rogue.

And Conan himself...young and foolish, gets nabbed while drunk, jealously kills a girlfriend's new beau (or pimp, as he had been himself?) and then readily agrees to be an assassin in exchange for his freedom. And once he gains the freedom he commits himself to the deed instead of taking off.

And the ending...the villain stops to taunt those he betrayed. Conan promptly smashes his head in with a thrown piece of furniture. Gotta love it.

[Taranaich]

Not one of my favourites, but considering how much I enjoy Conan that's a rather redundant phrase.

So many iconic "Conan" moments: the revenge on his girl, the mirrors, the poignant moments with Thak...

And the ending...the villain stops to taunt those he betrayed. Conan promptly smashes his head in with a thrown piece of furniture. Gotta love it.

That was just so satisfying: no having to chase the villain or face him in some contrived sorcerous battle, just pick up a stool and KABLAMMO to the side of the head.

[deuce]

Great posts. "Rogues" has always been a "middling" Conan yarn for me. There are the "iconic" moments (though there are those in every Conan yarn, IMO), but no real sense of place, IMO. We have very little to go on as to what stage of Conan's life this takes place (it could be argued that it takes place later than when it's generally positioned), what the city is named or what nation it's a part of. The weaknesses jostle with the strengths. Still, a better tale than 99%+ of all others written (within the fantasy genre). I DO agree with Kortoso that it seems compressed. More intrigue, more of the Maze, more of the Cimmerian's time as a gangsta/pimp would've been great. My two lunas.

[timeless]

I think the tendency to look back at these stories and see them as part of a tapestry, an encompassing career for the character, fails to take into account one thing: Howard was writing yarns for a monthly market. His goal was to get a story in the mail and in a magazine, preferably featured on the cover, and get paid half a cent a word. That tendency, the holes created by his writing only a couple dozen stories across Conan's life, is why pastiche writers have found it so irresistible to plunder for their own purposes.

Edited by timeless, 14 September 2007 - 09:16 PM.

[deuce]

Hey Timeless! Without a doubt, you're correct. I'm giving my opinion as a geek of the entire Hyborian Age corpus here. As I said, relatively speaking, an excellent yarn. To me, though, it could've been one of the "greats" within the Conan canon with a bit more fleshing out. (two more lunas in the pot)

[Kortoso]

Perhaps REH came up with an idea out of the blue and just wrote it quickly to fit the space, or maybe he was a gifted genius that wanted to give his readers a chance to fill in their own fantasy: who was the girl? who was the guy on the stairs? who was the Gunderman? REH was being paid by the word, and he could have stretched this into a novella if he wanted to. He could have magicked up names for all the revolutionaries, and their life stories, but he didn't.

My two lunas: part of his minimalist style that makes his fiction so appealing is that since we are forced to connect the dots, it's really our personal fantasy.

[deuce]

My two lunas: part of his minimalist style that makes his fiction so appealing is that since we are forced to connect the dots, it's really our personal fantasy.

True dat.

[timeless]

One of the cool things about the Del Rey 'Coming of Conan the Cimmerian' is the Mark Schultz illustration on the final page of 'Rogues...' a stool lying on the floor, turned sideways with blood from it pooling on the ground.

[deuce]

One of the cool things about the Del Rey 'Coming of Conan the Cimmerian' is the Mark Schultz illustration on the final page of 'Rogues...' a stool lying on the floor, turned sideways with blood from it pooling on the ground.

Mark's a great guy and a fine artist. I don't agree with all of his depictions of Howard's vision in "CoC", but every one of his "coda" illos were great, IMO.

[timeless]

I loved his Yag-Kosha, Deuce!

[Strom]

I wanted to add my thoughts on one of my favorite Conan stories. For me, Rogues in the House is one of the Conan stories that for me will always be tied to the iconic Conan and Thak painting by Frank Frazetta that graced the cover of book three of the Sphere/Lancer books. That image - like many of Frank's Conan paintings - has to be credited to REH for creative inspiration more than any other Frazetta painting, IMHO. The scene is captured perfectly and it demanded I buy the book and find out what story that image was from. That being said, the final battle was anti-climac to me yet it didn't ruin the story at all - in fact the complexity of the characters and the situation overwhelmed the action. Howard obviously can write some incredibile action sequences but in Rogues in the House that was secondary to the overall plot and character development, especially when you compare Rogues to other action oriented Conan stories.

Some things that have always stayed with me from this story:

1) Murder. Conan murders the priest of Anu and also the new boyfriend of the girl who betrayed him and even the jailer all in just a few paragraphs. The others are quickly described but interestingly, Howard uses some very harsh language to describe Conan as he murders the boyfriend:

as the monster lurched against him

The barbarian loomed above him for an instant, ghoul-like, his eyes burning in the gloom

Monster and ghoul-like are not exactly descriptions commonly used by Howard to describe Conan. This deed seemed foul even for Bob and even though Conan did it, Howard didn't clean it up by coloring the act with trivial excuses. Murder, conspiracy and thievery all tie excellently into Bob's story - and the title - however the harsh language for the boyfriend's murder marks one of the most foulest deeds Conan commits in his career, IMO. A true act of a Rogue and Bob doesn't try to excuse it as anything but evil from a civilized viewpoint - his as a writer and ours as a reader.

2) The scene in the dungeon when Nabonidus, Murillo and Conan are watching Thak in the room above via Nabonidus' arrangement of mirrors and tubes is unique to me because Conan is at such a disadvantage intellectually when compared to his companions. Nabonidus, having constructed the inventiont certainly understands how it works and Murillo is rightly awed by the invention that he understands such work is centuries ahead of of Nabonidus' generation. Yet, Conan isn't hampered at all by this incredible display of intellect and just "put it down to witchcraft and troubled his head no more about it." Another example of Conan's barbarian instinct diminishing the civilized intellect and the power that comes with it.

3) The final battle. Conan ambushes Thak from behind - a classic rogue sneak attack with a dagger! This is long before Dungeons and Dragons popularized the rogue and his dagger sneak attack - maybe this is where the action was inspired from? It fits so perfectly with the entire storyline within Nabonidus' house that a frontal attack would've just seemed inappropriate. Kudos to Bob again for how he setup the battle. I remember being surprised that it seemed that Conan would've lost his battle with the mighty Thak if Murillo hadn't struck when he did with the chair, allowing Conan the leverage to sink his poniard deep into Thak's heart. But again, that fits with the Rogues theme - this isn't Conan the invincable warrior but Conan the Rogue vs. a monster from the mountains of Nemedia. Murillo's help fits perfectly into the theme of the story.

4) The ending. I really like how this story ends with a tranquil Conan examining Nabonidus' end vs. the same path he is headed down

(Nabonidus) traveled the road all rogues must walk at last....There's many a highway I want to travel before I walk the road Nabonidus walked this night.

Often Conan finds humor or jest at the end of his adventures but not in Rogues. Theres no humor in murder, conspiracy and thievery and Howard doesn't yield to the cliche ending - just tells it like it is.


A truly original tale by REH. A 10/10.

[Taranaich]

I agree entirely with the strong and dark view of Conan, but I think a few qualifiers need to be added. This is not an attempt to try and "whitewash" Conan's actions, but to make them seem more ambiguous and perhaps understandable.

1. The Priest of Anu didn't seem very sympathetic: he worked as a fence and as a snitch to the local police, so he doesn't seem to have anyone's interest but his own at heart: Conan probably initially fled because he was betrayed. It's possible that the Gunderman whose execution he was responsible for was an ally or friend of Conan's, and that was enough for him to decide that this priest wouldn't double-cross any more thieves.

2. The guard does seem a reasonably good-natured man, so his death is more contemptible. However, are we sure that he was killed? This is probably really, really sketchy, but:

It was his first mistake in the line of duty, and his last. Conan brained him with the beef bone, took his poniard and his keys, and made a
leisurely departure.

Now this might be stretching it, but could he just have been knocked unconscious, and been immediately sacked for incompetence on his awakening, thus making it his first/last mistake in the line of duty, but not necessarily his life? Conan later says he "broke" his skull, but there's nothing in the text to say that the guard was killed except the context, and to be frank I think Howard's jocularity of it (Conan making a "leisurely departure") indicates that the poor sap was just knocked out. There is no mention of the guard wearing a helmet, but I think it would be more strange for a guardsman not to have a helmet. Plus slaying a guardsman would probably land Conan in heaps more trouble, so I would presume that he would only kill one if a: his life was in danger, or b: he wanted revenge on the guard.

3. The new lover did not seem a particularly noble character himself:

This young thug, her door closed behind him, groped his way down a creaking flight of stairs, intent on his own meditations, which, like those of most of the denizens of the Maze, had to do with the unlawful acquirement of property.

It gives the impression that anyone the girl chooses for a new boyfriend will probably be cut of the same cloth as Conan himself. While this doesn't make Conan's seemingly indiscriminate slaying any less brutal, one would think that Conan would have made the assumption that his girl's new boyfriend would be every bit as dangerous as he. Note that he didn't kill Murillo on account of his perfume: perhaps Conan's senses and instincts would have stayed his hand if the new boyfriend was anything other than a rough criminal.

Again, this isn't an attempt to make Conan out to be some whiter-than-white superhero, just a few musings on how things might not have been as bad as they seem.

Edited by Taranaich, 29 September 2007 - 07:44 PM.

[Kortoso]

Monster and ghoul-like are not exactly descriptions commonly used by Howard to describe Conan. This deed seemed foul even for Bob and even though Conan did it, Howard didn't clean it up by coloring the act with trivial excuses. Murder, conspiracy and thievery all tie excellently into Bob's story - and the title - however the harsh language for the boyfriend's murder marks one of the most foulest deeds Conan commits in his career, IMO. A true act of a Rogue and Bob doesn't try to excuse it as anything but evil from a civilized viewpoint - his as a writer and ours as a reader.

Me not sure. I think that the slaying of the priest was cold-blooded, while the BF's slatying was hot-blooded. REH didn't have Conan curse the guy out since that would add too many details, and we are supposed to fill in the blanks.

-

Does anyone have a request for a Conan story for October? I am generally going in order of publication, but that doesn't have to be a hard and fast rule.

[deuce]

I think the "by the book" approach has worked great, so far. We get to see REH mature as a writer, tale by tale, and it ensures that none of the yarns get left out somehow. My two lunas.

[timeless]

I'd like to see a discussion of 'Vale of Lost Women.' (maybe there's been a thread I'm missing...)

The story is generally considered the weakest of Howard's Conan yarns, but I think it is one of three that show his savage nature most clearly. Far from the 'rugged code of ethics' thing. In 'Frost Giant's Daughter,' he was prepared to commit rape. In 'Rogues,' he killed for money (and there was a hint of pimping as well.) In 'Vale' he breaks a strategic truce and brains a supposed ally with an animal bone at a celebratory dinner and then has his warriors massacre their supposed allies. And that little 'eye-opener' speech he gives to the girl who offers herself...

[Strom]

Monster and ghoul-like are not exactly descriptions commonly used by Howard to describe Conan. This deed seemed foul even for Bob and even though Conan did it, Howard didn't clean it up by coloring the act with trivial excuses. Murder, conspiracy and thievery all tie excellently into Bob's story - and the title - however the harsh language for the boyfriend's murder marks one of the most foulest deeds Conan commits in his career, IMO. A true act of a Rogue and Bob doesn't try to excuse it as anything but evil from a civilized viewpoint - his as a writer and ours as a reader.

[size=2]Me not sure. I think that the slaying of the priest was cold-blooded, while the BF's slatying was hot-blooded. REH didn't have Conan curse the guy out since that would add too many details, and we are supposed to fill in the blanks.

You and Taranaich are not alone in trying to rationalize Conan's actions as something other than cold-blooded murder. Roy Thomas and Tim Truman have done the same thing in the comics because the actions of Conan, in their mind need explanation so as not to appear so heinous. Don't forget that REH said that his "conception of barbarism does not glitter, particularly." Howard's use of the words 'monster' and 'ghoul-like' to describe Conan during the act, IMO, demands that I see the act as he describes it. I'm not going to add 'glitter' - or rationalizations - to his barbarian. I'm not sure we are suppose to fill in any blanks either. Even with few words, Bob Howard describes the scene from beginning to horrible end, leaving little to the imagination of that dudes fate. Conan does what a rogue does - kill without warning, jumping from a darkened alley, leaving you only a monsterous image of death as the last thing you see before you turn cold and die.

We should start a topic called "Conan's Bloodiest Kills - Rank 'Em".

EDIT: timeless - here's a small discussion on Vale from way back, if you do not want to wait until it is the Conan: Story of the Month:

www.conan.com/invboard/index.php?showtopic=1393&hl=Vale+of+the+lost+women

[Kortoso]

Maybe it was a narrow staircase and he was too grouchy to wait for the other guy to come down.

[Strom]

Maybe it was a narrow staircase and he was too grouchy to wait for the other guy to come down.

Could be.