80 replies to this topic

[berserkmax]

?The Vale of Lost Women? is my least favorite, and was never published in Weird Tales, for good reason. I really don?t care for "Xuthal of the Dusk," because ?Red Nails? is the same story, and it is writen by a more daring and mature writer. ?Devil in Iron? isn?t one of Conan?s better ones either, as well as ?Iron Shadows in the Moon.?

I am surprise to know that ?The Black Stranger? was never published in Weird Tales. That?s a great story.

?People of the Black Circlel? is awesome. I'm surprised to read that one of you didn't care for it.

Top three stories: "Beyond the Black River," "Tower of the Elephant," and "Red Nails"--though I love "Queen of the Black Coast."

[Prosercunus]

Right before I clicked on this topic "God in The Bowl" came to mind right away, funny the topic creator said that one right away.

[VoragoExcarnator]

I agree with you Ironhand (partially) Conan threatens to take his hand to his wench in Xuthal , he even threatens to 'skin her' if she grabs his sword arm ever again , though I think that was just spouting off in his anger . In Rogues I/T/House , the alternative to Conan throwing his backstabbing ex in the cesspool would be to do her actual harm & that would seem below Conan - if he's so mean & bad that he killed her new bird-dogging co-conspirator beau so easily - it would be uncharacteristically cruel of him to have to do the same to a weak woman , no matter how devious she was . Tossing her in the sh!t seemed the absolute perfect thing for him to do at that moment I.M.Op. - I know I'd be hard pressed to think of something more just !

I think both "Queen of the Black Coast" and "Rogues in the House" are solid. Taranaich already typed a bit, but Painbrush, you're at the risk of being Ricky Ricardo-ed like xssurdinynexes up there I think you mentioned not liking QOTBC in the racism thread, but I don't think you ever elaborated. Gimme something to work with man, cause I think QOTBC is one of the stronger tales.

I love the premise of QOTBC , & it starts out as one of the best with Conan running from the law after killing his judge , he basically carjacks( boat-jacks) the merchant sailors , running into the pirates & even the bloody battle & his first ship-mates getting killed off , - still solid up to that point . It's the hokey way Belit throws herself at Conans feet after he kills a good chunk of her crew off that starts the story downhill . I can see he's trying to paint Belit as a bad-ass on par with Conan himself , but the way he portrays her she lacks any of that 'rough-code' that makes Conan who he is . She's infinitely untrustable & that's established almost from the first . The way she later sacrifices more of her faithful crew to a boobytrap , while grabbing Conan & pulling him aside & just watching their fate - it's almost too much to bear that Conan doesn't cuff her upside her head for being so devious !

They would need the crew if for nothing else to carry their loot , not to mention fight , not to mention the supernatural element they had to consider etc. & all of that is what raised the question about the racism - it almost seems like Howard made the black crew disposable for all intents & purposes in this story . Not such a major big-deal & still an arguable point , since he made the merchant-sailors who took to Conan readily so expendable first . I try not to see it that way , but the only other way is if he himself didn't mean to make the crew seem so insignificant/expendable , that Belit was just too much of a devious scumbag , I don't like either way . I can't see Conan keeping her around for any length of time . Maybe that's why she dies (?)

& Whether or not you would think folks in Hyboria were any more racist than folks of the 20th century , - I can't accept that a crew would have worshipped a foreign woman so much , especially if she evidently thought so little of them , way past any expected rough pirate sentiments/or lack thereof . They're fierce , loyal & brave & don't deserve their fate , it goes contrary to ALL else Howard ever described Hyboria as , or Conan . Not just criminals meeting untimely fates either , that could have/should have(?) been left to the foes in the story to do them in , not their leader . & Conan seems to be a 'spectator' in the lousy happenings of this story , rather than a 'participator' in any meaningful way . He starts out as the boss in this story , then he's neutered at the halfway point . & the crew have the requisite traits to be heroes , noble-savages , whatever term of Hyborian endearment you could want , but Howard leaves them as cannon-fodder so to speak & treats them like stuttering red-headed stepchildren . Those are the reasons QOBC sticks in my craw ! Howard on his worst days was a much better storyteller than this & I can't help but always try to analyze what was going through his head when he wrote the 2nd half of this story - to the point of distraction . To the point of not being able to just switch over to glide & go with the story & enjoy it like I can with almost all the rest of his writing , even some of his weaker stuff .

& like the points I started this post with about Conans personality - I think the least Conan would do to Belit would be to drop 'her' into a cesspool !

I don't think Conan likes being violent to women, but I don't doubt that he would if he had to. We can presume that Conan may have killed women of the Vanir or rival Cimmerian clans in his youth; and he almost certainly killed a woman or two in Red Nails, but by and large he seems to blench at violence against women--at least anything more vigorous than a hearty shake. I only have one book with me at the moment, but we see examples of Conan's rough chivalry in quite a few stories. In Red Nails he finds the idea of drawing sword on any woman repugnant (and yet he presumably slaughters Xolatancas without a hint of remorse). In Xuthal, Natala is convinced Conan would kill Thalis for her treachery, and REH says Conan has an innate decency that was Natala's best protection. In Rogues, he doesn't kill his ex. He doesn't kill Belit, though described as a whim, I'm sure her femininity and beauty have something to do with it. In the Black Stranger he gives Belesa and Tina all his jewels at the end of the story. This is off the top of my head, but there may be more.

Belit throwing herself at Conan IS pretty hokey. I can't say I like that aspect of her introduction, or much of her character really. She's important as Conan's great love, and I like the idea of a Pirate couple ranging up and down the coasts burning and slaying as they go, but she's not as cool a character as say Valeria or even the Devi Yasmina. I can't say I see her as too inherently untrustable, I mean she IS a pirate. I never found her sacrifice of the men too troubling, except as an indicator of her favoritism.

But the crew definitely deserves better than they got, and Belit was pushing the crew very hard and they were undermanned. I much prefer the crew in Hour of the Dragon (who presumably go on to do their own stuff after Conan departs to finish his quest? Do they come ashore and fight in his ranks? hahaha) Yeah, Belit and all the rest could have used some fleshing out, and as I've argued elsewhere their deaths are lame lame lame. You could probably make it look great on flim though--sort of a horror movie segment after having action for the whole first half. Following the crew as they get picked off one by one by the were-Hyenas and the Winged One, interspersed with Conan's dreams. Then back to the action and thrilling finale at the pyramid. It could make a GREAT movie, very cinematic. If people complained about LOTR though, they'll definitely be up in arms over the perceived racism in this one.

Conan consistently takes command of pirate crews by way of superior physical strength, charisma, leadership ability, and intelligence. That last is important, we know in Black Stranger that Conan is the only pirate left who can read a map and do captainy things. It's possible that Belit was the only pirate left aboard after an unsuccessful raid who was able to read maps and chart courses and whatnot. Perhaps a botched raid killed her mate (the former captain) and some higher ranking crew and she was the only person left who could fill the leadership position. Worship doesn't make much sense to me, and bothers me a bit (just as Conan's offhand comment in teeth of Gwalhur does, when he says he'll go skin the people of Punt out of their eyeteeth because they worship White women, the whole thing makes no sense and is offensive and dumb tbh), but I can definitely see how Belit could become a respected leader. If she'd been a man, Conan would have killed her or thrown her overboard, and if she hadn't immediately seduced him she likely would have suffered a man's fate and been usurped. So she took a great risk in taking Conan aboard, for I dont know how much gain in the end. I suppose he's a lover, a great fighter, and he has mail which is a great advantage, but her motivation really seemed to be love at first sight. I remember Dale Rippke (I think) posting something about Belit's leadership position but I don't think its still online. Dunno if he posts here, but if anyone owns his work, an excerpt from his book wouldn't be amiss if he signed off on it.

REH really does deal the crew a bum hand here, you're right. At least they took their toll of the were-hyena pack! (though I have no idea how Conan could know this. Does he see the original number in his dream?) He does! It's 50 in his dream and 20 when he fights them.

I don't much mind Conan taking a subordinate role to Belit. It gives her some power in the relationship, gives her something to do, and keeps her interesting. She'd be really intolerable if she was Sancha part 2.

This definitely has some elements that don't work, but there are a lot that do. This is imo one of Howard's best weird menaces. We know he's fond of snakes and ape/ape-men, but The Winged One is smart and evil, not brutish and dumb like most of Conan's opponents. Hell, Conan is losing until he gets some supernatural help. I like how it uses subordinates and the crashing masonry to attack, it's quite a nice change from the usual charging attack--> quick mortal strike by Conan --> survive death throes of beast type progression these fights seem to take (though on reflection I think Thak took a whole bunch of stabs to go down). I love love love the were-Hyenas, and the whole concept behind the story is really awesome: Conan hijacks a boat, is the sole survivor of the attack (btw I love when REH gives Conan some advantage besides just superior strength and speed, like the magic girdle in POtBC, or mail in this story or BtBR) and defects to the pirate crew, becoming the mate of a Pirate Queen and spending years raiding until a supernatural menace kills Belit and the crew. Conan fights the winged ape and is almost losing until Belit intervenes and he manages to kill the thing. And the whole thing ends with a pyre and a somber Conan looking on the burning ship.

Man, can't you see it? This strikes me as a great Conan movie with very little padding needed. It'd be natural to flesh out the years and YEARS of raiding, give Belit and the crew a little facetime, and boom, blockbuster hit. Especially if this is not the first Conan movie. It's a little different from what we know of Conan, and Belit and Conan being in love will be a nice change for audiences used to the insipid heroines and casual, superficial relationships of the other Conan tales. In the romantic respect its sort of a Casino Royale for Conan. Sort of a bit OT now, but the best Conan tale to start with would need to be a fairly flimsy one, which leaves a lot of room for background and explanation of the world, Conan's childhood, and general 1st movie setup stuff. QOTBC works best as an Empire Strikes Back type movie--the rare sequel that ups the ante and shows a drastic change in the hero's life: first love, tragedy, abandonment of piracy, entering of his phase in Kush etc. etc.

Edited by VoragoExcarnator, 23 May 2008 - 04:30 AM.

[korak]

First, I love God in the Bowl, Vale of Lost Women, and the Black Stranger, and I think Farnsworth Wright could be an idiot sometimes. I love REH as a short story writer, and the shorter the better. The ones I like least are the stories that were long drawn out desert adventures, similar to the El Borak novellettes someone mentioned, in which Howard has Conan off stage for many of the chapters. A Witch Shall be Born is kind of the epitome of those, even though it has the great scene of his crucifixion, but just a small part of the story. I like the little tales of Conan as a loner in some kind of weird old Lovecraftian setting, a lost city or an old castle, etc, not vast sweeping epics where he is the general of some army. There are exceptions- Hour of the Dragon is superb, and I love Scarlet Citadel, but all those long men's sweat adventure epics like something from Argosy pulp magazine bore me mostly, hard to plow through those.

On the Belit matter, I was not aware that she had any choice in sacrificing some men to retrieve the treasure. Was there some other way to get the treasure out of there without losing a couple of guys? How many died, anyway?

[cherryfunk]

Count me as another 'God in the Bowl'er when it comes to this question.

I'll start. My least favorite REH Conan story is "The God in the Bowl." I commend Howard for trying something different, but as versatile a character as Conan is, he doesn't mesh well with the Agatha Christie-type locked room mystery. This is one story I usually skip whenever I come across it because I find it talky, slow and boring.

Sure thing , but Agatha Christie , Conan Doyle or Poe never had folks threatening popping out someones eyeballs , kicking their guts broken , or gutting them with a poiniard if they don't shutup ! My least favorite is still Queen O/T Black Coast ( can you believe it ??!!) - BUT i haven't read vale or black Circle & a couple others in a few years to weigh them against it .

Queen of the Black Coast? Really? Wow. It's one of the best, and his writing is extraordinary in that tale. He was inspired when he wrote it.

They rounded the mysterious bend that shut out the sight of the sea,
and sunset found them forging steadily against the sluggish flow,
avoiding sandbars where strange reptiles coiled. Not even a crocodile
did they see, nor any four-legged beast or winged bird coming down to
the water's edge to drink. On through the blackness that preceded
moonrise they drove, between banks that were solid palisades of
darkness, whence came mysterious rustlings and stealthy footfalls, and
the gleam of grim eyes. And once an inhuman voice was lifted in awful
mockery the cry of an ape, Belit said, adding that the souls of evil
men were imprisoned in these manlike animals as punishment for past
crimes. But Conan doubted, for once, in a gold-barred cage in an
Hyrkanian city, he had seen an abysmal sad-eyed beast which men told
him was an ape, and there had been about it naught of the demoniac
malevolence which vibrated in the shrieking laughter that echoed from
the black jungle.

Then the moon rose, a splash of blood, ebony-barred, and the jungle
awoke in horrific bedlam to greet it. Roars and howls and yells set
the black warriors to trembling, but all this noise, Conan noted, came
from farther back in the jungle, as if the beasts no less than men
shunned the black waters of Zarkheba.

Rising above the black denseness of the trees and above the waving
fronds, the moon silvered the river, and their wake became a rippling
scintillation of phosphorescent bubbles that widened like a shining
road of bursting jewels. The oars dipped into the shining water and
came up sheathed in frosty silver. The plumes on the warrior's head-
piece nodded in the wind, and the gems on sword hilts and harness
sparkled frostily.

That one passage has more poetry and power than God in the Bowl in its entirety if you ask me.

"Devil in Iron" is just mediocre to weak, not outright objectionable. Octavia is fairly bland and unmemorable, though she does escape from slavery on her own (like the girl in "Iron Shadows in the Moon"), so points for that! On the plus side, Khostral Khel is actually kind of a cool villain: he's a far cry from Howard's giant ape(men), snakes, and wizards. Sort of superficially similar to the statues in "Iron Shadows", but before I started writing this I didn't realize how cool a villain he was. It's not he who weighs the story down. We also see a rare magical Hyborian weapon in the knife used to kill Khostral Khel. The only other magical items I can think of are the girdle in "People of the Black Circle" and the healing droughts in "Xuthal of the Dusk." We also get a long dead civilization returning back to life (remind anyone of "Hour of the Dragon"?). So a lot of good elements. Unfortunately the story as a whole doesn't work. The coincidence is a big issue, and the whole thing seems a little fragmented. Heck even Wikipedia says: "Due to its plot loopholes and borrowed elements from Iron Shadows in the Moon, some Howard scholars claim this story is the weakest of the early Conan tales."

That's a good analysis. There are some wonderful pieces in the story -- I love the re-animated woman's tale of the fall of Dagon -- but the story just doesn't quite work...

Edited by cherryfunk, 19 May 2008 - 05:20 PM.

[Spartan198]

This is a hard one.

I'd have to say The Pool of the Black Ones, I think it's called. I enjoyed it, but was never really drawn into it.

[cherryfunk]

Pool of the Black Ones feels a bit 'off' to me. I love the first half, when Conan joins the pirate crew. And the concept of the lost island and the strange city is compelling. But the Black Ones, their bizarre ritual, and the conflict with them just didn't work for me. It felt undeveloped and sort of rushed; I think it needed another draft or two to get the story where it needed to be.

[korak]

Pool of the Black Ones feels a bit 'off' to me. I love the first half, when Conan joins the pirate crew. And the concept of the lost island and the strange city is compelling. But the Black Ones, their bizarre ritual, and the conflict with them just didn't work for me. It felt undeveloped and sort of rushed; I think it needed another draft or two to get the story where it needed to be.

I thought Pool of the Black Ones was just the type of really Weird Tale that I love! I like Howard because of his weirdness. Buscema did a striking adaptation of it too.

[Spartan198]

Well, no disrespect, I just wasn't sucked right into it like I was with the likes of Red Nails and A Witch Shall Be Born.

[amster]

I thought Pool of the Black Ones was just the type of really Weird Tale that I love! I like Howard because of his weirdness. Buscema did a striking adaptation of it too.

Loved "Pool of the Black One", too. Conan is such a miserable b@##%d in this story, the way he kills Zaprovo and steals his girlfriend. That makes the story really stand out for me; what Conan is truly capable of. I loved the Buscema adaption, too. I think his work was really breathtaking when Al Alcada did the inks.

[cherryfunk]

Hmmm, it actually bothered me the way Conan ambushes Zaprovo and kills him for no reason. The guy saved his life and took him into his crew, I think that an honorable man would respect that. Maybe that's another reason I don't like the story -- I hate it when Conan is clearly dishonorable. One of the facets of his character that I love is his sense of barbaric honor which REH often contrasts with the two-faced 'honor' of civilized men. That might be one reason that Beyond the Black River resonates so much with me -- Conan, having taken up with the Aquilonians, risks his own life to save the settlers, even though he could just take off and save his own skin.

[amster]

Hmmm, it actually bothered me the way Conan ambushes Zaprovo and kills him for no reason. The guy saved his life and took him into his crew, I think that an honorable man would respect that. Maybe that's another reason I don't like the story -- I hate it when Conan is clearly dishonorable. One of the facets of his character that I love is his sense of barbaric honor which REH often contrasts with the two-faced 'honor' of civilized men. That might be one reason that Beyond the Black River resonates so much with me -- Conan, having taken up with the Aquilonians, risks his own life to save the settlers, even though he could just take off and save his own skin.

Well, he didn't exactly ambush him. He didn't stab him in the back. He challenged him to a fair duel and killed him fair and square. He didn't exactly kill him for no reason, either. He killed him in order to assume the role of "top dog", which is the law of the jungle, so to speak. Honorable? They're pirates, which isn't exactly an honorable profession. They kill innocent people and take their property for a living. So I think even Zaprovo would laugh at the notion of "playing by the rules". But I agree with what you say about "Beyond the Black River". That makes Conan such a three dimensional character. Everyone is a shade of gray. Even "good" people are capable of commiting terrible acts, and even "bad" people are capable of acts of selflessness. To paraphrase REH, its just a whim of circumstance.

[Taranaich]

Hey cherryfunk, good to see you settling in!

Hmmm, it actually bothered me the way Conan ambushes Zaprovo and kills him for no reason. The guy saved his life and took him into his crew, I think that an honorable man would respect that. Maybe that's another reason I don't like the story -- I hate it when Conan is clearly dishonorable. One of the facets of his character that I love is his sense of barbaric honor which REH often contrasts with the two-faced 'honor' of civilized men. That might be one reason that Beyond the Black River resonates so much with me -- Conan, having taken up with the Aquilonians, risks his own life to save the settlers, even though he could just take off and save his own skin.

I don't think Conan really had any other choice. In another situation where Conan owed a man his life, no matter how dastardly he appeared, Conan would honour that debt. Olgerd Vladislav seemed as much a scoundrel as Zaporavo, but because he saved Conan's life, Conan did something unprecedented among banditry: he let him live! I think if Conan had a chance to gain captaincy of the Wastrel without taking Zaporavo's life, he'd have taken it.

Having said that, he did at least have the decency to challenge him to one-on-one combat, away from the crew, as was the law of piracy. (This was likely established so that factions within the crew wouldn't affect the outcome.) Of course, given Conan's superiority over Zaporavo in just about every way he might as well have stabbed him in the back, for all the good a "fair fight" would have done him. But Conan can't help being better, it's in his nature.

Interestingly, a lot of the tales considered the best - Black River, Tower of the Elephant, Black Circle, Hour of the Dragon, Red Nails - have that "barbaric honour" in it, so there may well be something in that.

[Majere]

I'm currently re-reading Queen of the Black Coast and I gotta say... I'm agreeing with everyone who has a problem with Belit's introduction. The whole "I'm Belit!" in majestic tones while throwing herself at Conan's feet is a little embarrassing. "I'm yours, by blood and fire and conquest" or whatever that line was really bugged me too, especially since I had just finished reading Black Colossus right before it, which featured Yasmela saying virtually the exact same thing to Conan at the end of the tale.

REH reminds me alot of Sergio Leone (director of the Man with No Name trilogy, Once Upon a Time in America) in that he's perfect when he's detailing a situation concerning men. But every single time it comes to women, he struggles and seems to be out of place. I wouldn't call it crap writing (or crap directing) on REH's part, because he's too good an author for that, but reading REH's dialgoue from or about female characters is definitely not the highlight of my (reading) day.

[amster]

But every single time it comes to women, he struggles and seems to be out of place. I wouldn't call it crap writing (or crap directing) on REH's part, because he's too good an author for that, but reading REH's dialgoue from or about female characters is definitely not the highlight of my (reading) day.

Its interesting to note that in "Red Nails", REH handles Conan's relationship with Valeria much more maturely and realistically, no doubt due to his real world experience with Novalyn Price. Still, I love that scene from QOTBC anyway. With the exception of Conan's crucifixion, its the most memorable scene in the entire series (at least for me). That's got to count for something.

[jeddak]

I have a confession to make. Up until recently, my only exposure to Conan was through the comics and the movies. I've been reading the Coming of Conan and so far my least favorite story is God in the Bowl. It was a great story, but it was just a little slow for my tastes. I like action and there just wasn't enough until the very end.

[jak]

Probably get booed for this, but I actually don't like Red Nails all that much. Maybe the claustrophobic setting of a walled city after such an excellent battle with the dragon in the woods. Maybe a bit too much Aztec influence. It isn't the writing itself since I greatly admire REH's Conan stories, just the setting, really.

Edited by jak, 15 July 2008 - 05:58 PM.

[Taranaich]

Probably get booed for this, but I actually don't like Red Nails all that much. Maybe the claustrophobic setting of a walled city after such an excellent battle with the dragon in the woods. Maybe a bit too much Aztec influence. It isn't the writing itself since I greatly admire REH's Conan stories, just the setting, really.

I think the only problem I have with Red Nails is that there are so few left in Xuchotl: after battling with dragons, floating skulls and crawling beasties, the final battle having less than 50 people in it seems a tad underwhelming. It's appropriate to show the sad ending of the once-mighty Tecuhltli and Xotalanc, but in terms of scale it doesn't match up to what came before, even with Tolkemec running riot. I can't see how it could have been improved, though: maybe if Tascela unleashed some terrible sorcery as she died that Conan & Valeria have to battle, or something along those lines.

[amster]

Probably get booed for this, but I actually don't like Red Nails all that much. Maybe the claustrophobic setting of a walled city after such an excellent battle with the dragon in the woods. Maybe a bit too much Aztec influence. It isn't the writing itself since I greatly admire REH's Conan stories, just the setting, really.

I think the only problem I have with Red Nails is that there are so few left in Xuchotl: after battling with dragons, floating skulls and crawling beasties, the final battle having less than 50 people in it seems a tad underwhelming. It's appropriate to show the sad ending of the once-mighty Tecuhltli and Xotalanc, but in terms of scale it doesn't match up to what came before, even with Tolkemec running riot. I can't see how it could have been improved, though: maybe if Tascela unleashed some terrible sorcery as she died that Conan & Valeria have to battle, or something along those lines.

Funny, I made that point on the Red Nails movie thread a few weeks back, regarding the producers' decision to bring in zombies to spruce up the climax.

[Maelstrom]

Probably get booed for this, but I actually don't like Red Nails all that much. Maybe the claustrophobic setting of a walled city after such an excellent battle with the dragon in the woods. Maybe a bit too much Aztec influence. It isn't the writing itself since I greatly admire REH's Conan stories, just the setting, really.

I kind of agree with you on that...It seems like Red Nails has always been lauded as one of Howard's very best Conan stories. I still think it is a good story, but personally it doesn't rank very high in comparison to many of Howard's other works.

Okay, everybody, get your rotten fruit ready to throw at me...My least favorite Conan yarn is Beyond the Black River. It's not that I don't think it is a good story, it's just that I can't get the American west frontier out of my mind when I read it.