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Sons of Aryas (REH's "Aryans")


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#21 Duar2009

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 04:50 PM

I've been following some of the discussions about Indo-Europeans, (formerly known as Aryans) in this thread, and it reminded me that I've often wondered about what REH meant by "the sons of Aryas". I've assumed this refers to a racial deity or mythological race-founder, but does anyone have any more precise ideas about this?



I think REH was referring to the Indo-Europeans. as Kortoso said he probably changed the spelling because he was writing it into a fantasy story. Most of The Weird tales' readers were not as versed in ancient history as REH who had a very impressive knowledge of such subjects and used to his advantage when it came to typing up an imaginary story. "The Grey God passes" is a great example of his historical fantasy yarns. He had a cinematic touch to his tales that should have been made into movies. If REH would have been a script writer in Hollywood he could have been one of the greatest.

#22 Kortoso

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Posted 13 July 2009 - 05:17 PM

If Robert E. Howard thought that the Picts might have been the fathers of Indo-European culture, we would have heard about it. ;)

#23 Pictish Scout

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 12:54 AM

If Robert E. Howard thought that the Picts might have been the fathers of Indo-European culture, we would have heard about it. ;)



In my "wild theory" Robert Howard wasn't talking about Indo-Europeans when he mentioned "Aryas", he was talking about Picts, and Aryas is a rename of the character Arus the nemedian priest of "The Hyborean Age". It is a sort of "What if Aryas IS Arus the Nemedian"? And the Sons of Arus are the Picts. Do you think there is any possibility ? Do you think there is some logic in it at all?

#24 deuce

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 02:48 AM

I've been following some of the discussions about Indo-Europeans, (formerly known as Aryans) in this thread, and it reminded me that I've often wondered about what REH meant by "the sons of Aryas". I've assumed this refers to a racial deity or mythological race-founder, but does anyone have any more precise ideas about this?



I think REH was referring to the Indo-Europeans. as Kortoso said he probably changed the spelling because he was writing it into a fantasy story.


Hey Duar! That theory is certainly likely (regarding the "spelling change"), but I'd still like to hear Louinet's verdict on whether it was a typo for "sons of Aryan". REH used that phrase in TWO other yarns, including one set in the immediate "post-Hyborian Age" AND written during the same year as "Phoenix".

Most of The Weird tales' readers were not as versed in ancient history as REH who had a very impressive knowledge of such subjects and used to his advantage when it came to typing up an imaginary story. "The Grey God passes" is a great example of his historical fantasy yarns. He had a cinematic touch to his tales that should have been made into movies. If REH would have been a script writer in Hollywood he could have been one of the greatest.


I certainly agree that "Grey God" would make a GREAT movie. B)

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#25 deuce

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 02:49 AM

If Robert E. Howard thought that the Picts might have been the fathers of Indo-European culture, we would have heard about it. ;)


I agree, Kortoso. B)

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#26 Fernando

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 03:36 AM

REH used that phrase in TWO other yarns, including one set in the immediate "post-Hyborian Age" AND written during the same year as "Phoenix".


You're doubtless speaking about a JA's yarn, but I can't recall what of them... :unsure:

#27 deuce

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 04:08 AM

REH used that phrase in TWO other yarns, including one set in the immediate "post-Hyborian Age" AND written during the same year as "Phoenix".


You're doubtless speaking about a JA's yarn, but I can't recall what of them... :unsure:


Hey Fernando! The Valley of the Worm. It's in my annotations.

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#28 Axerules

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 04:25 AM

Indeed, TVotW. The other story where REH penned the words "Sons of Aryan" was The Children of the Night.

REH used that phrase in TWO other yarns, including one set in the immediate "post-Hyborian Age" AND written during the same year as "Phoenix".


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#29 deuce

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 04:34 AM

Indeed, TVotW. The other story where REH penned the words "Sons of Aryan" was The Children of the Night.

REH used that phrase in TWO other yarns, including one set in the immediate "post-Hyborian Age" AND written during the same year as "Phoenix".


EXACTLY, Axe. B) BOTH yarns made it perfectly clear that REH was NOT referring to "Picts".

Also, the protagonist of "CotN" is called (in his former life), "Aryara". This is an obvious modification of "Aryan", so the idea that REH might modify "Aryan" again (even less radically) to "Aryas" is entirely within the realm of probability.

Y'all might want to check out this blog: http://www.thecimmerian.com/?p=3360

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#30 Fernando

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 04:34 AM

Thank you very much, Deuce and Axerules! :D

#31 deuce

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 06:20 AM

Arianism was a doctrine of early Christianity derived from the teachings of Arius, a deacon in 3rd c. Alexandria.
Whether Howard was referring to this, or to the Aryan peoples I don't know. Given the spelling, and Howard's predilection for ancient peoples, I'm tending toward the latter. Still, it might be interesting to consider the passage in question as a symbolic movement from one age, the ancient age, to the next.


Not the same, just a homophone.


NOT even necessarily a "homophone". To Latin speakers of the time, the name of "Arius" might well have been pronounced "AHR-yoos". Meanwhile, in modern Iran and Afghanistan, "Aryas" (VERY close to the Iranian "Aryash") would be pronounced "AHR-yahs". When in doubt, modern Americans treat just about any vowel as "uh". :rolleyes:

REH was linguistically sophisticated for his time and place. He had a decent acquaintance with Spanish and Irish Gaelic. He knew how to pronounce words in a "European" fashion, where "a" is "ah" and "u" is "oo".

Not saying that he DID pronounce "Aryas" differently than "Arius", just that there is some uncertainty.

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#32 PainBrush

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Posted 21 July 2009 - 12:38 PM

Wow , took me long enough but I finally found this topic , I knew I recalled a 'language' topic somewhere . Anyhow , apropo of nothing recent on these boards - here's an interesting bit I found recently ( took me long enough to scan/tweak/shrink to a decent file-size for posting - hope it's visible on y'ens computer innertubes ! ;) ) Being a bit of a language buff myself ( not that I think I could ever teach even Engle'se or grammar - but I'm a big fan of communication ) & knowing there's more than a few other language fans here - I thought this chart might be of some small interest , I've really gotten some use out of it . It's like one of those surprise 'learning-tools' that you run across once in a blue-moon that makes unintelligible stuff suddenly make sense , Like "Hooked on Ebonics , I mean 'phonics' " :P (kidding) Like a small resetta-stone of sorts anyway .

But without ever taking any classes , where I grew up I learned a small bit of the Balto-Slavic/Germanic languages , & having become somewhat of a fan of the "dead" language of Rome , it's amazing how much you can pick up of later languages that actually prove 'Latin' really never has died at all - just like the "Empire" - it simply morphed into a few other things . & Suddenly root-words of the so-called 'romance-languages' ( tho I hate that term - they sound fairly 'barbaric' & UN-romantic to me <_< ) - anyhow , much of Spanish/Italian/French/Romanian etc. & then even a lot of the Norman-Franco influence on the Angle/Saxon/Germanic English language becomes even more clear . You find that it gets much easier to pick up words , then phrases , then you can passingly communicate to some degree with folks from the other side of the world ( or at least learn to ask "hey old babushka , can I have another bowl of Borscht " , " no , no more yak thank you " , " pass the rakij Ygor " , and " hurry , where's the bathroom ..." :lol: ) . & to think - you could have been burned or hanged a few hundred years back for learning language skills so quickly ! Hope someone gets some use out of it if ya never saw it before . - Anyhow , here................

(you'll prob. have to click to enlarge , I tried to shrink it more , but then it gets illegible )
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#33 Old Garfield

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 04:18 AM

I always considered the "Sons of Aryas" to refer to the Indo-Europeans. However, REH's view of ethnic history was not real history at all, but it was attached to romanticized ideals of history, so once you get outside of his Hyborian Age construct, lots of connections begin to fall apart.
"How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?"
-REH

#34 Kortoso

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 05:22 PM

I always considered the "Sons of Aryas" to refer to the Indo-Europeans. However, REH's view of ethnic history was not real history at all, but it was attached to romanticized ideals of history, so once you get outside of his Hyborian Age construct, lots of connections begin to fall apart.


Yeah, that's got my vote as well. He would have wanted to tie in his tales to known history, and render it in an saga-like manner.

But it would not be beyond Howard to wonder what mythic hero that the Indo-European Aryans were named after.



#35 Old Garfield

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 12:26 AM

I always considered the "Sons of Aryas" to refer to the Indo-Europeans. However, REH's view of ethnic history was not real history at all, but it was attached to romanticized ideals of history, so once you get outside of his Hyborian Age construct, lots of connections begin to fall apart.


Yeah, that's got my vote as well. He would have wanted to tie in his tales to known history, and render it in an saga-like manner.

But it would not be beyond Howard to wonder what mythic hero that the Indo-European Aryans were named after.



To really deal with Howard's view, you've also got to understand the state of anthropology, history, and ethnography at the time. And a lot of it was, well...very, very Germanocentric, to put it mildly. And in retrospect, a lot of the "wandering peoples" ethnohistory of the time has not held up well over the years to scrutiny and new archaeological evidence. I'm willing to bet that the Aryans Howard was writing about were not the dusky-skinned central Asian people, but the weird semireligious construct of the ethnohistorians at the time - basically proto-Germans.
"How can I wear the harness of toil
And sweat at the daily round,
While in my soul forever
The drums of Pictdom sound?"
-REH

#36 loticanor

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 08:44 AM

I hate to bring this fascinating discussion to a crashing end but the sons of "Areus"/Ares are clearly Romulus and Remus, the founders of the Roman Empire.

This places the story between 1600BC (the supposed sinking of Atlantis) and 700BC (the founding of Rome).

http://en.wikipedia....mulus_and_Remus

#37 deuce

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Posted 13 December 2009 - 10:04 AM

I hate to bring this fascinating discussion to a crashing end but the sons of "Areus"/Ares are clearly Romulus and Remus, the founders of the Roman Empire.

This places the story between 1600BC (the supposed sinking of Atlantis) and 700BC (the founding of Rome).

http://en.wikipedia....mulus_and_Remus



Hey loticanor! Welcome to the forum. :D Before you start mouthing off and putting all of us in our place, you might try reading a bit more Robert E. Howard. BTW, REH knew perfectly well who Romulus and Remus were (thanks for the link). He said they were sons of a prostitute (a mundane one, NOT Venus; no offense). You also might check out Howard's essay "The Hyborian Age". If you don't have time for that, at least closely read the preceding discussion which you so cavalierly dismissed.

You also might check out what REH said about the Romans here:

http://www.conan.com...topic=5569&st=0

Hope that helps. :)

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#38 timeless

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 03:47 AM

ALWAYS intrigued me, that line from REH.

Gotta back both Deuce and Old Garfield and especially Kortoso.

One thing Bob loved to do more than read and learn about history and pre-history was to PLAY with his version of it. Fertile ground for a more than fertile imagination (I imagine :P .)

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#39 Axerules

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Posted 14 December 2009 - 05:51 PM

Welcome to the forum! :)

I hate to bring this fascinating discussion to a crashing end but the sons of "Areus"/Ares are clearly Romulus and Remus, the founders of the Roman Empire.

This places the story between 1600BC (the supposed sinking of Atlantis) and 700BC (the founding of Rome).

http://en.wikipedia....mulus_and_Remus


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#40 theagenes

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 09:18 PM

I hate to bring this fascinating discussion to a crashing end but the sons of "Areus"/Ares are clearly Romulus and Remus, the founders of the Roman Empire.

This places the story between 1600BC (the supposed sinking of Atlantis) and 700BC (the founding of Rome).

http://en.wikipedia....mulus_and_Remus



Welcome to the boards. :)

I'm not sure if I should bother even responding, since this appears to be a drive-by post, but why not.

First of all Aryas=Areus=Ares makes no etymological sense in either Greek or Latin. If REH had intended to make a reference to Romulus and Remus he would have referred to them as the "Sons of Mars" not the "Sons of Ares." We tend to syncretize Greek and Roman deities today as though there is no difference between the two, but they are actually quite different gods from different cultures and with differents stories related to them. REH knew his classical mythological very well and would have understood this distinction. With the phrase "Sons of Ares" one would usually think of Phobos, Deimos, and Eros - not Romulus and Remus.

Additionally, while Sir Arthur Evans had once suggested in passing that the Minoan civilation on Crete might have been the inspiration for Atlantis, the idea that the sinking of Atlantis was related to the Thera eruption did not become popular at all until after Akrotiri was discovered in the 1960's, long after REH's time.

But really all of this is moot as REH's phase, when taken in context, clearly refers to rise of Indo-aryan culture and Indo-european speaking peoples or, to use the language of his day, the "Aryans." Whether or not this was simply a poetic way of referring to the rise of historical civilation or his inventing a legendary "founder" of the Aryan people to create a sense of mythological verisimilitude (like Danaus for the Danaans) is a matter for conjecture.

Edited by theagenes, 29 December 2009 - 09:22 PM.

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