62 replies to this topic

[Kortoso]

Well, I've said before that it appears that REH went with a "para-monotheistic" paradigm in the Hyborian Age. Each "pantheon" seems to have more than one deity, BUT there is always ONE deity (Ishtar, Mitra etc...) who seems to absolutely overshadow the others.

AFAIK, it wasn't that uncommon in polytheistic societies for the cult of one deity to have dominance over others, usually temporarily. Here I am thinking of cults in Hellenic Greece, but also Hindu India.

[deuce]

Well, I've said before that it appears that REH went with a "para-monotheistic" paradigm in the Hyborian Age. Each "pantheon" seems to have more than one deity, BUT there is always ONE deity (Ishtar, Mitra etc...) who seems to absolutely overshadow the others.

AFAIK, it wasn't that uncommon in polytheistic societies for the cult of one deity to have dominance over others, usually temporarily. Here I am thinking of cults in Hellenic Greece, but also Hindu India.

Absolutely right, Kortoso. The thing is, in both instances you cite, AFAIK, such "dominance" tended to be fairly localized, either spatially or temporally. You don't see that with Set or Crom. Other deities from each "Top God's" pantheon may be known of somehow, but very little is known about them and they're rarely mentioned/sworn by.

[deuce]

Following on the heels of Acheron, here's the Stygian thread.

Mr. Harron! I know you're working on the Encyclopaedia Hyboriana. So, what've you got in regards to Stygian cavalry? They don't get the press that the chariot-jockeys do, but you n' I both know that they're a force to be reckoned with.

Edited by deuce, 15 May 2011 - 10:27 AM.

[Taranaich]

No trouble at all, good sir:

For days they had fled into the desert, pursued so far by Stygian horsemen that when they shook off the pursuit, they dared not turn back.
- "Xuthal of the Dusk" The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p210

(I'm positive there's more, but I can't find anything else atm)

[deuce]

*Check out Al Harron's post above.

Over on the "Hyborian Age Technology" thread, there's been a controversy regarding (quite specifically) Stygian metallurgy, chariotry and chivalry/cavalry (the two terms were once one and the same). Despite blatant hints, it's still over there. I'm tired of nudging and have brought my comments over here.

The "Technology" thread is for general technological questions. "What is the state of technology in the Hyborian kingdoms? In the Black/Kushite kingdoms? In the Blue East?" As soon as it all fixates on ONE kingdom, it's more appropriate for a thread dedicated TO THAT ONE KINGDOM. In this case, Stygia. Al Harron has done a great job with this thread. No need for it to languish.

The whole discussion started from a forum member trying to assert a "Bronze Age" level of tech for Stygia during Conan's era (and, perhaps, beyond that). From "Bronze Age Stygians", it progressed to the near-impossiblity of chariots standing up to heavy cavalry and then to the assertion that the Stygians had no cavalry of their own.

There are three things that any Conan fan/pasticheur/game designer should keep in mind:

The Stygians had steel.
The Stygian elite chariotry (obviously) were competitive with heavy cavalry.
The Stygians possessed their own (at the least) light cavalry.

Let's look at Black Colossus:

"At first glance the amazed watchers seemed to be looking down upon a glittering sparkling sea of bronze and gold, where steel points twinkled like a myriad stars. With the lifting of the fog the invaders had halted as if frozen, in long serried lines, flaming in the sun.
First was a long line of chariots, drawn by the great fierce horses of Stygia, with plumes on their heads--snorting and rearing as each naked driver leaned back, bracing his powerful legs, his dusky arms knotted with muscles. The fighting-men in the chariots were tall figures, their hawk-like faces set off by bronze helmets crested with a crescent supporting a golden ball. Heavy bows were in their hands. No common archers these, but nobles of the South, bred to war and the hunt, who were accustomed to bringing down lions with their arrows."

This excerpt points up several facts about Stygia.

STEEL was being wielded by members of Thugra Khotan's host. To think that the Stygians (the obvious dominant group) showed up with bronze while the asshuri and Zuagir (and Kushites!) brandished steel or iron is just ludicrous. It's quite possible (I'd say likely) that Stygia was the vector for iron metallurgy into Shem and the elder Hyborian kingdoms 4000+yrs before Conan.

The Stygian chariots were drawn by GREAT horses. This, in every instance I'm aware of in English language sources, denotes size. We ain't talkin' old-school Egyptian horses/ponies. Instead, it looks like BIG hosses, probably harnessed with horse-collars, were the engines for the Stygian war-machines. The Stygians had thousands of years to perfect their breed of chariot horse (and, for that matter, cavalry horse).

Coupled with spring steel, ball-bearings and "composites" produced by Stygian specialist-mages, it's possible that the Stygian chariots matched or exceeded anything comparable in the 20th century.

The Stygian nobles were "bred to war". I'm not sure this was a throw-away phrase. At all. Kutamun was nearly a match for Conan. Stygian society was based on CASTE and RACE. The proto-Stygians/"Khari" had been overthrown and driven out by rebellious slaves. Their Stygian descendants would seem to have learned that hard lesson and taken appropriate counter-measures (considering they maintained their rule for 5000+yrs afterward). An analogous example might be Stirling's "Domination of the Draka":

http://smstirling.wi...nation_of_Draka


Stygian cavalry:

For days they had fled into the desert, pursued so far by Stygian horsemen that when they shook off the pursuit, they dared not turn back.
- "Xuthal of the Dusk" The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian, p210

Stygian cavalry. Pursuing enemies into the deep desert. Analogous to the use of jeeps in numerous desert wars.

The Stygians knew how to ride horses. Cavalry and chariotry served two different purposes.

[Taranaich]

Great post, Deuce. I think one issue regarding Stygian "bronze-age" tech is that the Stygians utilized bronze in many respects, and some with very high levels of technology. Witness this 3,000-year-old door in Kuthchemes:

Broad steps led up to a great bronze door in the dome, which rested on its base like the half of some titanic egg... But he put aside his fears and mounted to the bronze door, whose smooth surface offered no bolt or catch... Kneeling before the portal, he searched the sill with nimble fingers; their sensitive tips found
projections too small for the eye to detect, or for less-skilled fingers to discover. These he pressed carefully and according to a peculiar system, muttering a long-forgotten incantation as he did so. As he pressed the last projection, he sprang up with frantic haste and struck the exact center of the door a quick sharp blow with his open hand.
There was no rasp of spring or hinge, but the door retreated inward, and the breath hissed explosively from Shevatas’ clenched teeth
- "Black Colossus"

Stygians used steel weapons, but their helms at least were bronze:

At first glance the amazed watchers seemed to be looking down upon a glittering sparkling sea of bronze and gold, where steel points twinkled like a myriad stars.
- "Black Colossus" (Note: this might also be in reference to the Asshuri rather than the Stygians since their hosts vastly outnumbered that of Kutamun's forces, but for the sake of completion I include it.)

The fighting-men in the chariots were tall figures, their hawk-like faces set off by bronze helmets crested with a crescent supporting a golden ball.
- "Black Colossus" (the "glittering sparkling sea of bronze and gold" is carried over to the "bronze helmets" supporting a "golden ball" - it doesn't take a genius to figure out what the twinkling "steel points" might be)

While the presence of bronze helmets for the Stygians might imply bronze-age level of technology if you forget about the references to steel, it's important to remember that the palace guard of Belverus had "crested helmets of polished bronze" ("The Hour of the Dragon," BCoC, p121). That's the guardsmen of the royal palace in the capital city of the second strongest of all the Hyborian kingdoms. So we have another Hyborian example of bronze armour employed by a culture well past the bronze age in other respects, especially militarily.


While the Stygians used bronze chariots (HotD, TBCoC, p198), so did the Kothians ("Instead he entered in chains, stripped of his armor, and thrown like a captive slave on the bronze floor of his conqueror’s chariot" - TSC, CoC, p92). All throughout the stories are references to bronze gates, doors, lamps and statues, all throughout the kingdoms. Just like in real history, bronze continued to be used in Hyborian Age cultures long after their bronze age.

[deuce]

People have been known to hang onto antiquated traditions, especially when reinforced by magic.

That's my point. Advanced "tech" or thaumaturgy allowed the Stygians to take chariotry to the next level.

The fact that the Stygians also employed cavalry where advantageous says to me that they were NOT hide-bound by tradition. They kept what worked for them and that worked for 5000+yrs.

[deuce]

The big question is how the Stygians managed to keep an "antiquated" weapons platform like the chariot viable against heavily-armored "high medieval" cavalry. Quite obviously, REH thought it was a fairly even match. T

My answer would be that the two are equivalent except for costs. A chariot is a more stable platform than a pony or horse, and if the Stygians could make a chariot affordable comparable to Hyrkanian pony-archers it would be a useful platfrom, so long as one were on fairly-flat plains.

Firepower might be the key. A "super-chariot" pulled by four properly-collared thoroughbred horses could haul a charioteer and an armored "bred for war" noble AND a whole truck-load of arrows/other weapons.

ONE horse with a horse-collar can pull over a ton. FOUR can pull (say) five hundred pounds of men and armament really fast.

[Ironhand]

I'd like to bring up a totally different issue, inspired by the discussion of Aquilonian imperialism, but still appropriate to this thread: Stygian imperialism.

There is evidence in several stories that Stygian dominance once extended further than it did in Conan's time. The sub-Hyborian area seems to be littered with former Stygian colonies. But they all rebelled and fell away, or were assimilated by their native populations. Evidently Stygain rule is so odious that their foreign possessions always rebel. Despite its power, it seems that Stygia can only successfully rule Stygians. And even Stygian princes rebel.

[deuce]

People have been known to hang onto antiquated traditions, especially when reinforced by magic.

One of the many reasons that barbarian despot Alekanther Magnus was able to defeat Darius III was that the latter continued to use chariots, which were plenty good against satraps and peasants but not so much against other modern (for the time) armies.

Is someone stating that, historically, chariots DID remain viable against cavalry? I don't think that anyone is arguing the point.

The point, unless I'm mistaken, is that Stygian chariotry was viable against "High Medieval"-style Hyborian cavalry (and "Medieval Islam"-style Zuagir cavalry). That's obvious from Robert E. Howard's Conan yarns. In neither BC nor XotD is it thought/said/implied by REH/Conan/whoever that Stygian chariotry couldn't stand up to cavalry under battlefield conditions.

So, since that is a Hyborian Age "fact", all that remains to those of us who are interested in such things is to figure out the "HOW". Robert E. Howard said it, now we figure out the details.

[deuce]

I'd like to bring up a totally different issue, inspired by the discussion of Aquilonian imperialism, but still appropriate to this thread: Stygian imperialism.

There is evidence in several stories that Stygian dominance once extended further than it did in Conan's time. The sub-Hyborian area seems to be littered with former Stygian colonies. But they all rebelled and fell away, or were assimilated by their native populations. Evidently Stygain rule is so odious that their foreign possessions always rebel. Despite its power, it seems that Stygia can only successfully rule Stygians. And even Stygian princes rebel.

Good point, IH.

For one thing, ALL colonized/subjugated peoples (that I know of from history) eventually rebel unless they're voluntarily given political autonomy OR they're thoroughly assimilated.

Without THA available to me, I can't be positive, but I believe that the Shemites only threw off the Stygian yoke AFTER the Hyborians cast down the Northern Stygian Dominion. So, the northern Stygians were still holding on at that point. Other evidence would point to the Stygians ruling Shem BEFORE that for at least a thousand years and probably far longer.

It's hard to say when the Stygians conquered the lands south of Lake Zuad. Personally (because of QotBC), I'd say very soon after they conquered Stygia proper.

They lost their possessions east of the Styx within Conan's lifetime. It's likely (since the Black Hand existed in Sabatea), that their rule there lasted for centuries if not millenia.

All in all, I'd say that the Stygians come off fairly well in the "ability to maintain imperial domination" category.

[deuce]

Courtesy of Al Harron/Taranaich:


"The Stygians of Conan's time did use iron and steel:

There he made his boat fast to an iron ring set in the stone, as numerous similar craft were tied.
- "The Hour of the Dragon, The Bloody Crown of Conan, p197

... the Stygian?s right hand came from under his cloak with a gleam of steel and his murderous stab would have pierced the heart of an ordinary man.
- "The Hour of the Dragon, The Bloody Crown of Conan, p203

A fierce cry rang out as a priest leaped with a flicker of steel... He caught only glimpses of that brief, fiendish fight ? saw men swaying, locked in battle and streaming blood; saw one Khitan, fairly hacked to pieces, yet still on his feet and dealing death, when Thutothmes smote him on the breast with his open empty hand, and he dropped dead, though naked steel had not been enough to destroy his uncanny vitality.
- "The Hour of the Dragon, The Bloody Crown of Conan, p211"

I'd hope that would be proof enough for anybody.

[Pictish Scout]

I'd like to bring up a totally different issue, inspired by the discussion of Aquilonian imperialism, but still appropriate to this thread: Stygian imperialism.

There is evidence in several stories that Stygian dominance once extended further than it did in Conan's time. The sub-Hyborian area seems to be littered with former Stygian colonies. But they all rebelled and fell away, or were assimilated by their native populations. Evidently Stygain rule is so odious that their foreign possessions always rebel. Despite its power, it seems that Stygia can only successfully rule Stygians. And even Stygian princes rebel.

I think the “Stygian Empire” is more on the defensive during Conan’s life. This defensiveness seems to be military, cultural and economic.


Stygia has a tough immigration policy. It reminds me of China and Japan in later ages. Some merchants are allowed and once inside they cannot wander at will, etc.

Strangers were not welcome in the cities of Stygia; tolerated only when they came as ambassadors or licensed traders. But even then the latter were not allowed ashore after dark.”

Despite the strict “immigration policy”, Stygia contracts foreign mercenaries at least in its southern borders where Darfari war bands’ incursions seem to be endemic. Conan and Valeria were there.

Sukhmet amidst the level grasslands, where desperate adventurers of many races guarded the Stygian frontier against the raids that come up like a red wave from Darfar

Stygia’s enemies invade (I’m not sure the Styx is a decent natural barrier) but once inside they are crashed by the Stygian army with some help from the desert…I think.

There were at least 2 foreign invasions in Stygian soil during Conan’s lifetime: Almuric’s mercenary band, and at least one combined expedition by Koth and Argos. All of those menaces were crushed by diplomacy and a defense in depth strategy and/or persecution. I’m not counting the raids in the southern border.

”…following the defeated rebel prince of Koth, swept through the Lands of Shem like a devastating sandstorm and drenched in the outlands of Stygia with blood. With a Stygian host on its heels, it had cut its way through the black kingdom of Kush, only to be annihilated on the edge of the southern desert.”
The Slithering Shadow

“Prince Zapayo, in desperation, conceived the mad idea of marching eastward, hoping to skirt the Stygian border and eventually reach the eastern lands of Shem. But the (Stygian) army from the north overtook us. We turned and fought. All day we fought, and finally they gave before us, their retreat turning into a rout. But the next day the pursuing army came up from the west, and curshed between the hosts, our army ceased to be.”
Drums of Tombalku

Its interest in the maritime expansion seems to be minimal.


In the present it seems Stygia is more interested in creating and maintaining buffer zones around the Styx than a full scale invasion of the Black Kingdoms and Shem. These regions seem to be zones of Stygian influence with some effective control, raiding, trade, miscegenation, etc. No wander the main population of slaves in Stygia are Shemites and Blacks. Also Stygian blood runs in the veins of the ruling castes just the other side of the Stygian border.



The stygian age of great expansion ended maybe 3000 years before Conan. The 3^rd millennium before Conan was an era remembered more than once in the yarns:
The fall of Acheron
The fall of the Stygia-Kuthchemes
The founding of Khorshemish by Khossus V of Koth.

The Hyborians (Kothians?) in wolf skins and horn helmets did strike a severe blow to Stygian’s imperial dreams in the north. Turan seem to have done the same more recently in the east.


I’m not sure if the earlier Stygian expansion was a state project. It looks like colonization, conquest and settling was conducted independently (feudal lords?)giving birth to Stygian-Kuthchemes which seem to have been independent from Stygia-Luxur.


I am reading for the first time Sword Woman and other historical adventures and I wonder how much of Stygia is in Egypt (of Hawks over Egypt) and vice versa…


I hope I am not missing the mark by far

[deuce]

I think the “Stygian Empire” is more on the defensive during Conan’s life. This defensiveness seems to be military, cultural and economic.


Stygia has a tough immigration policy. It reminds me of China and Japan in later ages. Some merchants are allowed and once inside they cannot wander at will, etc.

Scout! I would add India AND Pharaonic Egypt to that list as well. Edgar Rice Burroughs seems to have used all three as model for Barsoom and I don't think that's an accident.

Once again, we come back to Stirling's "Draka" as an example. Imperialistic societies based on class/caste/race almost invariably restrict the access that "outside influences" have to the "underclass". No need to get the "masses" stirred up.

Stygia’s enemies invade (I’m not sure the Styx is a decent natural barrier) but once inside they are crashed by the Stygian army with some help from the desert…I think.

There were at least 2 foreign invasions in Stygian soil during Conan’s lifetime: Almuric’s mercenary band, and at least one combined expedition by Koth and Argos. All of those menaces were crushed by diplomacy and a defense in depth strategy and/or persecution. I’m not counting the raids in the southern border.

Its interest in the maritime expansion seems to be minimal.

I'm not sure the Styx can be ruled out as a "decent barrier".

Stygia's defensive strategy seems to have been "in depth" or "Fabian". That worked for the Roman Republic and the Byzantine Empire.

In the present it seems Stygia is more interested in creating and maintaining buffer zones around the Styx than a full scale invasion of the Black Kingdoms and Shem. These regions seem to be zones of Stygian influence with some effective control, raiding, trade, miscegenation, etc. No wonder the main population of slaves in Stygia are Shemites and Blacks. Also Stygian blood runs in the veins of the ruling castes just the other side of the Stygian border.



The stygian age of great expansion ended maybe 3000 years before Conan. The 3^rd millennium before Conan was an era remembered more than once in the yarns:
The fall of Acheron
The fall of the Stygia-Kuthchemes
The founding of Khorshemish by Khossus V of Koth.

The Hyborians (Kothians?) in wolf skins and horn helmets did strike a severe blow to Stygian’s imperial dreams in the north. Turan seem to have done the same more recently in the east.


I’m not sure if the earlier Stygian expansion was a state project. It looks like colonization, conquest and settling was conducted independently (feudal lords?)giving birth to Stygian-Kuthchemes which seem to have been independent from Stygia-Luxur.


I am reading for the first time Sword Woman and other historical adventures and I wonder how much of Stygia is in Egypt (of Hawks over Egypt) and vice versa…


I hope I am not missing the mark by far

Once again, a Byzantine model for Stygia seems approximately right (one could throw medieval China in there as well).

"Type A/ Alphas" seem to predominate in the Stygian upper-caste (not surprisingly). The continual unrest we see in Stygia is a symptom, as is the "wildcat" empire-building we see in the earlier epoch.

Yeah, by Conan's era, the almost superhuman vigor/vitality of the Khemite/Stygian ethnos seems on the wane. Still, it would take 500+yrs to finally bring down the Stygian Dominion. They sowed and then they reaped, when all was said and done. I'm reminded of "Ozymandius".

As for "Hawks", Egypt (far more than Rome) is eternal.

[LordYam]

Two things stood out for me, that seemed to fly in the face of "stygia is very xenophobic". In REH vale of lost women Livia's brother Theletes (vale of lost women) was given special permission by Stygia's king to study at Kheshatta. they were actually on route to take the boy there when they got massacred and livia sold into slavery.

The next is admittedly a pastiche work, so feel free to pillior me if it sounds silly, but Conan's friend Zula, upon killing his master Shu Onoru, is awarded his master's seat in the Black Ring (he also summons a powerful and difficult to summon demon named Helgor). Hell it also had a female member of the ring, Akadi (though she was the lover of one of the leaders).

Those imply that in extremely rare cases they may allow outsiders into their ranks, and maybe women into their ranks.

[Taranaich]

Two things stood out for me, that seemed to fly in the face of "stygia is very xenophobic". In REH vale of lost women Livia's brother Theletes (vale of lost women) was given special permission by Stygia's king to study at Kheshatta. they were actually on route to take the boy there when they got massacred and livia sold into slavery.

The fact that Theteles had to obtain special permission from no less than the king to study at Keshatta shows how unusual the situation is.

[LordYam]

what about the other situation i mentioned, where a black ring members slave gets the job after killing his former master and demonstrating his prowess at black magic

[wulfhere]

what about the other situation i mentioned, where a black ring members slave gets the job after killing his former master and demonstrating his prowess at black magic

Just some pastiche from the comic books. It doesn't mean anything. There's loads of implausible crap from the comics.

[constantine]

The fact that Stygia's main port has very strict and limiting regulations concerning the presence of foreigners there speaks volumes about the the country's regime and culture.

[LordYam]

I know, I was just saying that there are obscenely rare cases when they might be willing to let outsiders into their ranks. Set did once rule the whole world if Epimitreus is to be believed, so I doubt he'd just be content to stay in Stygia. Maybe having outsiders would help spread it to other countries (for instance, if you wanted to increase a foothold in Koth you'd use native Kothians to speed up the transition.