342 replies to this topic

[Kortoso]

That would be hot.

[Kortoso]

A read through Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces (highly recommended BTW) yields many insights regarding this novel.

Campbell's insight was that important myths from around the world which have survived for thousands of years, all share a fundamental structure. This fundamental structure contains a number of stages, which include:

• A call to adventure, which the hero has to accept or decline
• A road of trials, regarding which the hero succeeds or fails
• Achieving the goal or "boon", which often results in important self-knowledge
• A return to the ordinary world, again as to which the hero can succeed or fail
• Applying the boon, in which what the hero has gained can be used to improve the world

REH gives us such obvious hints of the Hero's Descent into the Underworld as, okay, Conan as executioner, oarsman on a funeral barge, along which river? the Styx of course... Get it?

Also I think that we have Xenobia, Albiona and Zelata as Maiden, Mother and Crone, don't we?

[Axerules]

So, I'm in the midst of a big project involving original typescripts, including drafts, all sorts of stuff. Today at lunch I come across an early draft of Hour of the Dragon. Near the beginning, as the dead wizard starts to come alive, one of the players says:

?Ishtar!? he gasped. ?It is Xaltotun!?and he lives! Valerius! Tarascus! Amalric! Do you see?"

Or, at least that is what is in the Weird Tales version. But in the version I was looking at it says:

?Ishtar!? he gasped. ?Thoth-Amon spoke truth. It is Xaltotun!?and he lives! Valerius! Tarascus! Amalric! Do you see?"


What?!? Thoth-Amon spoke the truth about what? IDing the corpse? The power of the Heart? The spell would work?

And who'd he speak it to? One of the conspirators? Some spy?

What REH was planning to do with the early foreshadowing of Thoth-Amon and his contact, somehow, with the conspirators, I dunno. Obviously REH changed his mind and got rid of it later, leaving Thoth-Amon strictly as unseen and inactive Boss Wizard in Stygia. Damn curious.

Thanks for that Paul.

I second Kortoso, it would be great if you could make the map available to us.

[Strom]

So, I'm in the midst of a big project involving original typescripts, including drafts, all sorts of stuff. Today at lunch I come across an early draft of Hour of the Dragon. Near the beginning, as the dead wizard starts to come alive, one of the players says:

?Ishtar!? he gasped. ?It is Xaltotun!?and he lives! Valerius! Tarascus! Amalric! Do you see?"

Or, at least that is what is in the Weird Tales version. But in the version I was looking at it says:

?Ishtar!? he gasped. ?Thoth-Amon spoke truth. It is Xaltotun!?and he lives! Valerius! Tarascus! Amalric! Do you see?"


What?!? Thoth-Amon spoke the truth about what? IDing the corpse? The power of the Heart? The spell would work?

And who'd he speak it to? One of the conspirators? Some spy?

What REH was planning to do with the early foreshadowing of Thoth-Amon and his contact, somehow, with the conspirators, I dunno. Obviously REH changed his mind and got rid of it later, leaving Thoth-Amon strictly as unseen and inactive Boss Wizard in Stygia. Damn curious.

Incredible! An interesting piece! Maybe another piece of the puzzle behind REH's thought process for the character of Thoth-Amon, which appears to go beyond just a mere villain, but a true sorcerous power in the Hyborian Age. That would be 3 stories (2 Conan & Haunter) and a draft where REH used Thoth-Amon. Damn curious indeed! Thanks for that info, Paul. I'll third the suggestion to scan the map.

[Axerules]

Strom (hope you're doing well) it probably slipped from your mind, but Thoth was already mentioned in THotD: Thutothmes gathered the Stygians who were opposed to T-A in the chapter "In the Hall of the Dead". "Thoth-Amon is not the only Lord of the Black Ring. " etc...
He's also mentioned in The God in the Bowl and of course is in the first story, Phoenix, for once in person. That makes three Conan stories + Haunter.

[Strom]

Strom (hope you're doing well) it probably slipped from your mind, but Thoth was already mentioned in THotD: Thutothmes gathered the Stygians who were opposed to T-A in the chapter "In the Hall of the Dead". "Thoth-Amon is not the only Lord of the Black Ring. " etc...
He's also mentioned in The God in the Bowl and of course is in the first story, Phoenix, for once in person. That makes three Conan stories + Haunter.

I did forget - thanks Axerules! Hope you are doing well as well!

[deuce]

So, I'm in the midst of a big project involving original typescripts, including drafts, all sorts of stuff.

Hey Paul! I hope your "big project" has something to do with publishing more drafts. I, for one, would buy such an edition.

Today at lunch I come across an early draft of Hour of the Dragon. Near the beginning, as the dead wizard starts to come alive, one of the players says:

"Ishtar!" he gasped. "It is Xaltotun!?and he lives! Valerius! Tarascus! Amalric! Do you see?"

Or, at least that is what is in the Weird Tales version. But in the version I was looking at it says:

"Ishtar!" he gasped. "Thoth-Amon spoke truth. It is Xaltotun!?and he lives! Valerius! Tarascus! Amalric! Do you see?"


What?!? Thoth-Amon spoke the truth about what? IDing the corpse? The power of the Heart? The spell would work?

And who'd he speak it to? One of the conspirators? Some spy?

What REH was planning to do with the early foreshadowing of Thoth-Amon and his contact, somehow, with the conspirators, I dunno. Obviously REH changed his mind and got rid of it later, leaving Thoth-Amon strictly as unseen and inactive Boss Wizard in Stygia. Damn curious.

Thanks for bringing heretofore unknown material to the discussion. Perhaps REH originally planned to use Thoth in a role similar to Thutothmes'? I'd think that it would've been Orastes that he spoke to, but your "spy" idea is a damned good one. Maybe ol' Thoth was using Orastes as a "stalking horse" to ferret out the location of the Heart? Wacky possibilities.

Oh yeah, get on that map stuff! We cartographers are waiting.

[timeless]

Very interesting indeed.

I doubt that REH would've intrinsically used Thoth-Amon as LSdC later did, and Roy Thomas and gang. I don't think TA was ever intended to be Conan's signature arch nemesis, ala The Joker, Lex Luthor, Green Goblin, Moriarty, Darth Vader, etc. Although if WT readers responded thus, he likely would've milked it. Bob liked to make a buck. That's one of the things I love about him.

I wish he'd have had that opportunity. Prof. Tolkien was able to enjoy some of his success while he was alive. I wish Bob had.

Edited by timeless, 08 April 2008 - 03:34 AM.

[godzilladude]

Dudes, last time I checked, I wasn't in charge. So I ain't the one to ask about getting that wee map published.

Though, i fit happened to make it into the next REHF Newsletter, well, those kind of things happen . . .

[Kortoso]

I wonder how much of the Xaltotun character was inspired by Rasputin? Just a stray thought.

[Taranaich]

[quote name='deuce' post='85548' date='Apr 5 2008, 04:17 PM']Hey Taranaich! I agree. I hafta admit that I've always instinctively imagined a "hell-hound" or "demon" at the door.[/quote]

Me too.

[quote]From what I understand, medieval practicioners of alchemy (which involved astrology) often donned such robes. There's a possibility that even earlier astrologers did so. I recommend Aveni's Conversing with the Planets.[/quote]

Ah, didn't think of the alchemists/astrologers. I'll seek out Aveni.

[quote]I had the same thought. Really, I have to admit, Xaltotun/Acheron seems a li'l bit over-powered. With all the tools at their disposal, it's hard to see how ancient Stygia and Acheron didn't rule the entire world. However, that only becomes obvious on close study. It's never hindered my enjoyment of the yarn.[/quote]

Nor mine. I just presumed it was circumstances and problems not told in the tale and relegated it to the back of my mind for later.

[quote name='deuce' post='85550' date='Apr 5 2008, 04:42 PM']Hey Taranaich! I was wondering as well. Is it possible that "his allies" refers to Borderers or Brythunians?[/quote]

Well, Nemedia had to get those troops from somewhere... Maybe even Hyperborea, or Koth (in secret as usual!)

[quote]I was wondering that as well. Conan didn't "see" Bhunda Chand die. Almuric wasn't a "king". Perhaps we're looking at a totally unknown incident here.[/quote]

That's the most likely answer: since it comes on the heels of him recalling his youth in Cimmeria, there's probably yet another adventure there we're not privy to.

[quote name='godzilladude' post='85745' date='Apr 7 2008, 06:36 PM']“Ishtar!” he gasped. “Thoth-Amon spoke truth. It is Xaltotun!—and he lives! Valerius! Tarascus! Amalric! Do you see?"[/quote]

Whoa. That's a very intriguing discovery (as well as the maps). So could it have been a simple bit of colour a la "Incantations of Skelos", or was more meant by it? Fascinating...

[quote name='Kortoso' post='85817' date='Apr 8 2008, 05:07 PM']I wonder how much of the Xaltotun character was inspired by Rasputin? Just a stray thought.[/quote]

Well he seems as damned difficult to kill as the big Russian. Also, the name Rasputin translates roughly to "a place where two rivers meet". Valkia and Khorotas? Acheron and Sty x?

Edited by Taranaich, 08 April 2008 - 05:25 PM.

[Heavy Chevy]

Hi gang,

These reviews of the story are great !!!
It is always a pleasure reading this forum !!

It would have been wonderful to know Howards
future plans for Thoth Amon !!!

Also,
"The Black Hand of Set" has to be one of the
best "weapons" ever.
(I did like the Khitans staffs carved from The Living
Tree of Death, though !!)

The fight itself between the Priest's of Set and the Khitan
assassins should have had a whole chapter devoted to it,
instead of just a page or two.

Great story !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Later,
Mike C.

[Kortoso]

Does anyone have more remarks concerning this yarn?

I'm thinking of going to another story. Your suggestions are welcome!

[deuce]

Does anyone have more remarks concerning this yarn?

I'm thinking of going to another story. Your suggestions are welcome!

I was planning on posting new annotations today or tomorrow. Personally, I have no problem with another month's extension. We've gotten a LOT of posts/views on this yarn, and deservedly so. Still, I can't see why more "Conan fans" haven't posted on here. WHERE YOU AT!!!
This yarn has it ALL! Each and every Conan fan ought to have something to post, IMO.
As I said before, we don't have many REH Conan yarns to go.

[timeless]

My only criticism of it is the 'ghouls in the forest' section. This, to me, is what makes the tale seemed 'episodic.' I think Howard was stretching out and trying to do the novel but still using his short story skills. Kinda reminds me of what Chandler said of writing about Philip Marlowe, that every time he got stuck he just had a guy come through the door with a gun in his hand.

One of the best scenes in the yarn is when the mercenary confronts Conan at the well after his escape.

[deuce]

My only criticism of it is the 'ghouls in the forest' section. This, to me, is what makes the tale seemed 'episodic.' I think Howard was stretching out and trying to do the novel but still using his short story skills. Kinda reminds me of what Chandler said of writing about Philip Marlowe, that every time he got stuck he just had a guy come through the door with a gun in his hand.

I agree that the "ghouls" episode could've been excised with little harm to the narrative. However, for me (as a "pseudo-historian" of the Hyborian Age), it makes up for it somewhat by revealing the existence of a "lost city" AND the "origin of the ghouls" (something neither HPL nor CAS got around to). Perhaps they felt Bob had it covered.

One of the best scenes in the yarn is when the mercenary confronts Conan at the well after his escape.

I agree, though there are SO MANY great scenes in "Dragon", IMO, that it's hard to pick.

[timeless]

The dead Stygian leading Our Man to the exit from the pyramid REALLY sticks out in my mind from my first reading. The sands and the stars above and Conan sprinting outta there like a bat outta hell with the Heart in his possession after a long search.

It's a 'Alright, mofos, now we're playing the game MY way' moment. 'I have dead enemies behind me and live ones ahead, and I can't wait to lock horns.' Very Conanesque. Thrilling.

[Taranaich]

In anticipation of deuce's annotations, I'll give my thoughts on chapter 3.

First of all, one of my favourite things about Howard is how all his battles are unique. The Battle of Shamar (Scarlet Citadel) was an interrupted siege (and what a siege), the battle of Shamla Pass (Black Colossus) a desperate desert clash, the Battle of Khauran a mix of siege and horse archery. The Battle of the Valkia is a rough river-battle, the hosts up to their waists in water, as many men drowning as dying from arrow or spear or sword. Every battle Howard wrote of (in Conan at least) has a memorable detail, so that even battles between the same armies are never the same. What's more is that efficient, logical strategy is seen: both hosts use sound formations, feints and attempts at flanking - no ludicrous tactical faux pas, or boring "two lines charge and slog" action here.

One thing that I can't decide is a criticism or not is Howard's choice to have the squire describe the battle to Conan instead of first hand. We've seen Howard ably describe big battles before, so it's not due to reluctance, and indeed the squire does a good job. Obviously, Howard wanted us to put ourselves in Conan shoes, to imagine him eating his heart out to get to the fight and lead his men himself. Ultimately I think Howard made a fantastic move in having the battle described to us and Conan: the mere fact that we want to see the battle-first hand aids that sense of frustration, and makes Conan's feelings all the more affecting for the reader.

The "cliffs reeling" is our first first-hand experience of Xaltotun's magic, and more parallels to Black Colossus can be made: a foolish cavalry charge when the enemy is believed to be routed/confused, only to KABLAMMO - get devastated by incredibly destructive magic. Combined with overwhelming enemy forces the army of Khoraja was ready to route at such a sight, but they held fast and won the day: at the sight of similar magic even after they were seemingly winning, the Aquilonians did route. The one factor that changed both outcomes was, of course, Conan. If Conan wasn't in command at Shamla, Khoraja's army could have routed and fled. Likewise, if Conan weren't incapacitated, The Hour of the Dragon might have been over before it started - though I get the impression even Conan couldn't have countered whatever hypnotic suggestion claimed poor Valannus.

The confrontation between Conan and Tarascus/Xaltotun is also similar to his encounter with Strabonus/Tsoth-Lanti in Scarlet Citadel - too similar, some would say. However, I think there are enough differences between the two occassions that one could chalk it up to just the normal sort of thing that happens when conspirators work with wizards.

My only criticism of it is the 'ghouls in the forest' section. This, to me, is what makes the tale seemed 'episodic.' I think Howard was stretching out and trying to do the novel but still using his short story skills. Kinda reminds me of what Chandler said of writing about Philip Marlowe, that every time he got stuck he just had a guy come through the door with a gun in his hand.

One of the best scenes in the yarn is when the mercenary confronts Conan at the well after his escape.

I think the ghoul section could have been made to mesh better if more references were sprinkled throughout the story: as it is, it just kind of happens out of nowhere. If references to ghouls, or even the "unknown horrors lurking in Argos" were mentioned now and again with mounting frequency as Howard approached Messantia, it would seem to be more part of the narrative and relevant to the action. Say, Zelata mentioned "creatures of the dark stirring" in the cave, then Hadrathus talked about the dark things in the Zingaran forest, then some of the bandits at Valbroso's fort discuss whole troops of men disappearing on the border. Maybe have the ghouls somehow linked with Xaltotun's machinations in some way, either as rivals or as servitors, and Conan's interruption affect later story developments.

[deuce]

Chapter III: The Cliffs Reel

the Aquilonian host: There were "long serried lines of pikemen and horsemen in gleaming steel". "Knights in gold-chased armor, pikemen in mail coats and basinets, archers in their leather jerkins, with their longbows in their left hand"; all stood ready for battle. The knights rode "armored horses" and carried lances with "fluttering pennons" beneath "silken banners".
Their "customary formation" was this: "the strongest part was the center, composed entirely of heavily armed knights; the wings were made up of smaller bodies of horsemen, mounted men-at-arms, mostly, supported by pikemen and archers." (p.98-99)
I couldn't conceive of a more "medieval" configuration for an army. The basic template is present in Lamb's Iron Men and Saints.
Bossonians: provided the archery corps for the Aquilonian host. They were "strongly built men of medium stature, in leather jackets and iron head-pieces." (p.99) Hmmm... just like the longbowmen of Edward the Black Prince.

the Nemedian army: employed a "similar formation" to that of the Aquilonians. (p.99)

"Hark to them shout!": Thus does Conan's squire describe the clamor of battle. (p.99) Another example of REH's use of "archaisms".

the battle: The Nemedian knights "crash through the willows", the "clothyard shafts" of the Bossonians cutting them down. The Nemedians drown in the Valkia, "dragged under by their armor, and trampled by their frantic horses." The "Nemedian arbalesters are sorely harried", punished by the Bossonian archers. (p.99)
This sounds like a fairly accurate paraphrase of the Battle of Agincourt, so far (with echoes of Crecy and Poitiers).

Conan: He told his squire, "I am a barbarian and the son of a blacksmith." His sleeveless shirt revealed "his great hairy chest". (p.102)
Here our hairy-chested barbarian (possibly) lets slip some familial data. As Taranaich once pointed out, Conan didn't say he was a son of a blacksmith, but THE son of a blacksmith. That subtle difference may imply that Conan was an only child (like his creator).

Tarascus: He was "famed in all the western nations as a swordsman." (p.102) His squire dissuaded him from facing the Cimmerian in single combat. He offered to "summon archers to shoot this barbarian as we shoot lions." (p.104) Apparently, lions were still extant in Nemedia.

Xaltotun: The appearance of the black horses which drew his chariot was "vaguely unnatural". "He was a tall man, superbly built, clad in a long unadorned silk robe. He wore a Shemitish head-dress, and its lower folds hid his features, except for the dark, magnetic eyes." His "glistening sphere" produced "a sharp explosion, a flare of white, blinding flame" and unconsciousness in anyone near the explosion. (p.104) Through illusion/mesmerism, Xaltotun killed a Nemedian guardsman, making him believe that his belt had turned into a viper. (p.105)
To me, this part has a real "Fu Manchu" feel to it. REH was an avid reader of Rohmer's Fu Manchu novels and listed him as being one of his "favorite authors". In a later chapter, we'll look at how REH seems to have "nicked" a certain object directly from Rohmer.

The end of Chapter III