[BIFlight]

Once again, my tendency to think way to much about totally geeky subjects has me on a strange tangent.

Lately, I've been pondering how Conan would have reacted to a specific ancient civilization: the Spartans. The two seem to be an interesting contrast of values and outlooks.

On the one hand, the Spartans were everything Conan hated: a rigid, strict society built upon endless laws, one peopled by stoic men and women with everything in society geared toward militaristic gains and outlooks (no fun in that for a man of "gigantic mirths," is there?). Not to mention, free Spartans outnumbered slaves 15 to 1, and we know how Conan would feel about that.

On the other hand, Sparta was a *civilization* not of purfurmed merchants and arrogant weaklings, but of hardy men and women raised to be their utmost mentally and physically. Each and every one of them lived to be and do the best they could for their state, giving their lives bravely and refusing to bow down to other authority. They were fearless, physically fit, and more than a little ornery--all things I think our Cimmerian would have appreciated.

So, any thoughts on this? If Conan had wandered into ancient Sparta (and inevitably, found himself fighting with and/or against them), what might he have thought of these "civilized barbarians?"

[Sermon Bath]

I think Conan would have been a bit uncomfortable with the fact that spartan soldiers were expected to take a fellow soldier as a lover because it was considered unmanly to spend to much time at home with their wives........

[Mikey_C]

xssurdinynexes, on Oct 11 2007, 02:40 PM, said:

I think Conan would have been a bit uncomfortable with the fact that spartan soldiers were expected to take a fellow soldier as a lover because it was considered unmanly to spend to much time at home with their wives........

Well, I'll b*ggered! That's something they left out of 300...

[Sermon Bath]

well, I guess you can always check out alexander!!! Not a spartan but pretty close I guess

[Pictish Scout]

I don't think he would pay much atention. I mean, it is possible that he had found some cities like Sparta in the hyborian Corinthia with his civil wars. He would say something like: " hum.. what a big military camp. Nice, the women fight too. But no drinking, no nightlife, just military discipline? Boooring. Better go to Athens or the other greek cities in Asia Minor."

[Mikey_C]

I was sort of aware of this among the Ancient Greeks in general. It's a neat paradox how an excess of machismo can lead to what seems to us to be its opposite. I'm Conan would be highly impressed by the Spartans' fighting skills and general hardiness, but I can't see him fitting into their society very well.

[Scott Oden]

The whole topic of ancient Greek (and Persian) homosexuality is about as convoluted as it gets. I've studied the different cultures for a few years, now, and I still don't have much in the way of a comprehensive understanding of it. As Pictish Scout said, Conan might have run into something similar among the city-states of Corinthia or in Argos.

In our own ancient world, the whole notion of male/male relationships differed depending on the region. It was highly ritualized in Sparta (and I want to say I read in both Paul Cartledge's The Spartans, Robert Flacelière's Life in Ancient Greece at the Time of Pericles, and James Davidson's Courtesans and Fishcakes that actual penetration was taboo unless the recepient was a prostitute or a slave -- the relationships were intended more as a teacher/student dynamic); the rules were somewhat less stringent at Athens and Thebes, and more along the lines of the Homeric ideal in Macedonia. In Corinth, famed for its female courtesans, it was frowned upon. And if I recall correctly, it was rigorously discouraged among the Aegean Islands and in the Greek city-states of Asia Minor.

The Persians practiced it with their eunuchs, while Egyptian religion proscribed male/male relationships -- one of the Negative Confessions asked of the dead before the throne of Osiris was (paraphrasing here) "I have not had sexual congress with another man".

Ultimately, I think Conan would have raised an army and taken the too-rigid Spartans apart, then gone back to carousing in the fleshpots of Corinth

Great question, BIFlight!

Best,

Scott


PS: pothos.org has an excellent essay on Alexander's sexuality by Dr. Jeanne Reames-Zimmerman. It's well worth a read (if you're interested in such things).

This post has been edited by Scott Oden: 12 October 2007 - 05:52 AM

[Kortoso]

I have a feeling that Cimmerians and Spartans would have had a lot in common.

[Pictish Scout]

Kortoso, on Oct 12 2007, 05:15 PM, said:

I have a feeling that Cimmerians and Spartans would have had a lot in common.

Yes, I agree but Conan is an unusual Cimmerian. And he is the ultimate individualist warrior. He would be an alien in the group focused society of Sparta.

[Kortoso]

So you're saying he wouldn't feel at home in Cimmeria either?

[Scott Oden]

Kortoso, on Oct 12 2007, 11:15 AM, said:

I have a feeling that Cimmerians and Spartans would have had a lot in common.

I have to respectfully disagree. While we like to romanticize the Spartans as the ultimate warrior culture, in reality they were xenophobic communists who smothered individuality in favor of the Common Good -- which was most often the utter subjugation of their neighbors inside the Peloponnese. They had one shining moment -- Thermopylae -- and within two hundred years they became puppets of the very Persians Leonidas died fighting. By Alexander's day, the Spartans were militarily impotent.

Conan -- and probably most Cimmerians -- is the ultimate individual, an enemy of despots and tyrants of every stripe (especially if they wanted him to toe the line) and as effective alone as with a cadre of fighters. More effective, some might say. With the Spartans, while they were perhaps taught to fight alone, their entire society was based on the hoplite phalanx. The swords they were accustomed to using were a little larger than a modern butcher knife; they were handy with the spear, but their true advantage lay in their armor -- it took another Greek phalanx to crack that carapace. Their armor was also their greatest liability: it hampered tactical movement and robbed them of peripheral vision and hearing. Only a handful of Spartan generals ever explored beyond the inculcated philosophy of phalanx warfare: Brasidas and Lysander during the Peloponnesian War; Agesilaus, who campaigned against the Persians in Asia Minor, and perhaps a few others.

Like the Theban general Epaminondas, at Mantinea in 362 BC, King Conan would have had a gulletful of Sparta's arrogance and high-handedness and crushed them underfoot

Just my 2 obols' worth . . .

Scott

This post has been edited by Scott Oden: 12 October 2007 - 07:55 PM

[Bonesaw]

^^^^^^^^^

That was some serious wisdom right there.

Good stuff to ponder.

[Mikey_C]

Kortoso, on Oct 12 2007, 06:45 PM, said:

So you're saying he wouldn't feel at home in Cimmeria either?

Interesting point - because he didn't stay there did he?

Thumbs up for Scott's informed contribution.

[Pictish Scout]

Mikey_C, on Oct 12 2007, 09:00 PM, said:

Kortoso, on Oct 12 2007, 06:45 PM, said:

So you're saying he wouldn't feel at home in Cimmeria either?

Interesting point - because he didn't stay there did he?

Yup, thats it. For some reason in the very first Conan story we are told that King Conan is not like the other Cimmerians.

[Sermon Bath]

well, he certainly got the heck out of cimmeria quick enough

[Kortoso]

Pictish Scout, on Oct 12 2007, 02:11 PM, said:

Mikey_C, on Oct 12 2007, 09:00 PM, said:

Kortoso, on Oct 12 2007, 06:45 PM, said:

So you're saying he wouldn't feel at home in Cimmeria either?

Interesting point - because he didn't stay there did he?

Yup, thats it. For some reason in the very first Conan story we are told that King Conan is not like the other Cimmerians.

So you're saying that Cimmerians were like the Spartans, then? Help me undertand, I am a little confused.

[John Maddox Roberts]

Conan would have loved Sparta because Sparta was full of women. The men were all away in military camps. He'd have taken a look around and yelled, "Bring on the wine and the hot babes!" Then he'd have been outta there before the men got wind of what was happening.

[Pictish Scout]

Kortoso, on Oct 12 2007, 11:29 PM, said:

Pictish Scout, on Oct 12 2007, 02:11 PM, said:

Mikey_C, on Oct 12 2007, 09:00 PM, said:

Kortoso, on Oct 12 2007, 06:45 PM, said:

So you're saying he wouldn't feel at home in Cimmeria either?

Interesting point - because he didn't stay there did he?

Yup, thats it. For some reason in the very first Conan story we are told that King Conan is not like the other Cimmerians.

So you're saying that Cimmerians were like the Spartans, then? Help me undertand, I am a little confused.

Well I don't think Cimmerians were much like Spartans. Spartans had a very organized hierarchy, they were civilized, State power divided between 3 different groups ( 2 kings, Elders and Ephors, if I remember well) and they were a minority in their own realm, the majority were slaves and second class "citizens". They even had a "secret police" and had some little "slave wars" to control the slave population. It seams like Orwel's 1984, Blade Runner, etc in the ancient world.
Sparta seams to me more like a distopia. For the spartan man it isn't the State that serves the citizen, but the citizen has to serve the state. Greek Philosofers loved Sparta for their discipline and zeal to serve the Law, also for their simple lives. No gold, no orgies, no parties. Only the barracks, soldier rations and lots of exercise. Hell, Conan would hate it. Where is the fun?

Cimmerians lived in a dark land ( at least it is what I got from REH stories). They were dark and gloomy people. The land didn't help them to get along with eachother. Clans and tribes seamed to be in intermitent war ( hum... like the Greek city-states). I don't think Cimmerians had any LAW or kings or even a crystalized hierarchy. The notion of State ( so dear to the Spartans) was totaly unkown to the cimmerian, in my opinion. Even the relationship with their main god was a distant one. I don't think they had an organized religion either. They didn't even know they were once Atlanteans. Spartans "knew" they were Dorians, children of Heracles, and that was part of their way of life.

Cimmerians seamed to be very reluctant to unite.They were a very indiviadulistic race ( as strange as it may seam), Sparta undertood and needed the streangth of the group, and the power of a strong state over the group (being that Spartans, Free Dorians yet not Spartans, and the Slaves).

I don't see much in Common between Cimmerians and Spartans. They were both warriors, but Sparta was focused almost only in war. Sparta was a big military camp where only the soldiers had rights. All the rest worked for that warrior class and I don't think there was much social mobility. I'm not sure if Cimmerians had those social divisions, it is possible as many ancient cultures were formed by castes. If so, What was Conan's social class? Was he part of the warrior class ( the nobles?) of Cimmeria? It is possible as he knows how to fight with a sword when he has 16. If he was a commoner he wouldn't have much time to play with swords. Being son of a blacksmith could mean he was part of a "holy" caste. In some cultures the blacksmith is like a holyman.

But even with a caste system and strong warrios I don't think Cimmerians had much in common with Spartans. Caste System and Strong Warriors were part of history of almost any nation in the world.

[BIFlight]

Darned if there haven't been some damn insightful posts here.

Mostly what I was thinking with the contrast was those parts of Spartan culture that clashed with the elements REH "picked on" in his view of civilization vs. barbarism, as illustrated in typical Conan stories. I imagined that, for all the flaws he might see Sparta as having, Conan could respect *civilized* men who treated each other as equals (even if only a certain caste were "equal") and who were genuinely fit, powerful soldiers who didn't take crap from anyone. The legendary killing of the Persian messengers is a good example of this: where many other societies would have bowed and scraped, the Spartans committed an act that was considered utter blasphomy, tossing messengers into a well and taunting them even as they died. That reminds me of Conan--both entities simply refuse to be cowed or intimidated. They'll go down fighting before they'll spend one second submitting to another's will.

Anyway, that's just an example.

[Ironhand]

My own opinion only, but I think what that means, is that Conan might have respected individual Spartan warriors, but he wouldn't have respected the Spartan system. And if he saw a phalanx of Spartans fighting together, he might have perceived them as clockwork toys, or fighting robots. Certainly their collective, rigidly controlled fighting style absolutely wasn't his style.

This post has been edited by Ironhand: 14 October 2007 - 05:05 AM