[deuce]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SPOILERS WILL FOLLOW<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Well, it's time for our January Howard yarn-of-the-month, sword-brothers (and sisters). We're pulling this one from The Best of Robert E. Howard, Volume 1: Crimson Shadows (Del Rey). As one would expect, most REH fans consider this tale a true classic. The Valley of the Worm was published in Weird Tales magazine in 1934 and was well-received by the readership. It's been reprinted just about every decade since.

This yarn forms part of the "James Allison cycle" of reincarnation tales. The two other stories REH completed were Marchers of Valhalla and The Garden of Fear. Allison was a crippled Texan from the same region as REH who gained the ability to remember past (and future) lives in the story Marchers of Valhalla (which I actually love slightly better than "TVotW"). There is very little doubt that REH got the basic idea for this "cycle" from Jack London's epic novel, The Star-Rover. Barbaric Aesir and Vanir, heart-eating Nordics, Mitra and Il-Marinen: they're all in there. The text is online. Check out Chapter 23, especially.

Howard began writing the "Allison" series at about the same time as his Conan saga was just getting rolling. These stories are set in the (post-)Hyborian Age, make no mistake. In a 1933 letter to CAS, Howard wrote that The Garden of Fear (a tale definitely part of the "Allison" cycle) deals with his "conceptions of the Hyborian and post-Hyborian world". "TGoF" would actually be the hardest one to peg as "(post-)Hyborian". The Aesir, Vanir, Picts and "Khitai" are all mentioned in "Marchers" (Thoth-Amon, too, in an early draft). Aesir, Nordheim, Picts and Stygia are name-checked in "TVotW".

Howard introduces this yarn as being the Grandaddy of All Dragon/Monster-Slaying tales, literally. I think REH would've loved reading Calvert Watkins' How to Kill a Dragon: Aspects of Indo-European Poetics. Watkins reviews poetry from the Hittites to Vedic India to medieval Ireland, exploring the centrality of dragon-slaying to a tradition that possibly extends back 5000yrs or more. His conclusion: I-E poets from the Indus valley to Connacht provided an invaluable service to their cultures. That "service" was "imperishable fame". Niord's last words to Grom were, "Let my tribe remember..."

Robert E. Howard was one of the last(?), and definitely one of the best, of a very long line.

[Darkstorm Dale]

I don't have a lot of time tonight, so I'm only going to say what my favorite piece of the story is.

There is a scene where Niord relates the last battle of of Nordheim; the fields of Jotunheim, where the Armageddon of the Aesir/Vanir races occurred. This battle was the Ragnarok and Goetterdaemmerung of legends. It occurs to me that Jotunheim is the homeland of the Frost-Giants.

Now the story doesn't say exactly who the Nordheimers are fighting, but I believe that its the Frost-Giants of Ymir. Jotunheim isn't just a field, it is a land that includes Ymir's mountains from The Frost-Giant's Daughter. The fields would almost certainly lay before the mountains, so the Nordheimers battled the Giants as they came down off the mountain and were forced from the field and their country.

This battle is the literal start of the Ice Age at the close of the Hyborian Age. The Frost-Giants literally came down off their mountains and turned the southlands to ice. And everyone southward probably think that the Nordheimers are really prone to having their imaginations run away with them, so don't believe them.

Apparently the barbarians don't have it too easy after all...

[deuce]

Darkstorm Dale, on Jan 13 2008, 05:30 AM, said:

I don't have a lot of time tonight, so I'm only going to say what my favorite piece of the story is.

There is a scene where Niord relates the last battle of of Nordheim; the fields of Jotunheim, where the Armageddon of the Aesir/Vanir races occurred. This battle was the Ragnarok and Goetterdaemmerung of legends. It occurs to me that Jotunheim is the homeland of the Frost-Giants.

Now the story doesn't say exactly who the Nordheimers are fighting, but I believe that its the Frost-Giants of Ymir. Jotunheim isn't just a field, it is a land that includes Ymir's mountains from The Frost-Giant's Daughter. The fields would almost certainly lay before the mountains, so the Nordheimers battled the Giants as they came down off the mountain and were forced from the field and their country.

This battle is the literal start of the Ice Age at the close of the Hyborian Age. The Frost-Giants literally came down off their mountains and turned the southlands to ice. And everyone southward probably think that the Nordheimers are really prone to having their imaginations run away with them, so don't believe them.

Apparently the barbarians don't have it too easy after all...

Thanks for the timely post, Dale! I also found that passage (p.261) fascinating. However, I'm not sure we can get everything you state out of it. Niord remembers "the field of Jotunheim" as a very small child, but he does state that his memory of it "stands out clearer" than any others from that period. Also, he seems to have his recollections corroborated by his elders. One might think Niord would recall the "monstrous forms" of the Frost-Giants, yet he only mentions "still dark forms". Also, the "mountains of Ymir" seem to lie on the Vanaheim/Asgard border. When Niord speaks of the setting sun (ie, to the westward) there is no mention of mountains: "a sun setting in a lurid wallow of crimson clouds". The "field" appears to be on a great plain with a non-mountainous horizon to the westward. Isn't it just as possible that the "Aesir Armageddon" on the field of Jotunheim was between Aesir-tribes fighting over dwindling resources? Or perhaps against the Vanir?

About Ymir... none of Conan's Aesir buddies seem to know about any "Frost-Giants" other than Ymir. Also, wasn't there a reference in one yarn to the Aesir only worshipping "Ymir and his daughters"? All of the Nordheimers in the "JA" yarns seem to worship Ymir. Would they still do so after a "Gotterdammerung-style" showdown with his "sons"?
Just wondering aloud...
The way REH presents it, it does tie in with the interpretation of the Ragnarok "prophecy" as actually being a dim memory of the cataclysmic events of the last Ice Age. Wasn't Ignatius Donnelly the first to propose it?

Anyway, the rest of y'all out there... don't let me n' Dale hog this thread. Feel free to post any thoughts/reactions you've got about The Valley of the Worm.

[Darkstorm Dale]

deuce, on Jan 12 2008, 11:33 PM, said:

Thanks for the timely post, Dale! I also found that passage (p.261) fascinating. However, I'm not sure we can get everything you state out of it. Niord remembers "the field of Jotunheim" as a very small child, but he does state that his memory of it "stands out clearer" than any others from that period. Also, he seems to have his recollections corroborated by his elders. One might think Niord would recall the "monstrous forms" of the Frost-Giants, yet he only mentions "still dark forms". Also, the "mountains of Ymir" seem to lie on the Vanaheim/Asgard border. When Niord speaks of the setting sun (ie, to the westward) there is no mention of mountains: "a sun setting in a lurid wallow of crimson clouds". The "field" appears to be on a great plain with a non-mountainous horizon to the westward. Isn't it just as possible that the "Aesir Armageddon" on the field of Jotunheim was between Aesir-tribes fighting over dwindling resources? Or perhaps against the Vanir?

About Ymir... none of Conan's Aesir buddies seem to know about any "Frost-Giants" other than Ymir. Also, wasn't there a reference in one yarn to the Aesir only worshipping "Ymir and his daughters"? All of the Nordheimers in the "JA" yarns seem to worship Ymir. Would they still do so after a "Gotterdammerung-style" showdown with his "sons"?
Just wondering aloud...
The way REH presents it, it does tie in with the interpretation of the Ragnarok "prophecy" as actually being a dim memory of the cataclysmic events of the last Ice Age. Wasn't Ignatius Donnelly the first to propose it?

From the context, I think that this is exactly what Howard is implying; that the Ragnarok of the Norse was actually a memory of the end of the Hyborian Age in Nordheim. That the Vanir and Aesir of the Hyborian Age were the Norse gods, in much the same way that Bori was an actual man of renown worshiped as a god by later-age Hyborians. By telling us that the "Aesir Armageddon" was on the field of Jotunheim (Giant's Home) Howard is giving a tacit nod toward the legend of Ragnorok. You see, the Norse legend doesn't have Ragnorok being fought between the Aesir and Vanir, but instead is the final battle between the Aesir and the Frost-Giants. The battle is followed by the destruction of the world. Howard's story only tells us about the fighting Aesir, that the battle takes place on the field of the "Giant's Home", and doesn't mention the Vanir at all. Howard's version aligns itself perfectly with the Norse version.
The giants in Norse mythology represent the untamed, destructive forces of Chaos, and much of it is shown in the light of a endless fight between the civilizing influences (the Aesir) and the chaos of nature (the Giants). By setting the final battle of the Aesir on the field of Jotunheim followed by their subsequent abandonment of Nordheim, Howard is telling us that the Nordheimers lost to the forces of nature in the end; the Ice Age that ended the Hyborian Age. I think it's amazingly cool that Ragnorok ended the Hyborian Age...

Howard describes Niord's memory of the final battle on the field of Jotunheim as: "a sun setting in a lurid wallow of crimson clouds, blazing on trampled snow where still dark forms lay in pools that were redder than the sunset". I understand that it would have helped in Howard described the bodies in gigantic terms, but it's really vague as to who the bodies belonged to; the Aesir or the giants. Of course, in The Frost-Giant's Daughter, the bodies of the slain giants vanished shortly after Conan killed them, so who's to say whether there would even be giant bodies for Niord to remember. At any rate, the passage is so vague that the "still, dark forms" could be both Aesir and giant bodies.

Your sunset/no mountains speculation is intriguing, but it's tied to the idea that Ymir's mountains lay athwart the Vanaheim/Asgard border, which is flat out wrong. The Frost-Giants Daughter describes the battle field as being in Asgard and Ymir's mountains as lying to the north of said battlefield. Conan chases after Atali: "Further and further into the wastes she led him. The land changed; the wide plains gave way to low hills, marching upward in broken ranges. Far to the north he caught a glimpse of towering mountains, blue with the distance, or white with the eternal snows. Above these mountains shone the flaring rays of the borealis." The next paragraph states that the aurora is shining above Conan, which means that Conan is pursuing Atali northward toward Ymir's mountains. Ymir rescues Atali in the "snow-clad hills", so Conan only got as far as the foothills between Ymirs mountains and the plains that lie to the south where he came from. Niord, leader of the Aesir group that tracked Conan, confirms Conan's direction when he asks why the Cimmerian wandered off into "the wastes of the north". Another Aesir confirms that the mountains Conan headed toward where reputed to be the land the god Ymir resides in. If the land surrounding Ymir's mountains is Jotunheim, then the field of Jotunheim is almost certainly the flat plain where Conan fought Wulfhere's band.

I don't remember any passages referring to Ymir and his daughters, but I do know that Atali refers to the two frost-giants that attack Conan as her brothers. And the two giants were definitely frost-giants from their descriptions of frost encrusted armor and icicle spikes for beards. As for the Aesir not knowing about any other frost-giants but Ymir, The Frost-Giant's Daughter pretty much establishes how rare human/giant interaction really is. The average Nordheimer would probably never encounter one in his lifetime, so would be skeptical of Conan's claim. The fact that Jotunheim exists and Ymir's land is known to the Aesir implies that there is something tangible about them, though.

The reason that the Aesir worship Ymir after their expulsion from Nordheim could be as simple as the knowledge that their god was real and that striving against his will made them into the indomitable warriors they were.

Actually, if I recall correctly, Donnelly didn't believe in Ice Ages and thought that Ragnorok was caused by a comet or asteroid strike near the north Atlantic followed by a drastic cool-down from all the crap in the air.

This post has been edited by Darkstorm Dale: 13 January 2008 - 07:02 PM

[Sermon Bath]

this is the most famous story by howard that I never got around to reading for whatever reason......I loved Niord's other adventure Marchers of Valhalla........thats absolutely one of Howard's very finest

[Fernando]

Darkstorm Dale, on Jan 13 2008, 06:56 PM, said:

I don't remember any passages referring to Ymir and his daughters

This passage is shown in The Garden of the Fear.

[Fernando]

Wow! Wonderful thread! I didn't translate/read yet this tale into Portuguese (I'll only do it in the late 2009), but I've readed a Spanish version, and it seems to be one of the bests REH's yarns! I saw in it a reference about black people who would later came from the south for mixed themselves with the Picts. Could them be the descendants of Amazon's people who was settled in Shem by the Hyrkanians - and became later the Canaanite's co-ancestors?

This post has been edited by Fernando: 14 January 2008 - 05:02 PM

[godzilladude]

Your little bit of weirdness for the day:

In this story is the great scene where the hero sings his death song before heading down into the Valley to kill the Worm and die. Powerful scene. I always thought it was interesting that REH never recycled the concept of the warrior singing his "death song".

After years, I finally DID see REH use it again. It was in "While Smoke Rolled", one of the humorous westerns. In it, there is an old Indian chief who's a good thief and diplomat, and is caught in the middle of a situation between Breck's relative, a British leader trying to stir up the Indians to go on the warpath, and three Indian tribes in his village. The chief has got to keep everyone calm, nothing bad happen, and Breck's relative is going to make it all go BOOM, naturally. At one point, just before the climatic pow-wow, the chief is seen singing his death song, and Breck's relative knows what he's doing, but can't imagine why.

Strange.

[Kortoso]

I have questions regarding this story's validity as a Hyborian tale.

One example (just one!): The Aesir contact the Picts. Where are the Vanir? Does not Vanaheim lie between Asgard and Pictland?

Did the Picts teach the Aesir "iron-workings"? Then how did they devolve to using copper weapons in Conan's time? Was this tale before Conan's era or before?

A great mist conceals that which must be known.

[Darkstorm Dale]

Kortoso, on Jan 15 2008, 11:19 AM, said:

I have questions regarding this story's validity as a Hyborian tale.

One example (just one!): The Aesir contact the Picts. Where are the Vanir? Does not Vanaheim lie between Asgard and Pictland?

Did the Picts teach the Aesir "iron-workings"? Then how did they devolve to using copper weapons in Conan's time? Was this tale before Conan's era or before?

A great mist conceals that which must be known.

I think it makes a very fine post-Hyborian Age tale. The Ice Age has driven the Aesir out of Nordheim and on a long migration (apparently the migration in this tale has been ongoing for at least twenty years or so). The Pictish tribe has migrated as well; this one has been living in the jungle for several generations, descending into savagery. The two tribes are inhabiting the jungles far to the south of their respective original homelands.

In The Hyborian Age, Arus taught Gorm and the Picts how to work with iron. This happened shortly after Conan was king. It's also believable that the Aesir are only using weapons made of bronze and copper, since the chaos of a migration could cause more advanced techs to fall by the wayside. So I don't see an intractable problem there.

[Mikey_C]

Hi folks. I've moved all the off-topic (but interesting) "While Smoke Rolls" / Boone Bearfield posts to their own thread.

[deuce]

godzilladude, on Jan 14 2008, 05:14 PM, said:

Your little bit of weirdness for the day:

In this story is the great scene where the hero sings his death song before heading down into the Valley to kill the Worm and die. Powerful scene. I always thought it was interesting that REH never recycled the concept of the warrior singing his "death song".

Strange.

Now that we're back on track...

Hey Paul! Red Knife the Comanche sings his death-song in The Thunder-Rider (the November "SotM", BTW). Ol' Asgrimm in "Marchers" goes out to meet the Vanir's horde singing the "slaying-song of Niord who ate the red smoking heart of Heimdul". Evidently, heart-eating in Nordheim wasn't restricted to Ymir (which can be traced back to London's The Star-Rover). Anyway Paul, you're right, it's too bad REH didn't give us more tales with death-songs.

[deuce]

Darkstorm Dale, on Jan 16 2008, 01:04 AM, said:

Kortoso, on Jan 15 2008, 11:19 AM, said:

I have questions regarding this story's validity as a Hyborian tale.

One example (just one!): The Aesir contact the Picts. Where are the Vanir? Does not Vanaheim lie between Asgard and Pictland?

Did the Picts teach the Aesir "iron-workings"? Then how did they devolve to using copper weapons in Conan's time? Was this tale before Conan's era or before?

A great mist conceals that which must be known.

I think it makes a very fine post-Hyborian Age tale. The Ice Age has driven the Aesir out of Nordheim and on a long migration (apparently the migration in this tale has been ongoing for at least twenty years or so). The Pictish tribe has migrated as well; this one has been living in the jungle for several generations, descending into savagery. The two tribes are inhabiting the jungles far to the south of their respective original homelands.

In The Hyborian Age, Arus taught Gorm and the Picts how to work with iron. This happened shortly after Conan was king. It's also believable that the Aesir are only using weapons made of bronze and copper, since the chaos of a migration could cause more advanced techs to fall by the wayside. So I don't see an intractable problem there.

I don't see an intractable problem either. Kortoso, basically all of the "JA" Nordheimer yarns (except, maybe, "Genseric"), IMO, should be viewed as "post-apocalyptic". REH gives us our only glimpse into the chaotic age following the collapse of the "Hyborian Age/World". The Picts have overthrown the Old World Order and have settled down into their new territories. The Nordheimers are (slowly) migrating out of their homeland.

It really looks like REH wrote the completed "JA" yarns in chronological order. The "paranoid", wander-lusting, kill-crazy Aesir of "Marchers" seem to have left before the general migration. "TVotW" seems to be set in the midst of the general Volkerwanderung of the Nordheimers. In The Garden of Fear, Hunwulf mentions the presence of Aesir STILL residing in Asgard. However, Hunwulf's tribe is now wielding flint weapons. The technological degeneration continues. Soon, the main concentration of Nordheimers will be on the Eurasian steppes (along with Cimmerians), giving rise to the "Aryans"/proto-Indo-Europeans. The "telescoping effect" seen in earlier parts of The Hyborian Age is also seen here. Hope that helps.

[Rusty Burke]

Not specifically identified as a "death song" but in "Men of the Shadows" our Norse narrator, last survivor of a 500-man troop sent north of Hadrian's Wall, chucks all his Roman accoutrements and tells us, "I scorned concealment. Nay, more, I chanted a fierce song as I strode, beating time with my sword. Let the Picts come when they would. I was ready to die like a warrior."

Rusty

[deuce]

Rusty Burke, on Jan 16 2008, 10:27 PM, said:

Not specifically identified as a "death song" but in "Men of the Shadows" our Norse narrator, last survivor of a 500-man troop sent north of Hadrian's Wall, chucks all his Roman accoutrements and tells us, "I scorned concealment. Nay, more, I chanted a fierce song as I strode, beating time with my sword. Let the Picts come when they would. I was ready to die like a warrior."

Rusty

Right on, Rusty! I knew there was at least one more example.

[deuce]

Fernando, on Jan 14 2008, 01:05 PM, said:

Darkstorm Dale, on Jan 13 2008, 06:56 PM, said:

I don't remember any passages referring to Ymir and his daughters

This passage is shown in The Garden of the Fear.

Quite right, Fernando! It's on page 48 of my Baen edition of Eons of the Night (RIP, Jim Baen).

[deuce]

Darkstorm Dale, on Jan 13 2008, 06:56 PM, said:

From the context, I think that this is exactly what Howard is implying; that the Ragnarok of the Norse was actually a memory of the end of the Hyborian Age in Nordheim. That the Vanir and Aesir of the Hyborian Age were the Norse gods, in much the same way that Bori was an actual man of renown worshiped as a god by later-age Hyborians. By telling us that the "Aesir Armageddon" was on the field of Jotunheim (Giant's Home) Howard is giving a tacit nod toward the legend of Ragnorok. You see, the Norse legend doesn't have Ragnorok being fought between the Aesir and Vanir, but instead is the final battle between the Aesir and the Frost-Giants. The battle is followed by the destruction of the world. Howard's story only tells us about the fighting Aesir, that the battle takes place on the field of the "Giant's Home", and doesn't mention the Vanir at all. Howard's version aligns itself perfectly with the Norse version.

Hey Dale! I assume you're giving a summary of Norse legend/Ragnarok for the benefit of others. I own Jacob Grimm's Teutonic Mythology set (Dover), amongst other "Viking"/Scandinavian reference works. You're right, the Aesir/Vanir aren't supernatural beings ("gods") in the Hyborian Age (just like London's Aesir/Vanir). Why should we automatically assume that "Jotunheim" refers to supernatural beings? A long-standing theory (current in Howard's day) links the "Jotuns" with the "Jutes", a very mortal, mundane tribe (who produced the immortal Hengist, well-known to REH). Perhaps REH saw the Nordheimer appellation for "frost-giants" as being thursir or "ettins"? One thing to remember is that Nordheimer cosmology was already up-ended/"inverted" (ie, not following "the script" word-for-word) by the fact that "Valhalla" already exists as an afterlife for worthy warriors (see "TF-GD). Also, Ymir's daughter(s) seems to be very reminiscient of the valkyrur, another "out of sequence" aspect of Nordheimer cosmology/theology.

Quote

The giants in Norse mythology represent the untamed, destructive forces of Chaos, and much of it is shown in the light of a endless fight between the civilizing influences (the Aesir) and the chaos of nature (the Giants). By setting the final battle of the Aesir on the field of Jotunheim followed by their subsequent abandonment of Nordheim, Howard is telling us that the Nordheimers lost to the forces of nature in the end; the Ice Age that ended the Hyborian Age. I think it's amazingly cool that Ragnorok ended the Hyborian Age...

Once again, thanks for the recap. Did Niord's Aesir lose the battle? Were they forced from Asgard? That doesn't seem to be the case, necessarily.

Quote

Howard describes Niord's memory of the final battle on the field of Jotunheim as: "a sun setting in a lurid wallow of crimson clouds, blazing on trampled snow where still dark forms lay in pools that were redder than the sunset". I understand that it would have helped in Howard described the bodies in gigantic terms, but it's really vague as to who the bodies belonged to; the Aesir or the giants. Of course, in The Frost-Giant's Daughter, the bodies of the slain giants vanished shortly after Conan killed them, so who's to say whether there would even be giant bodies for Niord to remember. At any rate, the passage is so vague that the "still, dark forms" could be both Aesir and giant bodies.

Why, if this was such a "climactic" battle that forced the Aesir from their homeland, why doesn't Niord (or through him, his elders) relate something to the effect of, "the sons of our god, Ymir, forced us from our lands"? Judging from numbers given in "TVotW" and "Marchers", 500 Aesir warriors might have been present (maybe more) on "the field of Jotunheim". Considering Conan's performance, how many "frost-giants" do you see assaulting the worshippers of Ymir?

Quote

Your sunset/no mountains speculation is intriguing, but it's tied to the idea that Ymir's mountains lay athwart the Vanaheim/Asgard border, which is flat out wrong. The Frost-Giants Daughter describes the battle field as being in Asgard and Ymir's mountains as lying to the north of said battlefield. Conan chases after Atali: "Further and further into the wastes she led him. The land changed; the wide plains gave way to low hills, marching upward in broken ranges. Far to the north he caught a glimpse of towering mountains, blue with the distance, or white with the eternal snows. Above these mountains shone the flaring rays of the borealis." The next paragraph states that the aurora is shining above Conan, which means that Conan is pursuing Atali northward toward Ymir's mountains. Ymir rescues Atali in the "snow-clad hills", so Conan only got as far as the foothills between Ymirs mountains and the plains that lie to the south where he came from. Niord, leader of the Aesir group that tracked Conan, confirms Conan's direction when he asks why the Cimmerian wandered off into "the wastes of the north". Another Aesir confirms that the mountains Conan headed toward where reputed to be the land the god Ymir resides in. If the land surrounding Ymir's mountains is Jotunheim, then the field of Jotunheim is almost certainly the flat plain where Conan fought Wulfhere's band.

You're quite right about the geography, Dale. I have yet to annotate The Frost-Giant's Daughter. I still have to wonder as to how the two branches of Nordheimers achieved such "racial purity" and distinctiveness from each other without a physical barrier. I still believe in the possibility of a mountain range on the Asgard/Vanaheim border.

Quote

I don't remember any passages referring to Ymir and his daughters, but I do know that Atali refers to the two frost-giants that attack Conan as her brothers. And the two giants were definitely frost-giants from their descriptions of frost encrusted armor and icicle spikes for beards. As for the Aesir not knowing about any other frost-giants but Ymir, The Frost-Giant's Daughter pretty much establishes how rare human/giant interaction really is. The average Nordheimer would probably never encounter one in his lifetime, so would be skeptical of Conan's claim. The fact that Jotunheim exists and Ymir's land is known to the Aesir implies that there is something tangible about them, though.

I've never doubted that Atali's brothers were "frost-giants". My point was that, IF they were as numerous as to be able to expel the indomitable Aesir from Asgard, then why were there only two brothers available to attempt a rescue of their sister? They seem pretty rare.

Actually, if I recall correctly, Donnelly didn't believe in Ice Ages and thought that Ragnorok was caused by a comet or asteroid strike near the north Atlantic followed by a drastic cool-down from all the crap in the air.

I believe you might be splitting hairs here, Dale. My point was that Donnelly was (one of) the first to propose that the cataclysmic events of Ragnarok were actually a memory, not a prophecy.
Personally, I have no problem with Ice Ages and cosmic impacts in the same scenario.

[torgospizza]

Kortoso, on Jan 15 2008, 02:19 PM, said:

Did the Picts teach the Aesir "iron-workings"? Then how did they devolve to using copper weapons in Conan's time? Was this tale before Conan's era or before?

I just read this last night, but that's no guarantee my memory's right, Kortoso. The Picts weren't as savage as those in "Beyond the Black River", but were almost there. The story also said in the Picts' location during that time there was no copper available, so they had to revert to iron. So it wasn't exactly contemporaneous (is that a word?) with Conan, though somewhat close. I got the feeling it took place much further south than the Pictish Wilderness, because the shoggoth-like worm was a prototype for Set, whom was worshipped later in Southern lands. In my mind, this all took place several thousand years before Conan. Another reason I think this is that Howard portrayed whites as originating up north and travelling south, the opposite of what science suggests today (Africa/the Middle-east being the "Cradle of Life"). White kingdoms such as Brythunia weren't in existence yet, but came far after the area was settled by the Aesir. If I've misread the story, please correct me, guys.

When I was reading it, I didn't realize it was part of a cycle, and I'm glad to know that now. It was like the third or fourth tale of Howard's I'd read in a row, and they'd all involved reincarnation. That really struck me as cheap and a weak cop-out (I feel the same way about Edgar Rice Burrough's John Carter going to Mars because of astral projection or Buck Rogers' time travel via a gas leak), though the stories were otherwise intriguing. One thing I found surprising was that virtually all of these stories had been adapted into the Conan comics by Roy Thomas. At any rate, I feel better to see they're part of a cycle involving reincarnation, instead of "hey, we need to get this guy back in time and can't figure out how".

[Darkstorm Dale]

deuce, on Jan 16 2008, 06:06 PM, said:

Hey Dale! I assume you're giving a summary of Norse legend/Ragnarok for the benefit of others. I own Jacob Grimm's Teutonic Mythology set (Dover), amongst other "Viking"/Scandinavian reference works. You're right, the Aesir/Vanir aren't supernatural beings ("gods") in the Hyborian Age (just like London's Aesir/Vanir). Why should we automatically assume that "Jotunheim" refers to supernatural beings? A long-standing theory (current in Howard's day) links the "Jotuns" with the "Jutes", a very mortal, mundane tribe (who produced the immortal Hengist, well-known to REH). Perhaps REH saw the Nordheimer appellation for "frost-giants" as being thursir or "ettins"? One thing to remember is that Nordheimer cosmology was already up-ended/"inverted" (ie, not following "the script" word-for-word) by the fact that "Valhalla" already exists as an afterlife for worthy warriors (see "TF-GD). Also, Ymir's daughter(s) seems to be very reminiscient of the valkyrur, another "out of sequence" aspect of Nordheimer cosmology/theology.

I'm not going to reiterate my arguments, but I will comment on a few of your ideas.
Jotunheim meant "Giant's Homeland" even in Howard's day and age. He had already given Ymir (and the Frost-Giants) a residence in the Hyborian Age when he stated (in FGD): "This is his land and the god bides among yonder mountains..." If Jotunheim isn't the name of Ymir's realm, I don't know what would be. They are functionally identical.
In Howard's story, the Frost-giants were supernatural beings, even though they were real. Seriously, Occam's Razor is our friend.
Atali is similar to a Valkyrur only in that she roams fields of battle. Her M.O. is about 180 degrees different, though.

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Once again, thanks for the recap. Did Niord's Aesir lose the battle? Were they forced from Asgard? That doesn't seem to be the case, necessarily.

Howard describes that battle as the "Armageddon of the Aesir". Armageddon is usually meant to be the final battle before God returns and I believe that this is what Howard implies. That the "Armageddon of the Aesir" is the final battle for their homeland. They left shortly after this "final battle", so I think a fairly good case can be made that they lost their war and left the region. If they had won, they would have stayed, to my way of thinking.

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Why, if this was such a "climactic" battle that forced the Aesir from their homeland, doesn't Niord (or through him, his elders) relate something to the effect of, "the sons of our god, Ymir, forced us from our lands"? Judging from numbers given in "TVotW" and "Marchers", 500 Aesir warriors might have been present (maybe more) on "the field of Jotunheim". Considering Conan's performance, how many "frost-giants" do you see assaulting the worshippers of Ymir?

I don't know why Howard didn't always write in a manner that made things crystal clear. I think that he figured what he wrote was good enough to get the point across. It worked for me at any rate.
How many? All of them. There is no indication that Ymir bestows any favors on the Aesir that worship him. He may not even be aware of it. Just because I can worship a thunderstorm doesn't mean that the storm treats me in a special manner. If Ymir decides it's time to start the Ice Age, its going to start regardless of what any lessor being's wishes might entail. Sort of a Hyborian Age version of sending the wreaking crew to demolish the neighborhood, send everyone packing and establish his new digs. My take on it anyway.

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You're quite right about the geography, Dale. I have yet to annotate The Frost-Giant's Daughter. I still have to wonder as to how the two branches of Nordheimers achieved such "racial purity" and distinctiveness from each other without a physical barrier. I still believe in the possibility of a mountain range on the Asgard/Vanaheim border.

In an earlier post you implied that the text should have mentioned a mountain range and it didn't. You really can't have this both ways. Maybe there is a big river between the two lands instead.

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I've never doubted that Atali's brothers were "frost-giants". My point was that, IF they were as numerous as to be able to expel the indomitable Aesir from Asgard, then why were there only two brothers available to attempt a rescue of their sister? They seem pretty rare.

Because they weren't really trying to rescue their sister. They were setting up an ambush. They probably never needed more than two before they met Conan. They know better now...

[Axerules]

I like a lot REH's reincarnation yarns. I did read J. London's Star-Rover last year, and yes the similarities are striking. I don't have a preference among the JA stories. I appreciate more James than Conrad, among the reincarnation stuff, IIRC.

Personnaly, I don't have the shadow of a doubt about the James Allison stories being Hyborian tales. This one is IMO as good as the others.Taken aside the disturbing "aryanism", it has an incredible verve and power. Perhaps has it something to do with the naration, but I like them more than a lot of Conan stories. An Hyborian tale told in first person, maybe does a feeling of closeness to James than to the surhuman Conan also appeals to me, I don't know, they're overall thrilling for me.

IMO, the use of legendary references was extremely well done here. REH, in the two first sentences, links Niord to "Tyr, or Perseus, or Siegfried, or Beowulf, or Saint-George". Niord would have come first. The short nod to Ragnarok and Goetterdaemmerung/Götterdämmerung seems to inflame some imagination. It is meant to do that. Bravo REH ! Another success with an evocative name. Nevertheless, it is less central to the story, IMHO, than the treks, "racial" memories and than the "first's" monster-slayer legend.
"Rooting" serpent (another gigantic Satha !)/worm killing myths and legends of IE people and tying them to his pseudo-history, as remembrances of the Hyborian Age is already very cool and works very well for me.

I also don't see how can the Frost Giants be so REAL and numerous ? Mr Rippke (welcome back !), YOU wrote in The Frost Giant's Daughter SotM topic:

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It is interesting in that Howard plays with the idea of nested realities. The supernatural world is usually invisible to the mundane world, while the supernatural incorporates the mundane world into its reality. The supernatural world, however, isn't exactly the same; its appearance is somewhat strange; it shimmers and its colors are heightened. The supernatural realm is a magical fairyland of enchantment. And it has its own denizens; beings that are usually unable to interact with the creature of the mundane world. Atali and her brothers.

And now, there's a WHOLE RACE of denizens hailing from an "enchanted landscape" living, fighting and dying in REH's "Jotunheim" ? I thought you said they were NOT REAL. Did they left their nested reality to spring ouranos-like out of Conan's head just for this fight ?

Did Niord said explicitely that the Æsirs left home because of Armaggedon ?
The treks in TVotW started before Niord's lifetime: "the epic drifts of my people had already begun"...

I can't help myself, forgive me fore being pedantic: Ignatius Donnelly explained his comet take in Ragnarok: The Age of Fire and Gravel (1883), where he also demonstrated similaries with other cultures' legends.

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According to Professor Anderson's etymology of the word, it means "the darkness of the gods"; from regin, gods, and rökr, darkness; but it may, more properly, be derived from the Icelandic, Danish, and Swedish regn, a rain, and rök, smoke, or dust; and it may mean the rain of dust, for the clay came first as dust; it is described in some Indian legends as ashes."

Interesting topic, about a fine story.

This post has been edited by Axerules: 17 January 2008 - 09:57 PM