139 replies to this topic

[Taranaich]

Hey Taranaich! How was Perth? Didja feast on venison and salmon in the heart of old Pictland?

I try to get salmon (or any fish) once a week, but no venison this year sadly.

The Zamorians/Zhemri/Sons of Shem are one of the big questions of the early HA. Somebody oughtta do a thread on them. Yogah called 'em a "race of devils". That doesn't really square with what we know of Thurian Age Zarfhaana. And what about that pesky "city of the ancients"?

Zamora seems to be a kingdom with as much dark sorcery as Acheron and Stygia, but doesn't seem to have the military to back it up. The one Zamorian sorcerer we encountered (Yara) is one of the most powerful of Howard's sorcerers; transmogrifying men into spiders, possible ability to grow monstrously tall, has some nasty bodyguards etc. I personally think that at the time of the Cataclysm, the Zhemri might have turned to sorcery to take advantage of the new landscapes. The cataclysm might have displaced some cthonic entities (worms of the earth, maybe the creatures with awful manes Xaltotun called upon?) and the Zhemri shamans utilized their demonic powers to found the kingdom of Zamora. Or something.

By "Egyptian", are you referring to ibis-headed Djehuti? Ibis and Set have fought since the "dawn of time", supposedly. Personally, I think "Ibis" should have his own thread. Here's some terms to check out on wikipedia: Thoth, fenghuang (keeping in mind that the Stygians once ruled s-e Asia), sacred ibis, bennu.

I seem to have gotten confused, I was Freudian slipping with Djehuti/Thoth and thinking the name was "Ibis" (possibly mixing it up with "Isis". Bah, my head's all swiss cheese these days. Yes, I was presuming that Ibis=Djehuti, since the two gods had altercations in Egyptian mythology.

Here's a question: what "unknown hands" hewed out Epemitreus' tomb? Not Mitrans.

Now that's a pickle. Perhaps it's a remnant of Valusia? Or is it a temple of the Serpent Men/Set worshippers appropriated by the Mitrans, subverting the original architecture (the snakes on the steps being "stepped on")?

[Fernando]

Hello, guys!

I've just read the THotD's synopsis, and my conclusion is very simple: Acheronians WERE NOT Hyborians. Robert E. Howard, in one People of the Black Circle's synopsis, for example, said Kerim Shah and Conan fought for Yasmina and the Cimmerian won. But in the defitive version - the tale - the Turanian was hideously killed by the Master of Yimsha.

In the Red Nails's draft, Valeria uses a golden band in her hair, but in the tale that band is crimson (the only two things I believe to be Howard's really opinion in that story are the burn of Valadelad and the history, told by Valeria to Conan, about Red Ortho had killed the former commander of the ship Valeria left - about these two points, REH did an omission, not a contradition when he rewrote Red Nails).

I could give you several examples like that ones above - the relationship draft/synopsis vs. tale -, but I believe that REH's tales are the defitive version of his conception about places, characters, people... However, somethings he wrote in the drafts and/or synopsis are, in my opinion, worth to be included in the tale's plot - when the tale omits them without contradict them. In The Hour of the Dragon Howard changed his mind when changed the synopis into tale. So, I still believe that Acheronians = Giant Kings. Though I don't agree with Rippke's timeline in some points, I think he's sure about others, like Acheron's origins, as well as Nordheimrs' one (the The Hyboryan Age essay and the tale Valley of the Worm confirm together that Snow Ape Men were, in Howard's conception, the Norsemen's ancestors).

Other important point is the Xaltotun's appearence. Is is white, but not grey-eyed neither tawny-haired like many of Hyborians that lived 3,000 years before Conan. His features (height, color of hair and eyes, and the eyes' shine) are very similar to Akivasha (doubtless a Stygian noble and, in my point of view, a giant-king's daughter), Thalis from Xuthal of the Dusk (another Stygian noble) and Thuron's ones - this last one, from the Kull's tale The Altar and the Scorpion, belongs, in my opinion, to giant king's ancestors .

Thank you all!

Fernando.

Edited by Fernando, 13 October 2007 - 01:36 AM.

[Axerules]

Other important point is the Xaltotun's appearence. Is is white, but not grey-eyed neither tawny-haired like many of Hyborians that lived 3,000 years before Conan. His features (height, color of hair and eyes, and the eyes' shine) are very similar to Akivasha (doubtless a Stygian noble and, in my point of view, a giant-king's daughter), Thalis from Xuthal of the Dusk (another Stygian noble) and Thuron's ones - this last one, from the Kull's tale The Altar and the Scorpion, belongs, in my opinion, to giant king's ancestors .

Hey Fernando: Dale Rippke wrote in Hyborian Heresies that Thuron/Guron was a member of the Elder Race.
But REH never stated that Thuron/Guron belonged to this breed ! It seems that D. Rippke assumed him to be an "Elder Racian" because he "fitted" with HIS newly-found definition of the Elder Race.
Look at The Mirrors of Tuzun Thune story. The girl of the Elder Race is described like this: "Fine gold was her hair and her violet eyes were slanted strangely; she was beautiful, but her beauty meant little to Kull." Tuzun Thune: "The man was ancient as the hills of Zalgara; like wrinkled leather was his skin, but his cold gray eyes were like sparks of sword steel." Are they also supposed to be the ancestors of the g-ks ? I don't see obvious similarities !



BTW, about Thalis and Akivasha being of giant-king blood :

The description of Thalis, from Xuthal of the Dusk (page 238) :

A burnished mass of night-black hair set off the whiteness of her ivory body.(...) her facial outline was Stygian, but she was not dusky skinned like the Stygian women he had known; her limbs were like alabaster.

And later (page 232) in her own words:

I am the daughter of a king, no common woman, as you can see by my skin, which is as white as that of your little blond there.

This echoes the description of Akivasha, in THotD (page 214) :

Her ivory skin showed her to be Stygian of some ancient noble family.

Those quotes SEEM to confirm the "white Stygian nobility" idea.


BUT:

Like Deuce mentioned it, this does not fit with Prince Kutamun, the "dark-skinned giant" who is "a rebellious Prince of Stygia". Kutamun IS a member of the Stygian nobility and is not "white". How is it possible IF Stygian nobles are "white" ?
HOW could the Stygian king's BROTHER be the only member of this supposedly "white/giant-king" nobility WITHOUT g-k blood ?


"Olive-skinned" people, kept out of the sun, tend to be "white".
The two abovementioned characters with "alabaster skin" are princesses. In a lot of cultures to preserve a pale skin was the mark of the aristocraty: it meant that you were not exposed to the sun because you had not to work like the common people.
And even the words "her facial outline was Stygian" used to describe Thalis imply that the nobility WAS NOT "racially" different from the priest/warrior caste(s). Conan didn't seem to notice differences with other Stygian girls in her face and he'd never met a Stygian princess before her !

In THA, written AFTER TGitB, REH talked about ruling casteS. No racial difference between nobility and priests/warriors in THA !

Why didn't Akivasha or Thalis boast about their giant-king blood ? In fact, why does REH scrupulously avoid ever mentioning the giant-kings except in TGitB, which was written before THA ?
Gonar is described as "scaly", with "glowing yellow eyes". He's also a hundred years old. Is he a giant-king ?


BTW, folks, how many times were REH's females of lighter skin than the males of the same race ?
Akivasha is claimed to have been of the giant-king race because she was white-skinned. So was B?lit. Was B?lit also descended from Set ?
Also, Zabibi/Nefertari (who appears to have some Stygian origins) is described as "ivory-skinned". Shouldn't she be lolling on cushions in Luxur or Khemi ? Is she of g-k blood ? How is this possible if she is not noble ?

In a lot of REH's stories, the girls are very light-skinned. And the more beautiful the chick is, the lighter is her skin.


However, the final argument against the giant-kings=Acheronians theory is in the beginning of this thread: REH said in the synopsis for THotD that Acheron was an HYBORIAN kingdom. Fernando, I do agree that REH sometimes changed things between a synopsis/draft and a published story.
But IF he had been building an "Elder Race=giant-kings=Acheronians" paradigm for NINE YEARS (curiously, without ever writing a WORD about Acheron before 1934 ), then how COULD he have made this confusion about the ancestry of the Acheronians in the synopsis ?

Edited by Axerules, 10 October 2007 - 04:33 AM.

[deuce]

I've just read the THotD's synopsis, and my conclusion is very simple: Acheronians WERE NOT Hyborians. Robert E. Howard, in one People of the Black Circle's synopsis, for example, said Kerim Shah and Conan fought for Yasmina and the Cimmerian won. But in the defitive version - the tale - the Turanian was hideously killed by the Master of Yimsha.
In the Red Nails's draft, Valeria uses a golden band in her hair, but in the tale that band is crimson (the only two things I believe to be Howard's really opinion in that story are the burn of Valadelad and the history, told by Valeria to Conan, about Red Ortho had killed the former commander of the ship Valeria left - about these two points, REH did an omission, not a contradition when he rewrote Red Nails).

Hey Fernando! First off, I just want to say that I welcome anyone who is deeply interested in the "history" that REH so carefully constructed for his yarns. You mention "contradiction" and "omission". Why is the fact that REH doesn't come right out and say, "Xaltotun was an Hyborian" in the final draft a "contradiction" and NOT an "omission"? I believe that Taranaich and I have demonstrated that Howard subtly indicated Xaltotun's "Hyborian-ness" (see posts #1 & 5).

I could give you several examples like that ones above - the relationship draft/synopsis vs. tale -, but I believe that REH's tales are the defitive version of his conception about places, characters, people... However, somethings he wrote in the drafts and/or synopsis are, in my opinion, worth to be included in the tale's plot - when the tale omits them without contradict them.

I couldn't have put it better myself, Fernando. Your English is quite good, BTW. I also believe that any final draft takes precedence over any contradiction in a synopsis or early draft. I also believe that details that DON'T contradict the final draft are valid. "Valadelad" is one example. "Hyborian Acheron" is another.

In The Hour of the Dragon Howard changed his mind when changed the synopis into tale. So, I still believe that Acheronians = Giant Kings. Though I don't agree with Rippke's timeline in some points, I think he's sure about others, like Acheron's origins...

If you don't mind my asking, Fernando, how do you know that "Howard changed his mind" when he turned his "Dragon" synopsis into the first draft (which we haven't seen) and on into the final draft? We do have his "Notes" for the novel. Nothing about "giant/monster kings" there. As I've noted (see Post #27), it seems very strange that REH should suddenly, completely "shift gears" and toss in this "g-k" stuff without a whisper of it anywhere, especially since the "giant/monster kings" seem to be "Sons of Set" (ie, giant, human-headed serpents). Without solid contradiction, of which there is not one iota, I am compelled to go with what REH stated in his synopsis for "THotD".

as well as Nordheimrs' one (the The Hyboryan Age essay and the tale Valley of the Worm confirm together that Snow Ape Men were, in Howard's conception, the Norsemen's ancestors).

I was totally unaware that anyone disputed the "Nordheimr came from snow-apes" paradigm.

Other important point is the Xaltotun's appearence. Is is white, but not grey-eyed neither tawny-haired like many of Hyborians that lived 3,000 years before Conan. His features (height, color of hair and eyes, and the eyes' shine) are very similar to Akivasha (doubtless a Stygian noble and, in my point of view, a giant-king's daughter), Thalis from Xuthal of the Dusk (another Stygian noble) and Thuron's ones - this last one, from the Kull's tale The Altar and the Scorpion, belongs, in my opinion, to giant king's ancestors.

Fernando, I am NOT trying to be rude, but I have to ask... You've stated that you've read the synopsis, but have you read all of the preceding posts? Neither I nor Robert E. Howard EVER tried to say that the Acheronians were "pureblooded Hyborians". According to Howard, NONE of the "Hyborian" nations of Conan's time were "pure", yet, they were STILL "Hyborian". So, holding the Acheronians to the "blonde/grey-eyed" standard is going far beyond what REH himself did. Actually, Xaltotun doesn't sound THAT much different, physically, than Trocero. Or Tarascus. Or Brodir the Black in The Grey God Passes. Did Brodir bear g-k blood? Actually, my ancestor in the Civil War (of Irish/English/Scottish/Tsalagi/Melungeon extraction) was 6', strongly-built, pale, black-haired, and dark-eyed. Maybe I have "g-k" blood. As I've noted more than once: Robert E. Howard's description of Xaltotun remained the same from synopsis to final draft. In the synopsis Xaltotun was "an Hyborian". If REH's initial description of Xaltotun was "Hyborian", how does the same description become a "non-Hyborian contradiction" by the final draft? We aren't dealing with a "Hyborian Age essay" timeline situation in "Dragon". REH began changing all of that in The Scarlet Citadel.The Hyborian migrations took "ages" (just like the Indo-European ones). When Acheron began its imperial march, there was already an "Elder" Koth, an Elder Corinthia and an Elder Ophir; all were Hyborian kingdoms. Hyperborea had very likely switched landlords. In fact, some of the "cadre" that established Acheron may have been Hyperborean expatriates, versed in "civilization", slavery, and sorcery(?). The dark hair/eye "taint" could have come from multiple directions (as could the "sorcerous blood").

A few more observations (it's late )... Concerning the "eye-shine" of Xaltotun and Akivasha: one was a sorcerer and the other was a vampire. Analogous, non-"giant-king" examples can be found within Howard's body of work.
The "prehistoric" Stygians of "QotBC" appear to be at a very primitive level of Copper/Bronze Age technology (CoC,p.139). Yet we are supposed to believe that these same "prehistoric Stygians" overwhelmed god-like "giant/monster kings". THEN, those same g-k's, after defeat by the raggedy-a$$ "Khemites"/proto-Stygians, packed up and sailed for pleasant Hyborian lands (why they had a navy, I don't know). Here we run into a "post-'THA'/Acheron" conundrum. Since Acheron throws the entire THA essay (timeline-wise) out of whack, when might this "giant/monster-king exodus" occur? It might be when the Cimmerians and Picts were at their pre-Hyborian height OR when the Hyborians were just showing up. Either way, the g-k's (already decimated by the "Khemites") are able to accomplish a naval invasion against born-again-hard barbarians defending their home territory. Let us remember that these self-same "giant-kings" couldn't hold off ragged, dusky "Khemites" when they (the "giant-kings") had the freakin' Styx for a moat. Is there ONE SINGLE STYGIAN MALE THAT IS WHITE-SKINNED? Thugra Khotan? Thutothmes? Thutmekri?

There are THREE "pedigreed" members of the "Elder Race" (as I recall) in the works of Robert E. Howard: Tuzun Thune, an unnamed girl and Karon, the ferryman on the River Stagus. As Axerules has pointed out, the first two sure don't sound like what has been mooted about as the "archetype" of an "Elder Racian"/giant-king. It might also be pointed out that all three have speaking parts, yet none boast of their illustrious, powerful, semi-divine kin to the South (who never lifted an oh-so-white finger to aid their oppressed brethren).

I asked Mr. Rippke about Guron/Thuron on the "Map of Kull's World" thread (Post #26). I haven't heard back.

[Fernando]

All right, Axe and deuce. It's a matter of opinion. The (several) Howard's texts can be understood of many and different forms - an example of this are the differents points of view Rippke and I have about Negari. I respect your opinions, but I particulary still believe Acheron was founded by giant-kings, right?

Atenciously:

Fernando.

[Patrice Louinet]

Hi everyone; Deuce invited me to join the fray, so...
First thing: Howard mentions Acheron in all drafts of THE HOUR OF THE DRAGON, and ONLY in that tale. No mention whatsoever in any other story/draft, published or unpublished, letter, whatnot...
Deuce asked me if I could find any mention of Xaltotun as a Hyborian in the first draft of the novel, and I don't think it mentions this. I have searched the text, finding all mentions of Xaltotun and Acheron, but in none of these is it stated, explicitly or not, that he is a Hyborian.
Where exactly is it stated that Xaltotun is an Hyborian? (other than the synopsis, I mean?)

Patrice

[deuce]

Hi everyone; Deuce invited me to join the fray, so...
First thing: Howard mentions Acheron in all drafts of THE HOUR OF THE DRAGON, and ONLY in that tale. No mention whatsoever in any other story/draft, published or unpublished, letter, whatnot...
Deuce asked me if I could find any mention of Xaltotun as a Hyborian in the first draft of the novel, and I don't think it mentions this. I have searched the text, finding all mentions of Xaltotun and Acheron, but in none of these is it stated, explicitly or not, that he is a Hyborian.
Where exactly is it stated that Xaltotun is an Hyborian? (other than the synopsis, I mean?)

Patrice

First off, Patrice, thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to respond. I had a feeling that REH wouldn't belabor the point about Xaltotun/Acheron being of Hyborian extraction after he wrote it in the synopsis. I simply wanted all the cards on the table. That way nobody has to say, "If we only..." I assume that there are no mentions of "giant-kings" or the "Elder Race" in any of the four(?) drafts of "Dragon"?

[Patrice Louinet]

Hi everyone; Deuce invited me to join the fray, so...
First thing: Howard mentions Acheron in all drafts of THE HOUR OF THE DRAGON, and ONLY in that tale. No mention whatsoever in any other story/draft, published or unpublished, letter, whatnot...
Deuce asked me if I could find any mention of Xaltotun as a Hyborian in the first draft of the novel, and I don't think it mentions this. I have searched the text, finding all mentions of Xaltotun and Acheron, but in none of these is it stated, explicitly or not, that he is a Hyborian.
Where exactly is it stated that Xaltotun is an Hyborian? (other than the synopsis, I mean?)

Patrice

First off, Patrice, thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to respond. I had a feeling that REH wouldn't belabor the point about Xaltotun/Acheron being of Hyborian extraction after he wrote it in the synopsis. I simply wanted all the cards on the table. That way nobody has to say, "If we only..." I assume that there are no mentions of "giant-kings" or the "Elder Race" in any of the four(?) drafts of "Dragon"?

No mention whatsoever in any of the Conan drafts.

Patrice

[deuce]

Thanks, Patrice. I'd say that your information pretty well defines the parameters of our discussion.

[Patrice Louinet]

Thanks, Patrice. I'd say that your information pretty well defines the parameters of our discussion.

Well, since what REH wrote neither denies nor confirms what you all are arguing about, I guess you are going to have some more fun!

Patrice

[Pictish Scout]

If Xaltotun isn't a hyborian so what is he? At least his name doesn't sound hyborian. Even the "eastern hyborians" had these "roman/greek" names: Amalrus, Strabonus, Alcemides, Taramis, Astreas, Khossus, etc. But wizards like exotic names
Tsotha-lanti, who I thought was a Kothian, in fact (acording to the legend) was of Zamoran blood. No hyborian name.

About Xaltotun, Orastes ( a hyborian wizard) said: " My ancestors were clean men, without any demoniacal taint; it is only I who have sunk into the pits, and can sin only to the extent of my personal individuality. Out behind Xaltotun lie a thousand centuries of black magic and diabolism, an ancient tradition of evil. He is beyond our conception not only because he is a wizard himself, but also because he is the son of a race of wizards."

[deuce]

If Xaltotun isn't a hyborian so what is he? At least his name doesn't sound hyborian. Even the "eastern hyborians" had these "roman/greek" names: Amalrus, Strabonus, Alcemides, Taramis, Astreas, Khossus, etc. But wizards like exotic names
Tsotha-lanti, who I thought was a Kothian, in fact (acording to the legend) was of Zamoran blood. No hyborian name.

About Xaltotun, Orastes ( a hyborian wizard) said: " My ancestors were clean men, without any demoniacal taint; it is only I who have sunk into the pits, and can sin only to the extent of my personal individuality. Out behind Xaltotun lie a thousand centuries of black magic and diabolism, an ancient tradition of evil. He is beyond our conception not only because he is a wizard himself, but also because he is the son of a race of wizards."

Hey Scout! As I've said before, Xaltotun was no "pure" Hyborian. The Acheronian Hyborians intermingled with some other race(s). What that race was may be impossible to identify now. What made the Zamorians a "race of devils"? Noone seems agitated about that. Scholars from Germany, during the Renaissance, took classical Latin names. Xaltotun may be an analogous example (in an analogous location). You don't seem to be worried that the Stygians have a Grecian name (derived from the name of their river). What about the dark, bestial people of the Nemedian hills? REH didn't always derive descent in a patrilineal fashion. His own personal genealogy is an example (which Patrice will hopefully enlighten us about soon ). Another example is Cormac FitzGeoffrey...

"A true son of the most indomitable and savage race that ever trod the bloodstained fields of battle..." (from Hawks of Outremer)

Cormac's father was a Norman, his mother, a Gael. REH continually stresses Cormac's Irishness, despite CFG's Norman paternity. In the above quote, Howard was NOT talking about the Normans, he was talking about the Gaels (descendants of the Cimmerians, BTW). I posit that REH (through Orastes) was NOT speaking of Xaltotun's Hyborian heritage. I think Orastes "doth protest too much". He says that the "younger kingdoms" waxed great upon the ruins of Acheron. It reminds me of Third Reich Nazi Deutschlanders who ignored the Roman, Hun and Jewish blood in their veins. The "old Road of Kings" is still there, never torn up, a legacy of Acheron. The "thousand centuries" of sorcerous blood could have come from some Thurian Age remnant (including the Zamorians and their "unclassified tribe") or the Stygians, whose dark empire to the south was given an extended timeline beginning with The Scarlet Citadel. Perhaps even some "taint" from the Hyperboreans.

I admit, it would've been nice if Howard had given us more Acheronian data to work with. Still, the synopsis says what it says. All evidence points to Acheron being a spontaneous creation of REH in 1934, with no 8-9 year period of "Elder Race/giant-king" build-up. It's also quite clear that the Acheronians weren't simply "northern Stygians".

[deuce]

Thanks, Patrice. I'd say that your information pretty well defines the parameters of our discussion.

Well, since what REH wrote neither denies nor confirms what you all are arguing about, I guess you are going to have some more fun!

Patrice

Patrice, I assume you mean that REH never again mentioned the Hyborian origins of Xaltotun/Acheron AFTER the synopsis.

[Patrice Louinet]

Among other things, yes. But the gist of the thing is that you have diverging theories on various points, and the texts don't give any definite answer. From that moment on, it's only up to your interpretations of said texts.

Patrice

[timeless]

How cool is it to have Patrice Louinet on these boards! Love your work, Patrice.

Edited by timeless, 13 October 2007 - 09:16 PM.

[deuce]

Among other things, yes. But the gist of the thing is that you have diverging theories on various points, and the texts don't give any definite answer. From that moment on, it's only up to your interpretations of said texts.

Patrice

That's a given. As I stated before, I wanted the content (or lack thereof) of the texts to be presented (or at least, encapsulated) so that the discussion could move forward with the least amount of ambiguity. Even discussions of "actual" history end up as interpretations of texts/evidence.

[Patrice Louinet]

How cool is it to have Patrice Louinet on these boards! Love your work, Patrice.

Thanks. I have been immersed in Conan 1 - again! - these past few months, overseeing the French edition of the books and haven't been nearly as active as I would like to be. Too many irons I guess.

Patrice

Edited by Patrice Louinet, 13 October 2007 - 09:24 PM.

[timeless]

Votre pr?sence est appr?ci?e, mon ami.

[Pictish Scout]

If Xaltotun isn't a hyborian so what is he? At least his name doesn't sound hyborian. Even the "eastern hyborians" had these "roman/greek" names: Amalrus, Strabonus, Alcemides, Taramis, Astreas, Khossus, etc. But wizards like exotic names
Tsotha-lanti, who I thought was a Kothian, in fact (acording to the legend) was of Zamoran blood. No hyborian name.

About Xaltotun, Orastes ( a hyborian wizard) said: " My ancestors were clean men, without any demoniacal taint; it is only I who have sunk into the pits, and can sin only to the extent of my personal individuality. Out behind Xaltotun lie a thousand centuries of black magic and diabolism, an ancient tradition of evil. He is beyond our conception not only because he is a wizard himself, but also because he is the son of a race of wizards."

Hey Scout! As I've said before, Xaltotun was no "pure" Hyborian. The Acheronian Hyborians intermingled with some other race(s). What that race was may be impossible to identify now. What made the Zamorians a "race of devils"? Noone seems agitated about that. Scholars from Germany, during the Renaissance, took classical Latin names. Xaltotun may be an analogous example (in an analogous location). You don't seem to be worried that the Stygians have a Grecian name (derived from the name of their river). What about the dark, bestial people of the Nemedian hills? REH didn't always derive descent in a patrilineal fashion. His own personal genealogy is an example (which Patrice will hopefully enlighten us about soon ). Another example is Cormac FitzGeoffrey...

"A true son of the most indomitable and savage race that ever trod the bloodstained fields of battle..." (from Hawks of Outremer)

Cormac's father was a Norman, his mother, a Gael. REH continually stresses Cormac's Irishness, despite CFG's Norman paternity. In the above quote, Howard was NOT talking about the Normans, he was talking about the Gaels (descendants of the Cimmerians, BTW). I posit that REH (through Orastes) was NOT speaking of Xaltotun's Hyborian heritage. I think Orastes "doth protest too much". He says that the "younger kingdoms" waxed great upon the ruins of Acheron. It reminds me of Third Reich Nazi Deutschlanders who ignored the Roman, Hun and Jewish blood in their veins. The "old Road of Kings" is still there, never torn up, a legacy of Acheron. The "thousand centuries" of sorcerous blood could have come from some Thurian Age remnant (including the Zamorians and their "unclassified tribe") or the Stygians, whose dark empire to the south was given an extended timeline beginning with The Scarlet Citadel. Perhaps even some "taint" from the Hyperboreans.

I admit, it would've been nice if Howard had given us more Acheronian data to work with. Still, the synopsis says what it says. All evidence points to Acheron being a spontaneous creation of REH in 1934, with no 8-9 year period of "Elder Race/giant-king" build-up. It's also quite clear that the Acheronians weren't simply "northern Stygians".

I was just getting more questions into this discution. I was thinking about the name of this and other wizards and I do think "naming" is important to get Xaltotun's or Acheron cultural background.
Yes, Stygia is a Greek name, just like Cimmeria and Atlantis but in the Hyborian Age they had nothing to do with the actual classic world.

Maybe Stygia and Cimmeria were the names hyborians gave to these lands. And it is by this naming that we know them.
The hyborian kingdoms, at least in my opinion, got a lot from the greco-roman world ( or what became of that in the "dark ages"). It is only natural as the Greco-Roman world was the zenith of western civilization in the ancient world. And so we got that hyborian wizard with an alien name, he is not Xaltotunus nor Xaltotunis but XALTOTUN.
At the moment I think that Acheron ( also a Greek name) was founded by Hyborians but they got their blood mixed. I'm not sure if when Acheron fell there was any "pure" hyborian alive. Acheronians seam to be a mixed race, half hyborians half something else we don't know. If so maybe it is not correct to call them hyborians as they were now mixed at the ending of the empire.
First I thought wizards had weird names like Tsotha-Lanti who I saw as a Kothian. After re-reading TSC I got that he was in fact (or legend) a Zamoran. There was an hyborian guy who was a wizard that still had his hyborian name: Orastes.
Xaltotun doesn't look like a hyborian name not even a Stygian one to me, even with that "TOT" in the middle. I think his name comes from another race or culture that was dominant or well accepted in Acheron. If there is any hyborian character without a Latinized/Greek name please post it and I'll forget that naming thing. It is possible I'm mistaken.

Yes some germans had latinized names but there was a cultural/political/religious background that linked them to the Greco-Roman world, after all germans had their own Roman Empire

[deuce]

Hey Scout! I'd really, really like to reply right now, but I HAVE TO head over to Missouri. Running late as is. I'll get back with y'all tomorrow evening.