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REH and His Views Concerning the Irish (and Celts in General)


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#121 deuce

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 04:14 AM

I talked about alleged scythian ancestry claimed by the conquering Franks, who then linked the scythians to a lost tribe of Israel.
The lost tribe story made them overcome their inferiority syndrome, since now they were not only freshly baptized but had links to the most sacred characters of their new faith. They weren't just any kind of common "canaanites" or goyim any more.
Culturally, being an alleged descendant of the scythians made the Franks feel less isolated and barbarian, since they cold now fully identify themselves with the mythical scythians of greek and roman legends, those same men who may have inspired the legends of centaurs and such.


Exactly HOW did being "Scythians" make the Franks/Saxons/Gaels "non-goyim"? How does being descended from "Centaurs" make an ethnos one of the "chosen people of Yahweh"? You've yet to answer the question.

Were there Roman legends about the Scythians?

Snorri Sturluson placed the origins of the "Nordics" in "Scythia". He was no monk. The recurrence of "Scythian" origins is interesting, IMO.

Edited by deuce, 27 October 2010 - 04:15 AM.

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#122 deuce

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 05:10 AM

Deuce that's the first time I hear of "chrstian chroniclers" being praised so much as honest crhoniclers who wrote scrupulously down pagan myths ! the last examples you gave sememd the less christianized, but you're pointing out exceptions.


Obviously, you're unfamiliar with the early history of the Celtic Church. Nowhere in Western Christendom was such an effort made to preserve native ("pre-Christian") traditions. All of the manuscripts which have come down to us (despite the destructions of the Norse, Normans and English) serve as testimony to that. Seek something similar in England, France or Germany. Better yet, all of Christendom. Even better, in Dar-al-Islam.

It is EXTREMELY rare to have such texts in christian literature and you know it,


Exactly. Such can't be found in England, France or Spain. That makes the cornucopia of Irish native literature as recorded by Irish clergy so notable. It also makes your attacks the more notable, since you don't single out Scandinavian, Slavic, German or other European examples.

Ireland had exceptions as these because of it's isolation, and who knows the true intentions of these monks (not the ones who wrote the book of invasions)


Did it never occur to you that the Irish were simply more tolerant of previous beliefs? Not one death is associated with the conversion of Ireland. The fili were protected by Patrick and defended (successfully) by Crimmthan/Columcille/Columba at a later date. "Isolation" had nothing to do with it. History is replete with examples of "isolation" leading to MORE repression.

What does this Cuchulainn bronze statue have to do with early medieval times and monks??
This is modern and I doubt such symbols would have been permitted in that particular epoch.
so your modern bronze statue is valid but my modern tv quote isn't?


You were talking about "buried" and "erased" pre-Christian myths. Obviously, the myth of CuChulainn survived.

Honestly the Book of Invasions and the Ulster cycle have -nothing- in common for me. Different style, different approach, one is scholastic, the other one seems to be of relatively genuinely pre-christian source in it's essence, but STILL we have no proof the monks didn't play "classical greek author" and constructed something from what they've heard,giving their own version that's all I wanted to say.



Splitting hairs. The Lebor Gabala Erenn is replete with "Irishisms". Any interpolations by monks don't change that. Has anyone offered the Lebor to a rabbi for review? I doubt he'd find many congruences, especially in the actions of Celtic women. I doubt one of your beloved "Greco-Roman" scholars would find much to agree with, either. BOTH would be approaching the material from a "Mediterranean" viewpoint, one alien to the Gaelic/Celtic attitude of the early Irish chroniclers.

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#123 Teutates

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Posted 27 October 2010 - 03:13 PM

Obviously, you're unfamiliar with the early history of the Celtic Church. Nowhere in Western Christendom was such an effort made to preserve native ("pre-Christian") traditions.


Did it never occur to you that the Irish were simply more tolerant of previous beliefs? Not one death is associated with the conversion of Ireland.


The same thing is said of the conversion of bretons in France. I have two ideas for this: one, that during the period when arianism was taught, there may have been many other variants , some missionaries deciding to adopt an extremely syncretist attitude (a heresy for the Vatican, but tolerated apparently in the first steps when converting pagans in SOME places).
It may be that some monks, due to Ireland being an isle and perhaps not an immediate priority for "hard" conversion -due to the apparent lack of hostility of the natives towards the missionaries- , accepted to make a few diplomatic moves to show they weren't hostile neither towards the population, thus writing down some oral traditions in their way. The priority for the Vatican was rather England , France etc. but that's only one way to see it.

OR
Two : I always wondered WHY the book of invasions sounded so boringly biblical and why the Ulster cycle legends seemed so authentic (I only said SEEMED) .
What happened to all the druids in Ireland? did they just vanish into thin air? Convert to christianism in a heartbeat?
I highly doubt so, but still it's possible that seeing their pagan culture threatened, a little group of druids may effectively pretended to adopt the faith just to write down and preserve the oral tradition (although writing down beliefs is still thought nowadays to have been some kind of taboo for all celts, oral transmission of myths being imperative). Sure it's speculation, but why can't we speculate and propose ideas? It wouldn't be the first time we hear about such stratagems in history anyways.

In one word, what happened to the druids in Ireland?

Something else that is extremely odd: it is common to cite the celtic church's "tolerance" today, but why then are ALL accounts concerning the missionary Phadraigh relating events about "evil druids and magicians" "people believing in idolatrous demons" "Phadraigh publicly adressing to druids to show them their 'wrongs' "
You say Phadraigh permitted the bards to sing: tradition, there's no proof he did.
On the contrary, he assimilated pagan gods with demons.
I wonder how the natives really reacted to this.
Sometimes people just accept to forget the first murderous acts and cover it up , you know the Stockholm syndrom.
All this legend built around "St Patrick" is very very odd and an prime example of contradiction.
It isn't everyday you'll see someone coming along mocking your gods and pretending to make some "miracles" such as cutting down a sacred tree (an EASY SHOT) to prove the pagans "wrong" , still these strange stories seem to make us believe the natives just stood there in prostration and disbelief, embracing immediately the new faith after having seen such ridiculous gimmicks... I'm not buying that.

Reality is often far from these legends, but it's difficult to get ahold of how things really happened, since the irish whether protestant or catholic are generally strongly christian and aren't really interested to know , christianism being thought of as national identity.
The franks converted the population by force: we know this only because of the issue with the Saxons and some difficulties in France, this is due to chroniclers who oddly wrote down these events, not knowing it would show the dark face of forced conversion centuries later. Unfortunately very few franchmen are aware of this and honestly think that France was converted slowly and peacefully.

You were talking about "buried" and "erased" pre-Christian myths. Obviously, the myth of CuChulainn survived.

I don't see what this has to do. the myth of the Minotaur and Minos survived in Crete and Zeus and the olympians in Greece for example, still the rigorous orthodox church did everything to try to bury it up, and did not succeed I must say, fortunately!!
Some things will survive for ever .

I doubt one of your beloved "Greco-Roman" scholars would find much to agree with, either.


??????
Beloved greco roman scholars?? Are you judging by the two or three authors I cited many posts ago?
You do this each time I insist on a particular point, you pretend I completely erased the other influences in my system of thought!
Suffices to re-read my old posts without omitting to quote the whole paragraph and you'll see I mentioned historical events and tradition concerning the gaels which have been completely deformed and restructured in a christian correct way, thus introducing new anachronisms and biblical patriarch models as well. I'm far from being the only one who thinks like this, Deuce.
Plus, when I cited the monks playing perhaps "greek classical authors" when compiling stories in a way we're not really sure if they left them untouched (much like classical authors ), it was merely an example. Classical authors aren't the only ones to do this, around the world we have tradition rewritten with heavy modifications and modernizd, adapted to new systems of thought.
It has nothing to do with a "mediterranean" point of view.


Well you have your opinion and I have mine, I think we both exposed our point.

Edited by krommtaar, 27 October 2010 - 03:18 PM.


#124 deuce

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 12:31 AM

Well you have your opinion and I have mine, I think we both exposed our point.



Yeah. This discussion has strayed FAR beyond anything to do with Robert E. Howard's views on the Irish, Gaelic mythology or the Celtic Church. In fact, your views are in direct contradiction to his.

Feel free to edify the membership on this thread:

http://www.conan.com...=1

:)

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#125 deuce

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 12:40 AM

More from REH's letter to Harold Preece (January 4, 1930)...

"But I didn't start out to talk about myself. The Insular branch [of the Celts] includes, as you know, the Gaelic and Cymri, which include, Gaelic: Irish, Highland Scottish, a Lowland dialect called more or less incorrectly, Erse, Manx, I believe, which is greatly corrupted by Norsk, and Cymri: Welsh, Breton, Cornish, now extinct, and possibly the original language of Ireland, though it is likely the first Celtic conquerors were Belgic or Gallic rather than Cymric. At any rate, their language was absorbed, except possibly in County Antrim, by the flood of Gaelic invasion. It is possible, though no historian to the best of my belief has ever put forth such a theory, that the Belgic or Gallic natives of Ireland fled over into Scotland and became known as Picts. Of speech alien to both Gael and Cymri, their hands would be against all men.

Understand, I do not put this forth as a belief of my own. I simply say it is possible. I believe the Picts to have been an aboriginal peoples who antedated both Gael and Cymri. No doubt they were deeply mixed with Celtic blood later. The difference between Gaelic and Cymric languages is very marked and the two have so little in common that it is hard to believe that they came from the same root stock. Yet a close study of the speech shows this to be the case. There are two branches, as I have said, call the "c" branch and the "p" branch. So called because of their treatment of the old Aryan "qu". Celtic comes from the same stock of the Italic, Grecian and Germanic languages and I think, though I may be wrong, that it most closely approaches the Italianate in its treatment. That it is closely akin to the ancient Greek is shown by the words, hippos, hikkos, meaning horse. I haven't time to go into that now, however. But the change from one form to the other is characteristic.

Let us return to the old original Aryan. Suppose, for the working out of the theory, that Maqu is son. The qu ending being changed to "p" in Cymric and Gallic, "son" becomes Map --- which is the old Welsh term for the noun; now call Ap or App. "Son" in Gaelic becomes Macc, or Mac, as the "qu" termination is changed to "c" with the "k" sound. There is no "k" in the Gaelic language nor is there the soft sound of "c"; it is always pronounced "k". Nor is there a "v", though the "v" sound is common. For instance, lamh, meaning hand, pronounced lauv. I may be wrong, as I am certainly no authority on Gaelic and know very little about it, but I don;t believe there is a "w', it being usually denoted by "mh". There is certainly no "j", at least in vocalization. "J" is given and spelled the "sh" sound, thus "John" becomes, "Shon", "Shone", "Shane", or "Shawn", the last usually being applied to a man of the poorer class. "James" becomes "Shamus", "Seamas", "Shamas", or "Sheemas". The proper Gaelic spelling of John and James is "Seon" and "Seamas", the "e" denoting the sound of "sh", as "Joseph" is spelled "Seosamh," and pronounced, I suppose, "Shosauv"."

~ Robert E. Howard ~

As shown above, Robert E. Howard had a pretty good grasp of the history and basics of the Insular Celtic tongues. Considering how hard books on such an esoteric subject would be to find in Central Texas, he obviously put some effort into his studies. He had more to say about Gaelic in later letters.

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#126 Kortoso

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 05:46 PM

...And he seems to emphasize that he doesn't claim to know everything; he would probably be open to reviewing new information. :)

#127 deuce

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 07:23 PM

...And he seems to emphasize that he doesn't claim to know everything; he would probably be open to reviewing new information. :)



Of course. Why not? :unsure:

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#128 Kortoso

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Posted 28 October 2010 - 08:29 PM

It seems that we sometimes assume that his views were monolithic, or that his Hyborian Age reflected his true ideas about history and the he was some sort of "nut case".

#129 deuce

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 01:14 AM

I probably should've typed this when I did the last excerpt, but I ran out of time...

"I think that by close application I could learn Gaelic but I despair of Welsh for it is undoubtedly the most bewildering Western language in the world. About all I know of it is that the frequent form of "dd" is usually pronounced "th", and that the "ll" sound is most musical, like smoothly flowing streams. I may have made a number of errors in what I've been saying about Gaelic, but I think in the main I am right. Gaelic has a number of dialects, on both sides of the channel which differ in many ways."

~ Robert E. Howard ~ (January 4, 1930)

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#130 deuce

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 09:30 PM

Yet more from REH's letter to Harold Preece...

"Well, the Celt is a fast fading symbol of the past. The race has fought oblivion savagely but it has been and is a losing fight. What arms and war could not do, intermarrying and the growth of the English language is doing. It is destiny. But it has been a fight of which to be proud. For centuries the Celt was the dominant figure in Europe and even Rome bowed to him. Forced to the western fringes of the world, he held his own for a thousand years and more. The story of the Saxon conquest of Britain is a stirring one. The Cymri were softened and weakened by by centuries of peace and idle prosperity. When the tide burst they were harried by their own kin in the north and west. Yet it took the combined powers of the Anglos, Saxons and Jut, over a hundred and fifty years to gain control of the eastern half of what we call England. Thrust into the mountains of Wales, those Romanized Britons waged a back-to-the-wall war which for ferocity and reckless valor has never been surpassed. Early English historians denounced the Welsh as barbarians and spoke scathingly of their culture and civilization. Well, when a people are fighting day and night for their lives, they have scant time to waste in the pursuit of higher knowledge."

~ Robert E. Howard ~

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#131 deuce

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Posted 08 November 2010 - 09:35 AM

Still more from a letter to Harold Preece, January 4, 1930...

"When the Britons staggered westward, broken and bleeding, they carried with them the remnants of a civilization which has in some ways never been surpassed. The music and art of old Greeece, flowing through the veins of Rome, crystallized in the poetic people of Britain. But Ebbracum fell, and Lundunium, and Aquae Sulis, and Corinium, and the ox-eyed red bearded Saxon replaced even the musical Roman-British names with his York, London, Bath, Winchester. Ah well -- pinned in the western mountains, harried on one side by the Saxons and on the other by the Irish pirates, the Welsh forgot their civilization. Culture languishes and dies in the mountains to the everlasting clamor of the war trumpet. From polished, educated citizens of the Roman empire, the Welshman became shock headed, iron handed savages, who knew nothing of the arts of their immediate forbears, but in whose veins coursed hotly the fighting blood of their barbaric Celtic ancestors.

What a nation gains in one way, it loses in another. Had the Saxons, leaping from their dragon-beaked galleys, found the same yellow haired giants that Caesar found, rushing down in their iron chariots, there had been no conquest, only windrows of slaughtered pirates, and the speech of Britain today would have been not English, but Cymric. As it was, by the time the weakened Britons had regained all their old savagery, they had been reduced to a remnant and their personal stature seemed to have permanently diminished."

~ Robert E. Howard ~

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#132 deuce

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Posted 20 March 2011 - 03:53 AM

A poem from Robert E. Howard...

Retribution

The moon above the Kerry hills
had risen scare a span
When we went forth from Knocknaroe
to card a Saxon man.
We stretched him naked on the ditch―
God save this soul of mine!
The howls of him as hard we dragged
the cats along his spine.

A great, full-bodied man he was,
that beat poor Tom O'Rourke,
The hardest English landlord now,
from Donegal to Cork .
'Twas, "Damn you eyes! Pay rent or starve!
Get out with all your brats!"
But, faith, the howling of him now
was louder than the cats.

It's maybe he remembered then,
the swelling Saxon toad,
How he evicted Biddy Flynn
to die beside the road.
I hope that he remembered, too,
the while the tomcats clung,
My cousin Mike O'Flaherly
his testimony hung.

He cursed the king in agony
and damned the penal laws―
Oh, quite a different man he was
beneath those ripping claws

~ Robert E. Howard ~

Even without other evidence from his letters, there seems little doubt as to where REH stood in regards to the native Irish and the Sassenach.

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#133 deuce

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 10:42 AM

It was the official feast day of St. Brendan on the 16th. I suppose a case could be made otherwise, but Brendan (or "Brandon", as REH always called him) would seem to be Robert E. Howard's favorite saint. Howard mentioned him in his letters, his poetry and his prose. Always with admiration. Here's a link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan

As it notes in the article, the original feast day commemorating the voyage (in the Celtic Church) was March 22nd.

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#134 deuce

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 11:11 AM

Robert E. Howard's thoughts on St. Patrick's Day and the Irish:

http://www.thecimmer...wore-the-green/

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#135 deuce

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 12:10 AM

When writing Spears of Clontarf/The Grey God Passes, Howard relied heavily on the works of PW Joyce. Check it out here:


http://www.rehupa.co...elf_j.htm#Joyce, P[atrick] W[eston] (1827-1914). A Short History of Gaelic Ireland

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#136 deuce

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:50 AM

It's the eve of Samhain. The end of summer and New Year's Eve amongst the ancient Celts. The night and day when the past, present and future commingled and all the dead were remembered (the US "Memorial Day" is really superfluous, in that regard).

The other day, I received a copy of Glenn Lord's The Last Celt from a friend. It'd been 30+yrs since I'd read it. I'd forgotten that the title was taken from an essay penned by Harold Preece. Preece's name should be familiar to those who've read this thread. Most of the "Celtophile" letters from Robert E. Howard posted so far were addressed to Preece. Those letters make it obvious that REH considered Preece to be his one friend with whom he could share his enthusiasm for Celtic history.

So, in the spirit of remembering the dead, I'll be posting excerpts from Preece's "The Last Celt" essay from now until All Soul's Day. Preece hung out with REH for about three years, which is about as much time as Howard spent with Novalyne Price. Preece caroused many a night around a campfire with REH, listening and debating various topics. Foremost, between the two, was the history of the Celtic peoples. From here on out, I'll let Mr. Preece speak for himself.

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#137 deuce

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 06:39 AM

From Preece's "The Last Celt":

"In our very blood ran those epics of the lariat as well as the Alamo which so shadows the mass psyche of Texans. But during those years when I knew Bob Howard, our minds were fixed on the hills of Wicklow we had never seen, rather than those peaks of Callahan County we both knew. (...)

"Through what mounting interflow of connections did I get to know Robert Ervin Howard? Or Raibeard Eiarbhin hui Howard as he often Gaelicized his name when the Celtic spell fell over him. These thirty years since his untimely death, I have searched for the answers. And even more for meanings. (...)

"(REH) had other Celtic individualities, too; individualities transmitted, perhaps, through those genetic inheritances that Jung talks about, shaped and developed both as escape and reality in that ordinary little town of Cross Plains where he lived.

"He was Raftery of Ireland or Llywarch Hen of Wales or any of the Celtic bards whose verse and song survive today in anthologies only read by university people. He was John L. Sullivan and Jack Dempsey and the other Irish-American boxers whom he would have liked to emulate, for he was no puling aesthete of a literary man; but I doubt he could have been an Irish cop. Supremely, perhaps, "within spirit which lies outside time," he was Conan, from whom he believed himself literally descended. and whom certain scholars of pre-history say actually exisited. (...)

"No issue of The Junto was complete without some declaration of war on the Sassenach by Robert Ervin Howard. (...)

"Bob's interest in Celtica magnified and gave personal meaning to all those derived Scottish, Irish and Welsh traditions which my family has retained during these aeons in America. But for all my earlier reading in Celtica, he was the teacher and I the most uncritical pupil --- that swashbuckling boy of twenty-one who was Robert Howard and that still rather priggish boy who was myself."


Above we have Harold Preece's impression of Robert E. Howard. He had plenty more to say.

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#138 deuce

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 06:49 AM

More from Preece's "The Last Celt":


"Far away and long ago it all seems now. As far away as Texas whose rhythms yet run in my veins. As long ago as those legends recounted by Bob when he, Truett Vinson, Clyde Smith, and myself gathered for night talk sessions in the woods around Pecan Bayou, near Brownwood. All four of us required, during those years of impatient early youth, some feeling of belonging to something that might be beyond those gargantuan, often smothering, dimensions of our native state. For Bob and myself, that extra entity became Ireland, which we believed to have been the apex of a great Celtic domain once extending across most of Europe.

However, some months passed after our initial meeting before that affinity became a conscious one between us two. And that second phase of our relationship would begin in Brownwood where Truett and Clyde lived.

Cross Plains, where Bob lived, was not many miles away. By now, I had also come to know Clyde through still another session in Austin. The time was Christmas week of 1928; the locale, a wooded ravine in Brown County. The central personage of that reunion was also Bob Howard, metamorphozing through a haze of booze and talk into Conan.

Bob was in extra fine fettle on that mild night in an Ireland created ephemerally from Texas. His tongue had been whetted by the bottle of liquor he'd been able to pick up from a drugstore as a "medical prescription" during that hypocritical era of the Eighteenth Amendment. I can remember his bawling at the top of his voice a verse from an old Irish revolutionary song, "The Rising of the Moon," but which he rendered to the tune of that sentimental popular ballad, "Where the River Shannon Flows":

"Oh tell me, Sean O'Farrell,

Where the gathering is to be,

At the old house by the river,
Sure 'tis known to you and me."


(...) As it was, Bob's friendship became my baptism -- more accurately -- my confirmation in Celtica.

For possibly -- as Jung intimates -- there may be more to ancestry than the incestuous chauvanisms of ridiculous societies or the pestering of librarians by pinch-faced little old ladies reconstructing family trees. I can justify that ancestral surge which came from knowing Bob Howard because it didn't turn me into an ancestor-worshipper or ethnic xenophobe.

(...) During the same period, if in different sections of Texas,Bob Howard and I had evidently developed comparable Celtic mystiques. In our conversations, oral or written, I could remember how I'd dug into my high school library for Irish poetry in the published collections or the dusty files of the Literary Digest. Invariably my redheaded, florid-faced father pinned on the shamrock each St. Patrick's Day, and expected all of his children to wear some corresponding greenery.

During my childhood, I had been a passionate supporter of the last, and successful, Irish independence struggle, initiated by the poet-president, Padraic Pearse, that bloody Easter Week of 1916, carried to its finale, several years later, by the Brooklyn-born mathematician, Eamon de Valera, still surviving as I write this. (...)

Bob Howard was the first person with whom I could discuss intelligibly my avid interest in Celtica. I can feel, without self-flattery, that I may have served a comparable purpose for him, with each having been the specialized audience of the other."

I'll conclude my transcripts from Mr. Preece later today. :)

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#139 deuce

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:40 AM

Final excerpts from Preece's essay, "The Last Celt"...

"Through Bob I first learned of that Celtic complex which once stretched from Western Europe into Central Asia Minor. "The Celtic Empire" it is called be some scholars, though at no time constituting a political unit. It included Gaul, that is now France, the two Galicias of Poland and Spain, Helvetia, which became Switzerland; Britain, named for that legendary figure, Prydhon; Galatia, its Asian extremity renamed Ankara by occupying Turks; and Ireland, its most celebrated component, growing gods like stud horses and poets thick as shamrocks.
(...)

Then in some downright uncanny sense I always felt the presence of Bob Howard. I could remember something he once wrote in a letter: that, to the Celt, the fall of a leaf can more significance than the fall of an empire. Perhaps because the leaves continue and the empires die.

All this and all that Bob was, I can appreciate intellectually and artistically, within some meaning found and others formless. He was my Ossian and my Conan, if not quite my Padraic Pearse. Above the baying hounds of time I can remember almost verbatim our conversations and correspondence. Recall them today as clearly as I do Yeats' Irish cantos, Synges' "Riders to the Sea," or Bob's own fiery denunciation of the Sassenach:

"Gods, hurl the haughty deathwards and shake the iron thrones
That my kin shall ride in Devon above the Saxon's bones."
(...)

He should have gone out to the skirl of pipes and the glitter of shields, rather than in that mediocre manner of the suicidal shot he fired into his magnificent brain. Over him should have been intoned the Druidic prayers for the slain of the Fianna. Then what was left of him should have been placed on a birlinn bound for Hy-Brasil. (...)

Yet I feel that I remember Bob supremely for one of those intimately mutual personal expressions sometimes arising spontaneously between writers.

We were walking and talking across a grassy Brown County plain on a moonlit night during that last period of knowing each other well. I can recall his answer better than the words that prompted it.

But I think I remarked that this was a night when our Old Folk might have gathered for some festivity or some battle, and how I felt permeated by some mood emanating from some far-off age of theirs.

Bob stopped still. I knew by his face that he was sharing the mood.

"Yes," he said solemnly, "the last Celt should have died a thousand years ago."

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#140 Michael Miko

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 11:36 AM

Thanks for sharing these excerpts from Preece's "Last Celt", Deuce. Awesome stuff.
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