62 replies to this topic

[Taranaich]

Following on the heels of Acheron, here's the Stygian thread.

Ok, let's get it started with a little exploration of Thoth-Amon in The Phoenix on the Sword:

"Listen, my lord. I was a great sorcerer in the south. Men spoke of Thoth-Amon as they spoke of Rammon."

Rammon, like Skelos and Vathelos, is but a name in the talrd of Conan, yet seems to be a figure of great power and renown if Thoth-Amon is to be believed. Could it be a corruption of Amun-Ra (Ra-Amun > Ramun > Rammon?)

Another tidbit from Queen of the Black Coast:

... survivors of butchered Stygian ships named Belit with curses, and a white warrior with fierce blue eyes; so the Stygian princes remembered this man long and long, and their memory was a bitter tree which bore crimson fruit in the years to come.

Is this foreshadowing to Conan's confrontation of Prince Kutamun in Black Colossus? I'm not convinced: it states princes, and the crimson fruit would have been very much their own in that case. I also agree with Dale Rippke in that BC comes before QotBC in Conan's life. Likewise, Phoenix can't be linked via the Princes. I personally think this is a hint to a much bigger event not chronicled by Howard, of an attack on Conan by the Stygian princes. Whether this was an assassination attempt, some sort of blackmail or even a full-scale war is unknown, but given the ominous "crimson fruit" phrase I'd wager it would be the latter.

But how would Stygia attack Aquilonia? They'd have to go through Argos, Zingara or Pictland for a sea invasion, and Shem, Koth and Ophir for a land invasion. Aquilonia would no doubt be weak from the occupation of the Nemedians, and Koth and Ophir would have probably been downsized after Scarlet Citadel, and with allies and vassals in Shem perhaps an overland invasion isn't so unlikely, especially since the last major conflict of the Stygians was the disastrous Argossean invasion some 20 years ago, so their military could be in better shape than the Hyborian lands'. And there's also the Black Ring to think about.

Feel free to contribute thoughts on Stygia.

[Pictish Scout]

ahhh Stygia, my favorite place in the Hyborian Age.

Yes I think Rammon ( that looks a lot like a spanish name) is derived from Ra Amun/Re Amon. It seams Rammon WAS a powerfull guy of times long past. Some kind of historical figure. "Men spoke of Thoth-Amon as they spoke of Rammon", If Rammon was still around they would be bitter rivals at least. So I think he is a famous Stygian fromt he past ( but maybe I'm missing some information on that one.)

"and their memory was a bitter tree which bore crimson fruit in the years to come."
It is hard to know what this crimson fruit is. It may mean only bad relations between Stygia and Aquilonia during Conan rulership. I don't think Stygia would risk an invasion war in the hyborian kingdoms just to get Conan... (hum... the similarity with the real warld was not intentional but it's interesting. Conan terrorizing the Stygian coast and latter he is associated to a kingdom's government. What Stygia would do about that?)

There was an essay about Stygia in an old SSOC, I don't know if some of you remember. It was very interesting, showing Stygia as a very conservative realm, very protective of the old ways ( Like Egypt or China when the Europeans started to arrive in the east). And it was a very xenophobic culture too. I don't think they are the evil empire or the expansionists who wants to control all the world. It isn't MORDOR of the Hyborian Age. They seam very defensive and not ofensive by nature. They started as nomads ( after losing their homeland to their lemurian slaves in the far east) and carved Stygia from an ancient pre-human civilization that they destroyed but also preserved and adopted its cultural traits ( cult of Set?). It seams that Stygia was much larger than the one we know in the age of Conan, eventualy they had to pull back south of the river Styx.

Maybe it was the most successful of the Hyborian Age kingdoms as they did keep the old ways untill their Religion was outlawed by the Bizantine Emperor in the 5th Century AD. Even though they were called Egyptians and not Stygians anymore. Even Vanir kings couldn't change their ways the same way Libian, Hyksos, Persians, Greeks adopted the ways of Egypt when they conquered that kingdom. They couldn't change the ways of that old race the inhabited the land before Stygians arrived.

I don't get why Dark Horse depicts Stygia like a far east culture though.

[Kortoso]

ahhh Stygia, my favorite place in the Hyborian Age.

Yes I think Rammon ( that looks a lot like a spanish name)

Ramon is a villain from a Clint Eastwood spaghetti western: "Aim for the heart, Ramon!"

[Ironhand]

Stygia lost its northern territories when Shem revolted. I think that Stygia was once imperialistic, but its despotic rule was so odious that at one time or another almost every Stygian colony or principality revolted and broke away from the empire, even when governed by satraps who were themselves Stygian. There are several examples in REH's writings of independant nations or city-states that are described as former Stygian colonies. Because of its inability to hold onto foreign territories, I imagine that Stygia eventually "settled down" to merely holding onto central Stygia proper, despite the power of its armies and sorcerors. Sort of like the metamorphosis of the USSR into the Republic of Russia.

The hostility of Stygia toward Conan seems to stem from his career as Amra the Pirate. But I can't imagine Stygia being so suicidally consumed by hatred as to mount an attempt to invade all the lands between it and Aquilonia, a superpower in its own right. Not unless it placed a lot of bribes. And how could it trust a bribed kingdom to stay bribed. The trick that worked against Conan could also work against Stygia.

[Taranaich]

Yes I think Rammon ( that looks a lot like a spanish name) is derived from Ra Amun/Re Amon. It seams Rammon WAS a powerfull guy of times long past. Some kind of historical figure. "Men spoke of Thoth-Amon as they spoke of Rammon", If Rammon was still around they would be bitter rivals at least. So I think he is a famous Stygian fromt he past ( but maybe I'm missing some information on that one.)

I'd agree. Perhaps Rammon was a sorcerer from the old Stygian empire, like Thugra Khotan.

"and their memory was a bitter tree which bore crimson fruit in the years to come."
It is hard to know what this crimson fruit is. It may mean only bad relations between Stygia and Aquilonia during Conan rulership. I don't think Stygia would risk an invasion war in the hyborian kingdoms just to get Conan... (hum... the similarity with the real warld was not intentional but it's interesting. Conan terrorizing the Stygian coast and latter he is associated to a kingdom's government. What Stygia would do about that?)

The thing is Howard was a very visual writer, anything red or of a similar hue usually means blood. Crimson fruit would seem to indicate actual bloodshed, as opposed to merely figurative "bad blood". If it was the latter, then surely it would just be "bitter fruit" or something similar.

There was an essay about Stygia in an old SSOC, I don't know if some of you remember. It was very interesting, showing Stygia as a very conservative realm, very protective of the old ways ( Like Egypt or China when the Europeans started to arrive in the east). And it was a very xenophobic culture too. I don't think they are the evil empire or the expansionists who wants to control all the world.

Stygia is certainly defensive in nature: every attempt to invade Stygia up to it's final destruction at the end of the Hyborian Age ends disastrously for the aggressor.

Something I should make clear that I didn't was that I wasn't necessarily implying Stygia as a whole nation would need to go to war against Aquilonia as a nation, rather that the princes (at least two, but probably more) challenge Conan himself. Not enough is known about Ctesphon to know whether he'd care or not, but since Prince Kutamun alone provided a most sizeable force in Black Colossus I'm sure princes from the Stygian coastlands would have a decent army of their own. One might wonder at the sense of a group of nobles deciding to march up to Aquilonia to take on Conan, but history is littered with stupid, vindictive noblemen who seek to resolve a grudge no matter the cost. I would also think that Stygia would be wary of the fact that the most powerful Hyborian nation is under the command of a man who's caused them substantial grief.

Stygia also seems to be strong enough to be an aggressor in a war. Though Ctesphon and the Black Ring don't seem to wish to expand their borders, Stygia is certainly no slouch in the war department, with nobles trained for war that bring down lions. If the nobles are trained for war, then what's the use in being a defensive nation? Stygia must be the victim of many attacks for the war nobles to make any sense, unless it's just plain force of habit, though considering how effective they seem to be I don't think that would be the case. The northern Black Kingdoms and disparate Shemites might raid or sack outlying Stygian settlements, but this surely doesn't explain the Stygian's continuation of raising nobles in the art of war.

In any case, the only reason I'd suggest an Aquilonian/Stygian conflict of some sort is that it seems the most reasonable explanation for "crimson fruits", but as was said it could mean a number of things, yet none seem as satisfying to me.

If it was an assassination attempt, then it would indicate that Conan, Zenobia or his loyalists were slain in a bloody manner. A Black Plague does not seem particularly "bloody" to me, though a visitation from a demon would likely be. In fact, if it was any attempt against Conan himself, then it would probably end up in failure, unless you believe that the Stygians finally did away with Conan. I generally doubt any assassination attempt by an acolyte of Set would be successful when Epimitreus is around.

I'm probably not making a great deal of sense (I'm certainly not suggesting Stygia just rampage over the Hyborian lands, a act which would likely unify all the Hyborian lands against Stygia to say the least), but I'm just maddened by the mystery of what the Stygian nobles did that would be alluded to as crimson fruits.

[Pictish Scout]

Stygia is certainly defensive in nature: every attempt to invade Stygia up to it's final destruction at the end of the Hyborian Age ends disastrously for the aggressor.

Final Destruction, what final destruction? Stygia had some big problems with their ruling class and the black kingdoms in the South. Then the Vanir came and took the land and the government. I think they forget their past, their culture, names and religion also. According to Howard Pharaohs boast descent from red-haired conquerors, but these same Pharaohs didn't have Vanir names, right? Neither worshiped Ymir. In fact they still worshiped SET and had serpents in their crowns. So Stygia wasn't destroyed, just changed its name to Egypt ( even that was a name given by the Classic Greeks.) Egyptians called their land KHEMET meaning THE BLACK ( land), can you see the echoes of KEMI in that? ( I'm mixing our reality to what became of the Hyborian Age). These Vanir continued the Stygian way, just replaced former kings. Stygia/Egypt never died, actually it was the longest living civilization in history just as Stygia was in the Hyborean Age. That dark pre-Stygian culture passed to Stygian rulers, then to Vanir rulers and to historical Egypt that had a powerful priest caste, serpent gods, dark temples and mysterious tombs. The state didn't change, the borders didn't change, religion didn't change, it seams the only thing that changed was the colour of the kings hairs.

The Vanir rule of Stygia/Egypt forms a paralel to the Ptolomaic Greek rule of Egypt. Greek kings adopted the Egyptian culture and were seen as the continuators of those great Pharaos of old. The last Pharaoh of Egypt was Cleopatra, a greek, as you know. Stygianized, all of them lol

About the "Crimson Fruits". I have to agree with your " more Bloody" interpretation. It seams very logic. But I don't know if those Stygian princes had the freedom to go to war on their own with state armies. I don't think Stygia was Feudal or had independent princes wasting state troops in some mad expedition in the north. Even Kutamun was a rebel prince.
Maybe I'm mistaken but it seams the power in Stygia was very centralized. King and Priests at the top, controling everything even the nobles ( just like Egypt). I don't see any prince getting the liberty to waste troops chasing for Conan. The only Stygian representative who could do that was the King or a big bad Wizard. Maybe these Crimson Fruits are "shadow wars" or a "Cold War" between Aquilonian and Stygian clients with lots of assassinations and beasts from other gulfs crossing to this world. Unless Howard was planing to change the history of the Hyborian Age.

[deuce]

Taranaich, I applaud your alacrity. Less than than a week after I foretold unto Scott Oden that there would be a "Stygia" thread, behold! You have made it so. Starting off with a bang, it would seem...

Rammon, like Skelos and Vathelos, is but a name in the talrd of Conan, yet seems to be a figure of great power and renown if Thoth-Amon is to be believed. Could it be a corruption of Amun-Ra (Ra-Amun > Ramun > Rammon?)?

A couple of speculations... Perhaps the mage who discovered/tamed the Heart of Ahriman and led Stygia to imperial glory? Or perhaps the sorcerer who stopped the Hyborians at the Styx? Maybe the "Stygian Moses" who led the "Khemites" out of the wastes into the Promised Land?

... survivors of butchered Stygian ships named Belit with curses, and a white warrior with fierce blue eyes; so the Stygian princes remembered this man long and long, and their memory was a bitter tree which bore crimson fruit in the years to come.

Is this foreshadowing to Conan's confrontation of Prince Kutamun in Black Colossus? I'm not convinced: it states princes, and the crimson fruit would have been very much their own in that case. I also agree with Dale Rippke in that BC comes before QotBC in Conan's life. Likewise, Phoenix can't be linked via the Princes. I personally think this is a hint to a much bigger event not chronicled by Howard, of an attack on Conan by the Stygian princes. Whether this was an assassination attempt, some sort of blackmail or even a full-scale war is unknown, but given the ominous "crimson fruit" phrase I'd wager it would be the latter.
But how would Stygia attack Aquilonia? They'd have to go through Argos, Zingara or Pictland for a sea invasion, and Shem, Koth and Ophir for a land invasion. Aquilonia would no doubt be weak from the occupation of the Nemedians, and Koth and Ophir would have probably been downsized after Scarlet Citadel, and with allies and vassals in Shem perhaps an overland invasion isn't so unlikely, especially since the last major conflict of the Stygians was the disastrous Argossean invasion some 20 years ago, so their military could be in better shape than the Hyborian lands'. And there's also the Black Ring to think about.

A "shadow war" during Conan's kingship is possible. What about his sojourns with the Zuagirs and down in the Black Kingdoms? Just throwing out ideas. It is possible that Howard sort of "forgot" about that line, but these are the kinds of problems we (don't) get paid to solve, right men?

[Taranaich]

[quote name='Pictish Scout' post='75180' date='Oct 16 2007, 11:06 PM']Final Destruction, what final destruction?[/quote]

Erm, the "terrific convulsions" which warped the earth's geography from the Hyborian lines to modern ones. Stygia pretty much remained intact as a nation until the end of the Hyborian Age, when it was destroyed along with the rest of the world. Though of course, remnants of Stygia's might would reappear in Egypt as you said.

[quote]About the "Crimson Fruits". I have to agree with your " more Bloody" interpretation. It seams very logic. But I don't know if those Stygian princes had the freedom to go to war on their own with state armies. I don't think Stygia was Feudal or had independent princes wasting state troops in some mad expedition in the north. Even Kutamun was a rebel prince.[/quote]

Well, whatever the setup of the government, Kutamun DID bring a substantial force to Shamla Pass:

"His warriors covered the desert with their numbers, and he had five thousand Stygian troops in war chariots under the rebel prince Kutamun."

"First was a long line of chariots, drawn by the great fierce horses of Stygia, with plumes on their heads - snorting and rearing as each naked driver leaned back, bracing his powerful legs, his dusky arms knotted with muscles. The fighting-men in the chariots were tall figures, their hawk-like faces set off by bronze helmets crested with a crescent supporting a golden ball. Heavy bows were in their hands. No common archers these, but nobles of the South, bred to war and the hunt, who were accustomed to bringing down lions with their arrows."

Pretty substantial troops there for a rebel army. Although I too doubt Stygia had a feudal government and had a more centralized military, the fact remains that somehow Kutamun had control of 5,000 formidable noble warriors, with horses, chariots and drivers (assuming the drivers were not counted among the warriors). Perhaps the Stygian government didn't have as much control over the outer reaches of Eastern Stygia, which would allow Kutamun to gather discontented or restless nobles for Natohk's war.

If the nobles with a grudge against Conan were capricious and powerful enough (considering they were connected to the navy and the powerful port of Khemi, they would seem so) then perhaps they could gather a force comparable to Kutamun's. They'd have to get through a few lands to do it (I don't think even 20,000 nobles would be enough to plow through Koth/Ophir/Shem), so perhaps they'd offer themselves up as mercenaries to any Hyborian realm attempting to invade Aquilonia, as Kutamun did for Natohk. If they really wanted to get Conan, then this would be a good way to go about it from a military perspective.

[quote]Maybe these Crimson Fruits are "shadow wars" or a "Cold War" between Aquilonian and Stygian clients with lots of assassinations and beasts from other gulfs crossing to this world. Unless Howard was planing to change the history of the Hyborian Age.[/quote]

I quite like that idea too. I don't think an Aquilonian/Stygian war would necessarily contradict the Hyborian Age essay considering it says nothing of the Argossean invasion of Stygia, or of course Acheron.

And let's not forget:

"I think he was king of Aquilonia for many years, in a turbulent and unquiet reign, when the Hyborian civilization had reached its most magnificent high-tide, and every king had imperial ambitions. At first he fought on the defensive, but I am of the opinion that at last he was forced into wars of aggression as a matter of self-preservation."

Whilst this obviously means Conan would fight against surrounding Hyborian realms, Stygian meddling might spur Conan into taking action against them: probably unsuccessful given Stygia's track record, but perhaps the crimson fruits could have been Conan's bloody retribution against the princes' attempts to mess with him.

[quote]Taranaich, I applaud your alacrity. Less than than a week after I foretold unto Scott Oden that there would be a "Stygia" thread, behold! You have made it so. Starting off with a bang, it would seem...[/quote]

Heh, is the subtitle good enough? I thought a serpent-related one would be a bit prosaic, and I always found "dark-bosomed" quite an evocative phrase, if a tad suggestive at first glance.

[quote]A couple of speculations... Perhaps the mage who discovered/tamed the Heart of Ahriman and led Stygia to imperial glory? Or perhaps the sorcerer who stopped the Hyborians at the Syx? Maybe the "Stygian Moses" who led the "Khemites" out of the wastes into the Promised Land?[/quote]

The way Thoth spoke about himself seemed to indicate he was feared as much as revered, so I'd suppose he'd be involved in some substantial military action like those mentioned.

[quote]A "shadow war" during Conan's kingship is possible. What about his sojourns with the Zuagirs and down in the Black Kingdoms?[/quote]

That's quite true, in my enthusiasm for a Stygian conflict I neglected his time as Black Kingdom chieftain. Maybe the princes discovered Amra became a war-chief of the Bamula (Vale of Lost Women) and petitioned with the King to do justice on the savage, taking a vast force south to destroy him. While they obviously didn't succeed, perhaps the Bamulas were wiped out or taken captive. The Darkstorm chronology just says he "realizes he doesn't care for the Bamulas", but I'd say having his tribe wiped out would be sufficient cause for him to flee west and join the Barachans. If they thought Conan was killed or at least lost in the treacherous Black Kingdoms, then that'd be reason for them to ignore his later appearance in Sukhmet (Red Nails).

Another possible indication that the crimson fruits were born after Conan's kingship: the Lion returned in The Hour of the Dragon. The slaughter of many Acolytes of the Black Ring, not to mention the slaying of a sacred Son of Set, would have been scandalous in Stygia. If witnesses seeing a bronze, black-haired giant with blue eyes were linked to tales of Amra's resurgence in the west, concurrent with King Conan missing in action, some Stygian might put two and two together and realise Conan = Amra. If the burning of Khemi wasn't enough to get Stygia's goat, then the slaying of an idol and a link to a Temple massacre (Conan only killed one Khitan, but how would the Stygians know that?) might well do, at least enough for the princes and the Black Ring to seek some form of revenge.

WAIT... Maybe the Princes were the commanders of the Stygian army that destroyed Almuric's army! That would certainly be considered crimson fruit, to utterly devastate the army Conan was a part of. Then again, how would the Stygians know Conan would be part of the army? And how would they know Conan was Amra?

[quote]Just throwing out ideas. It is possible that Howard sort of "forgot" about that line, but these are the kinds of problems we (don't) get paid to solve, right men?[/quote]

It would be a shame if Howard had plans for this storyline only to forget about it, though maybe he just wanted to tantalize folks like us decades later, like Tolkien's Tom Bombadil conundrum!

[Kortoso]

Quick question: Today we normally assume that "prince" refers to the son of a monarch, whereas in history it has meant many different things. In the Stygian context, are we sure that these "rebel princes" were sons of the king, or perhaps some analog to Aquilonia's barons, regional chiefs under varying degrees of control?

[deuce]

Quick question: Today we normally assume that "prince" refers to the son of a monarch, whereas in history it has meant many different things. In the Stygian context, are we sure that these "rebel princes" were sons of the king, or perhaps some analog to Aquilonia's barons, regional chiefs under varying degrees of control?

In the synopsis for "Colossus", REH states that Kutamun was the brother of the Stygian king (and brother of Thalis?). As for other "Stygian princes", that is still to be hashed out.

[Taranaich]

I'd wager the other Stygian princes were indeed related to the King. If Stygians valued children and desired large families as much as the Egyptians, then Csetphon could have had a pretty decent number of brothers and sons.

Is it implied that Csetphon was the brother of Kutamun, or was this the prior king?

[Pictish Scout]

I'd wager the other Stygian princes were indeed related to the King. If Stygians valued children and desired large families as much as the Egyptians, then Csetphon could have had a pretty decent number of brothers and sons.

Is it implied that Csetphon was the brother of Kutamun, or was this the prior king?

I'm not sure if Stygian princess had to be directly related to the King. What about the other noble blood lines of Wizards and Warriors Princes? Even with large royal families there has to be other members of nobility, not only Kings relatives. If Stygia was like the Egyptians they had a powerful and active nobility not necessarilly related to the King ( but could trace their bloodline to other ancient kings maybe, just like many noble families now adays).

It is interesting that Kutamun is presented as the Kings brother but that was in a draft. Even if Kutamun was prince with no blood bonds to the King he could gather a force of 5000 stygians or more in a rebelion. We don't know how he did that and why, but I think it has to do with religeous issues as he allied to Nathok. Even with centralized power famous and loved generals would have the suport of his men even to rebel against their king. I don't think, as a rule, that the Stygian princes ( the generals) had much freedom to make war.

[Taranaich]

I'm not sure if Stygian princess had to be directly related to the King. What about the other noble blood lines of Wizards and Warriors Princes? Even with large royal families there has to be other members of nobility, not only Kings relatives. If Stygia was like the Egyptians they had a powerful and active nobility not necessarilly related to the King ( but could trace their bloodline to other ancient kings maybe, just like many noble families now adays).

That's a good point actually.

It is interesting that Kutamun is presented as the Kings brother but that was in a draft. Even if Kutamun was prince with no blood bonds to the King he could gather a force of 5000 stygians or more in a rebelion. We don't know how he did that and why, but I think it has to do with religeous issues as he allied to Nathok. Even with centralized power famous and loved generals would have the suport of his men even to rebel against their king. I don't think, as a rule, that the Stygian princes ( the generals) had much freedom to make war.

It wasn't contradicted in the final story either though

However, the fact that the 5,000 Stygians were nobles means that Kutamun might just have been the highest ranking noble granted command of the Stygians by Natohk himself: if Kutamun was the brother of the king it would explain why he would be in charge. There might have been lesser princes among the host as captains or lieutenants. These nobles could have come from all over Stygia who joined Natohk and Kutamun for any number of reasons: malcontents dissatisfied with the king's rule, rebels fleeing from justice, worshippers of Thugra Khotan or otherwise tied with Kuthchemes, friends and allies of Kutamun, or even just bored gentry looking for adventure and plunder. The 5,000 nobles need not have started out as a singular entity after all.

The Rebel Princes need not have a large group of soldiers under their immediate command: they'd just have to gather some more dissatisfied, restless or bloodthirsty nobles to join them, a good number of them probably having a score to settle as well. It would just depend on how many individual nobles would be prepared to defy the king in order to follow the princes' designs: since Conan has a decent level of notoriety among the Stygians it could be a reasonable number. Of course, Khoraja looked a far easier target than Aquilonia, especially when backed up with a 100,000 man army.

[Kortoso]

So they were not 5,000 princes. That would make Kutamun special, probably more closely related to the king than the others. Interesting.

Would that make Murilo in Rogues the son of a king as well?

[Ironhand]

I think REH sometimes used the word "prince" loosely. For more than one country, he didn't bother to establish an elaborate hierarchy of knights, baronets, barons, viscounts, counts, dukes, archdukes, etc. Just used "prince" to refer to higher nobility. Sort of the same sort of concept as Machiavelli used in his book "The Prince". And in Shakespearean times, "Prince" was a generic term for "ruler", even kings.

And it's almost a given that any Stygian prince is going to be rebellious. The borders of Stygia are lousy with little nations and principalities that were formerly Stygian colonies.

Edited by Ironhand, 19 October 2007 - 12:19 AM.

[deuce]

I think REH sometimes used the word "prince" loosely. For more than one country, he didn't bother to establish an elaborate hierarchy of knights, baronets, barons, viscounts, counts, dukes, archdukes, etc. Just used "prince" to refer to higher nobility. Sort of the same sort of concept as Machiavelli used in his book "The Prince". And in Shakespearean times, "Prince" was a generic term for "ruler", even kings.

Hey Ironhand! I generally agree. However, it appears that in respect to Aquilonia and Nemedia, REH got a little more technical. Amalric, baron of Tor, was obviously a very powerful man, but he had no good claim to the throne, else he wouldn't have trifled with Tarascus. Without plunging into an intense study of the subject, it's my impression that (usually) when REH said "prince", he meant someone with a fairly close blood tie to the reigning monarch. Responding to Kortoso's question, I'd say that Murilo was perhaps the king's nephew or great-nephew. Having no clear shot at the throne, he resorted to intrigue.

And it's almost a given that any Stygian prince is going to be rebellious. The borders of Stygia are lousy with little nations and principalities that were formerly Stygian colonies.

Despite their bad press, the Stygians (at least their nobility) are a warrior race, "bred for war". You can't keep a desert lion like Kutamun in a cage.

[deuce]

[quote name='Taranaich' post='75231' date='Oct 17 2007, 04:42 PM']Erm, the "terrific convulsions" which warped the earth's geography from the Hyborian lines to modern ones. Stygia pretty much remained intact as a nation until the end of the Hyborian Age, when it was destroyed along with the rest of the world. Though of course, remnants of Stygia's might would reappear in Egypt as you said.[/quote]

Considering the "Brachen the Kelt" fragment, the Mediterranean inundation came quite late in the game. Hawk of Basti leads one to think that the Egyptians weren't THAT much different from their Stygian forebears (it's interesting to compare them to the Atlanteans of Negari).

[quote]Well, whatever the setup of the government, Kutamun DID bring a substantial force to Shamla Pass:

"His warriors covered the desert with their numbers, and he had five thousand Stygian troops in war chariots under the rebel prince Kutamun."
"First was a long line of chariots, drawn by the great fierce horses of Stygia, with plumes on their heads - snorting and rearing as each naked driver leaned back, bracing his powerful legs, his dusky arms knotted with muscles. The fighting-men in the chariots were tall figures, their hawk-like faces set off by bronze helmets crested with a crescent supporting a golden ball. Heavy bows were in their hands. No common archers these, but nobles of the South, bred to war and the hunt, who were accustomed to bringing down lions with their arrows."

Pretty substantial troops there for a rebel army. Although I too doubt Stygia had a feudal government and had a more centralized military, the fact remains that somehow Kutamun had control of 5,000 formidable noble warriors, with horses, chariots and drivers (assuming the drivers were not counted among the warriors). Perhaps the Stygian government didn't have as much control over the outer reaches of Eastern Stygia, which would allow Kutamun to gather discontented or restless nobles for Natohk's war.[/quote]

If a popular "viceory" revolts, all of Set's hells can erupt. The Kutamun/Ctesphon/Thoth-Amon dynamic needs to be explored further.

[quote]If the nobles with a grudge against Conan were capricious and powerful enough (considering they were connected to the navy and the powerful port of Khemi, they would seem so) then perhaps they could gather a force comparable to Kutamun's. They'd have to get through a few lands to do it (I don't think even 20,000 nobles would be enough to plow through Koth/Ophir/Shem), so perhaps they'd offer themselves up as mercenaries to any Hyborian realm attempting to invade Aquilonia, as Kutamun did for Natohk. If they really wanted to get Conan, then this would be a good way to go about it from a military perspective.[/quote]

In "Zamboula", it's implied that regal power is centered in Khemi. I have a scenario that I'll go into later.

[quote]I quite like that idea too. I don't think an Aquilonian/Stygian war would necessarily contradict the Hyborian Age essay considering it says nothing of the Argossean invasion of Stygia, or of course Acheron.

And let's not forget:

"I think he was king of Aquilonia for many years, in a turbulent and unquiet reign, when the Hyborian civilization had reached its most magnificent high-tide, and every king had imperial ambitions. At first he fought on the defensive, but I am of the opinion that at last he was forced into wars of aggression as a matter of self-preservation."

Whilst this obviously means Conan would fight against surrounding Hyborian realms, Stygian meddling might spur Conan into taking action against them: probably unsuccessful given Stygia's track record, but perhaps the crimson fruits could have been Conan's bloody retribution against the princes' attempts to mess with him. [/quote]

All in all, I think the "kingship" option most likely (though NOT how DH presented it).


[quote]Heh, is the subtitle good enough? I thought a serpent-related one would be a bit prosaic, and I always found "dark-bosomed" quite an evocative phrase, if a tad suggestive at first glance. [/quote]

Close enough to "perfect" for government work. Way to go, Taranaich!

[quote]That's quite true, in my enthusiasm for a Stygian conflict I neglected his time as Black Kingdom chieftain. Maybe the princes discovered Amra became a war-chief of the Bamula (Vale of Lost Women) and petitioned with the King to do justice on the savage, taking a vast force south to destroy him. While they obviously didn't succeed, perhaps the Bamulas were wiped out or taken captive. The Darkstorm chronology just says he "realizes he doesn't care for the Bamulas", but I'd say having his tribe wiped out would be sufficient cause for him to flee west and join the Barachans. If they thought Conan was killed or at least lost in the treacherous Black Kingdoms, then that'd be reason for them to ignore his later appearance in Sukhmet (Red Nails).

Another possible indication that the crimson fruits were born after Conan's kingship: the Lion returned in The Hour of the Dragon. The slaughter of many Acolytes of the Black Ring, not to mention the slaying of a sacred Son of Set, would have been scandalous in Stygia. If witnesses seeing a bronze, black-haired giant with blue eyes were linked to tales of Amra's resurgence in the west, concurrent with King Conan missing in action, some Stygian might put two and two together and realise Conan = Amra. If the burning of Khemi wasn't enough to get Stygia's goat, then the slaying of an idol and a link to a Temple massacre (Conan only killed one Khitan, but how would the Stygians know that?) might well do, at least enough for the princes and the Black Ring to seek some form of revenge.

WAIT... Maybe the Princes were the commanders of the Stygian army that destroyed Almuric's army! That would certainly be considered crimson fruit, to utterly devastate the army Conan was a part of. Then again, how would the Stygians know Conan would be part of the army? And how would they know Conan was Amra?[/quote]

I considered the "Almuric option", but it really doesn't square with the evidence. I still think the "kingship option" most likely.

Awesome thread, BTW.

[Pictish Scout]

Final Destruction, what final destruction?

Erm, the "terrific convulsions" which warped the earth's geography from the Hyborian lines to modern ones. Stygia pretty much remained intact as a nation until the end of the Hyborian Age, when it was destroyed along with the rest of the world. Though of course, remnants of Stygia's might would reappear in Egypt as you said.

I think Stygia survived quite well to the cathaclism. They just got up one day and VOI LA! there was land in the west. Ok, some earthquakes maybe. But I don't see much destruction in the end, just that Vanir invasion that originated the first line of Pharaohs in the Hybornian Age essay, if I remember well. I have to read it again soon. But look to what happned next to the historical Egypt. They were the same! It looks like they never abandoned the Stygian civilization. Thats why I say Stygia was the ONLY survivor civilization of that age and never lost their ways even when invaded.

Can anyone tell me where Howard took the idea of "Viking"/nordic Pharaohs? It seams weird as the first Pharaohs came from southern Egypt, a more African blood line and influence than the Northern Egypt. I think this was already known in the 30's.

Well, whatever the setup of the government, Kutamun DID bring a substantial force to Shamla Pass:

"His warriors covered the desert with their numbers, and he had five thousand Stygian troops in war chariots under the rebel prince Kutamun."

"First was a long line of chariots, drawn by the great fierce horses of Stygia, with plumes on their heads - snorting and rearing as each naked driver leaned back, bracing his powerful legs, his dusky arms knotted with muscles. The fighting-men in the chariots were tall figures, their hawk-like faces set off by bronze helmets crested with a crescent supporting a golden ball. Heavy bows were in their hands. No common archers these, but nobles of the South, bred to war and the hunt, who were accustomed to bringing down lions with their arrows."

Pretty substantial troops there for a rebel army. Although I too doubt Stygia had a feudal government and had a more centralized military, the fact remains that somehow Kutamun had control of 5,000 formidable noble warriors, with horses, chariots and drivers (assuming the drivers were not counted among the warriors). Perhaps the Stygian government didn't have as much control over the outer reaches of Eastern Stygia, which would allow Kutamun to gather discontented or restless nobles for Natohk's war.

Rebel doesn't need to mean poor armed forces, right? The South States were the "Rebels" in the America Civil War, In the Roman Empire generals rebeled against their emperors and brought to the battle field huge legions full of professional warriors. If a prince, nobleman, general, whatever, refuses to accept King's Authority it can be very dengerous as his men can take his side and fight for him, as legions did for their generals many times in the Roman Empire.
It is possible Kutamun brought with him the "legion" he was comanding before his rebelion. Like many other rebels, Kutamun was fallowed by his men, all professional soldiers. I still think there was a religious reason in that rebelion and the real rebel is Kutamun not his men, they just took the side of their master. They don't need to by rebels or fugitives, just good soldiers following his general, embracing Kutamun's rebelion.

[Taranaich]

I think Stygia survived quite well to the cathaclism. They just got up one day and VOI LA! there was land in the west. Ok, some earthquakes maybe. But I don't see much destruction in the end, just that Vanir invasion that originated the first line of Pharaohs in the Hybornian Age essay, if I remember well. I have to read it again soon. But look to what happned next to the historical Egypt. They were the same! It looks like they never abandoned the Stygian civilization. Thats why I say Stygia was the ONLY survivor civilization of that age and never lost their ways even when invaded.

I don't know, the entire African continent was broken away and a huge landmass rise up in the west. Khemi was on the mouth of the Styx, so it would likely have been destroyed by earthquakes, and since most Egyptian cities were on the banks of the Nile I would presume it would be the same for Stygia, so a lot of them would have been rocked by earthquakes or deluges from the newly formed Mediterranean. Stygia could have survived though, in the far south-east at the Styx's origin - coincidentally where the first Pharaohs came from:

Can anyone tell me where Howard took the idea of "Viking"/nordic Pharaohs? It seams weird as the first Pharaohs came from southern Egypt, a more African blood line and influence than the Northern Egypt. I think this was already known in the 30's.

I think it's due to the surprising number of Pharaohs having red hair. The Vanir are famously red-headed, so I guess Howard wanted to explain that little anomaly according to the Hyborian Age.

Rebel doesn't need to mean poor armed forces, right? The South States were the "Rebels" in the America Civil War, In the Roman Empire generals rebeled against their emperors and brought to the battle field huge legions full of professional warriors. If a prince, nobleman, general, whatever, refuses to accept King's Authority it can be very dengerous as his men can take his side and fight for him, as legions did for their generals many times in the Roman Empire.
It is possible Kutamun brought with him the "legion" he was comanding before his rebelion. Like many other rebels, Kutamun was fallowed by his men, all professional soldiers. I still think there was a religious reason in that rebelion and the real rebel is Kutamun not his men, they just took the side of their master. They don't need to by rebels or fugitives, just good soldiers following his general, embracing Kutamun's rebelion.

That's very true. Perhaps Kutamun was sent by the King specifically to combat Natohk only to jump ship when promised power and riches. He wouldn't be the first or the last to pull that.

[Kortoso]

In common with any cavalry, chariots would have been vulnerable nearly to the point of uselessnes without infantry to support them.

Could the original description have meant "thousands of soldiers including noble charioteers (which generally involved a driver and a warrior anyway)"?