[Scott Oden]

Hi all,

Anyone hereabouts fluent in Arabic? I have a "named" weapon in The Lion of Cairo, a sword called by its former owners "Hammer of the Infidel". The closest thing I can come up with, using my trusty Hippocrene Romanized Arabic Dictionary, is "Shakush al-Kafir" (maybe even "Shakush'l-Kafir", though that one looks even more cumbersome to me). Is this correct? If not, does anyone know what the correct name for a weapon called "Hammer of the Infidel" would be?

Oh, and while I'm on the subject, how would one say "I banish thee" in Arabic?

Thanks in advance!

Scott (who knows all of one language: bad English)

[deuce]

Hey Scott! Considering that Unausprechlichen Kulten doesn't really mean "Nameless Cults", how about "Chastizer" or "Scourge" instead of "Hammer"? You could just say the name meant "Hammer". It worked for REH.
BTW, how about, "Fist of Allah"?

[Scott Oden]

Hi Deuce! I like the sound of "Scourge of the Infidel" or "Scourge of Allah". The weapon, a rather large specimen of Khyber knife (I shortened its "official" name to salawar; it's about 29" long, which makes it roughly the same length as a Roman gladius), has a history that extends back before the rise of Islam. It had another, Persian, name prior to falling into the hands of a tribe of Afghans, who passed it from father to son. I'm thinking that the blade's original name is synonymous with its Arabic name.

Scourge is good though. And not in my Arabic dictionary

Best,

Scott

[deuce]

ROCK! I'm a big fan of the salawar. I also don't think that the Persian quaddara gets enough love. Most Muslim/Middle Eastern swords before the Turkish/Mongol incursions were straight. Howard and JRRT shared a conviction that the curved/crooked sword conveys/denotes "Easternness". Can't wait for your novel.

[Ironhand]

deuce, on Feb 19 2008, 09:13 PM, said:

ROCK! I'm a big fan of the salawar. I also don't think that the Persian quaddara gets enough love. Most Muslim/Middle Eastern swords before the Turkish/Mongol incursions were straight. Howard and JRRT share a conviction that the curved/crooked sword conveys "Easternness". Can't wait for your novel.

A curved sword denotes "horsemanliness".

[Axerules]

Hey Scott !
I only have smatterings of Arabic and can't say if your translation is correct or not, but in my French/Arabic dictionary, the (phonetic) translation of Hammer ("marteau" en Français) is different, it's Midaqq. It was written by an Arab fluent in both languages.
How does Midaqq al-kafir (or kuffar) sound in English ?

This post has been edited by Axerules: 22 February 2008 - 04:19 AM

[deuce]

Axerules, on Feb 22 2008, 01:42 AM, said:

Hey Scott !
I only have smatterings of Arabic and can't say if your translation is correct or not, but in my French/Arabic dictionnary, the (phonetic) translation of Hammer ("marteau" en Français) is different, it's Midaqq. It was written by an Arab fluent in both languages.
How does Midaqq al-kafir (or kuffar) sound in English ?

So what are the words for "scourge/flail/chastizer/fist/ fraternity paddle"?

[Scott Oden]

Hey Axe!

It sounds better than "Shakush" One of my blog-readers has an Egyptian step-father, I discovered, so I have the question out to that gentleman . . . hopefully he'll come back with something a smidge more poetic. "Midaqq" is the word for "hammer" in the Syrian dialect; "shakush" is from the Egyptian dialect. I have no clue what it might be in classical Arabic

Regarding swords: in the 12th century, the prevalent sword style among the Arabs was a straight, two-edged sword without much of a point -- according to Osprey Books, it was descended from the spatha; the Seljuk Turks introduced a slightly-curved, single-edged cavalry saber. The half-moon scimitar didn't take hold till Ottoman times.

I've never discovered how old the Khyber knife pattern is, but I'm taking it all the way back to the time of Alexander the Great. The one in the book was forged in the Afghan highlands for a man called Spitamenes, by a Persian smith of Damascus who fled the Macedonian invasion; the smith, a devout Zoroastrian, named it "*blank* of the Infidel".

Scott

[Axerules]

Hi Deuce & Scott !

deuce, on Feb 22 2008, 01:45 AM, said:

So what are the words for "scourge/flail/chastizer/fist/ fraternity paddle"?

dahia or bliyya/blia (scourge/God's wrath).

Another of your ideas, fist: kobda.

I have no knowledge of classical Arabic, I did a (quick) search in a library and didn't found any French-to-classical dictionary with phonetics...
Mine is a French/Maghrebi Arabic dictionary. Midaqq must be used in several dialects, I had no idea it was also a Syrian word.

[Kortoso]

Got an answer from elsewhere:

http://larp.tribe.ne...81-8e42d34061d2

Quote

The short answer is Shakush Al-Kafer (Sha-KUSH Al-KAAfer) is "Hammer of the Infidel"

The long answer is that, you're pretty right on as far as your research. There are a couple of ways to say it. There is a formal, official Arabic and there is the Arabic that people use to talk to each other. The latter one changes quite a bit depending on where you go, but luckily the words you use don't change too much.

In the spoken Arabic, the work is Shakush, Shakuch (both Egyptian), Chakuch (Iraqi). Infidel is the same; Kafer.

Therefore Shakush Al-Kafer would be the words you would probably want to use.
Sha-kUsh Al-KAA-fer. The "a" in Kafer is stressed, the "u" in Shakush.
Sometimes when people are speaking fast, they cut off letters. It happens in English and Spanish. This is why you sometimes get something like Shakush 'l-Kafer.

Official Arabic the word for "hammer" is Matraqa.
Infidel is Kafer.
Hammer of the Infidel would be Matraqat Al-Kafer
The "t" at the end is a grammatical addition.

The "e" and "i" in Kafer (Kafir) are more or less according to preference, The A" is not. Nor are the vowels in Shakush changeable.

Lion of Cairo would be Asid Al-Qahira
Asid (Ah-Sid)(like the English word "Acid"). Cairo is called Al-Qahira in Arabic. Al-QAA-hi-rah (the "i" is like "hit"). The stress in Asid is on the "a" and in Al-Qahira on the "a" following the "q".

Banish is a word that a lot of uneducated Arabs probably won't understand. To say "I banish you" would be Amheeka (if speaking to a male) or Amheeki (if speaking to a female). Saying Amheek without the "a" or "i" is not perfectly grammatically correct but would be much more widely used, since it's easier.

Hope this wasn't too confusing.

[Scott Oden]

Whoa! Thanks, Kortoso! I've been going back and forth between Hammer of the Infidel and Scourge of the Infidel -- Sut al-Kafer, but I do like the way Matraqat al-Kafer sounds ("sounds like a weapon" as a friend of mine would say). Thanks for the help!

Best,

Scott