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Sons of Aryas (REH's "Aryans")


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#41 nephron

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Posted 11 January 2010 - 08:17 AM

I think he was talking about the Indo-Europeans too.

In Howard's work & correspondences, it looks like he internalized a lot of the standard anthropological thinking of his day. Not necessarily the "cutting edge" stuff of the '30's, but the standard anthropological paradigm of the 19th (& early 20th century), like 19th century stage-model evolutionism & racial thinking, & referring to Indo-Europeans as "Aryans" fits right within that paradigm.

He was also writing a fantastic history, so I could see how he'd come up with a fictionally mythological person (or nation or whatever) named "Aryas" as the founder/original country/city-state/whatever for the Aryans.

#42 amster

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 04:23 AM

I hate to bring this fascinating discussion to a crashing end but the sons of "Areus"/Ares are clearly Romulus and Remus, the founders of the Roman Empire.

This places the story between 1600BC (the supposed sinking of Atlantis) and 700BC (the founding of Rome).

http://en.wikipedia....mulus_and_Remus


Wow! You really showed them! But I'm afraid that you left out an important point: It was Conan the Sumerian.
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#43 Taranaich

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Posted 12 January 2010 - 05:37 PM

Remember, it's pronounced "Coe-NAHN": he's not Irish. :rolleyes:

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#44 deuce

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 03:57 PM

Ollonois, Krommtaar and myself had this discussion over on another thread. It really needs to continue here. :)

then historical brythonic celts were from german or scandinavian ancestors? the correspondence between hyborian world and historical world are really a mess, but very interesting --- Ollonois



"Germanics" who (on the whole) adopted and modified the Cimmerian culture and language.
--- Deuce


Krommtaar --- It's really interesting to compare Howard's vision with reality, since some things are in fact all the way around, or switched: the Aesir (Gauls & Brythonics' ancestors according to Howard) arriving and adapting the Cimmerian's customs reflects the exact opposite of what apparently happened according to archaeology.

The celts were indoeuropeans but natural enemies of the germans, they had things in common but diverged for unclear reasons and kept a certain distance with the group that became germanic tribes.
These first celtic groups came along in Gaul and the British isles, encountering in scotland some picts, and on the western coast of Gaul some basques, aquitans and other autochtonous tribes .
These autochtones are the ones who adapted to the celtic rites and culture mostly, it can be seen by comparing with the preceding hallstatt & la t?ne cultures of a few centuries ago: the celtic culture didn't change that much since it's beginnings, which means that they (the celts) didn't incorporate much from these autochtonous people (whose culture is for the most lost then), aside from perhaps the megaliths , some of which were ALREADY there when the first celts came along in these countries more or less in the first millenium bc .

Strange huh. Anyways it always makes me laugh (comparing with reality) when I read that Gauls and Brythons were supposed according to Howard to be of Aesir descent. A view shared by many pseudohistorians in REH's time (and before) who believed that anglosaxon and germanic tribes in general preceeded everyone.
It works though in Howard's semi-fictive world, since he combines opposite views.

From what I've read there's nothing new there. The kings of France, proud of their germanic lineage, didn't loose one occasion in their -bought and made up- fake history books which they ordered to be written by some so called historians, to "commemorate" the fact that their supposedly "superior" ancestors conquered the land and united under Clovis. A racist view o course. The nobles were affiliated with "Frankish ancestors" and the plebs always with "gallic ancestors" how convenient eheh
Things changed : after the french revolution, during the 19th cent, celtism became extremely popular (as in the United Kingdom as well) to such a point that it became the new official version of "history" : everything was thought to be of gaulish origin, the Franks having a negative connotation since affiliated with monarchy and the church, neodruidism became popular as well imported from. A satyre of celtism, pseudohistory and many 19th century trends can be read in many chapters of Gustave Flaubert's "Bouvard and P?cuchet" ( published around 1880) .
I think it's an interesting novel for those who are into REH's alternative history "sources" , to get a feel of these funky times (late 19th and early 20th c. ) when such outrageous theories were elaborated : the two friends don't know which subject they'll master, so they "crashtest" all of them, believing everything they read and go even further.

Fortunately, Howard was no 'Bouvard et P?cuchet' AT ALL (since in the novel they don't succeed in ANY of their numerous projects) and constructed something artistic and solid from his readings however pseudohistorical these were, perhaps because he put his own feelings and views before any kind of historical explanation, that's how I see it. Whatever theory you think of or adapt, if you have talent and a vision to accomplish, a masterpiece will follow, right?


Robert E. Howard thought he had a perfectly good model for Germanics adopting Celtic/"Cimmerian" ways in the Belgae. The standard thought during the early 20th century was that the Belgae were full-blown Germanics OR that they were "Celticized" Germanics. He went with the latter theory.

Both theories were based almost soley upon the testimony of Gaius Julius Caesar. Presently, it looks more likely that Caesar was flat-out wrong. Every single cultural indicator we have regarding the Belgae (when identifiable) is Celtic. Their names, their language, their weapons, their art. There is simply nothing to indicate that the Belgae were somehow "Germanic", other than Caesar's word.

Howard's vision, as shown in the "Hyborian Age" essay, is of the Cimmerians, Aesir and Vanir settling down along the shores of the Caspian and intermingling to various degrees (with some "pure-blooded" tribes abstaining). This conglomeration of tribes became what was later called the "proto-Indo-Europeans", or, in the common parlance of the early 20th century, "Aryans" (REH's "Sons of Aryas"). That is, every Indo-European sub-group from the Gaels to the Gauls to the Slavs to the Persians to the Tokharians.

L. Sprague de Camp once crowed about "how wrong" REH was, envisioning light-haired, light-eyed "Aryans". Recent archaeological finds in the Uighur Republic ("Tarim Mummies") and new discoveries in genetics show that Howard was more right than wrong. Sorry, Spraguie.

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#45 ollonois

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 07:04 PM

let me an anecdote, in the sport center where I should to go there is an anglo-pakistani young man, people called it, more or less in a good way, the black man because of his dark skin but I said them than India and Pakistan were the origin of the indoeuropean race and of the white race so in a sense he is superior to we latins... all of it of course between friends and with a goood humour... is really so was India and Pakistan the origin of the indoeuropean race?
ehem... let me other anecdote, when Conan the barbabian was released in Spain they translated in the prologue sons of aryas, hijos de arias in spanish as suns of aries, soles de aries... :rolleyes: ...
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#46 Teutates

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 07:32 PM

let me an anecdote, in the sport center where I should to go there is an anglo-pakistani young man, people called it, more or less in a good way, the black man because of his dark skin but I said them than India and Pakistan were the origin of the indoeuropean race and of the white race so in a sense he is superior to we latins... all of it of course between friends and with a goood humour... is really so was India and Pakistan the origin of the indoeuropean race?
ehem... let me other anecdote, when Conan the barbabian was released in Spain they translated in the prologue sons of aryas, hijos de arias in spanish as suns of aries, soles de aries... :rolleyes: ...


Modern India and Pakistan has faced so many invasions and racial mixes that today's inhabitants are as much related to the first indoeuropean tribes (or indoaryans) than some modern modern europeans, plus they were invaded by moghols, arabs, iranians, etc. in the same manner that european
But the fact is that the darkest skinned indians descend mostly from the "dravidian people" (in fact of melanesian type) , which were the first inhabitants of southern india and the indian ocean isles (indonesia, new guinea, papuasia etc), which yielded the "lower" indian casts while the "white" brahman casts are traditionally seen by hindus as descending from the fabled aryan invaders described in the Vedic texts.
The merchant cast was said to be "yellow" and the warrior cast (second in rank after brahmani) "red" . But somewhere it must reflect a certain historical context concerining asian invaders/tradesmen and local red/coper skinned inhabitants. Still I find this cast thing going around very racist and useless.
But you're kind of right when you told your pals that this darkskinned dude may share some indoeuropean ancstry with the whitest dudes in your gym.

The spanish translation of Aryas is really funny though!

#47 Teutates

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Posted 20 October 2010 - 07:44 PM

Robert E. Howard thought he had a perfectly good model for Germanics adopting Celtic/"Cimmerian" ways in the Belgae. The standard thought during the early 20th century was that the Belgae were full-blown Germanics OR that they were "Celticized" Germanics. He went with the latter theory.

Both theories were based almost soley upon the testimony of Gaius Julius Caesar. Presently, it looks more likely that Caesar was flat-out wrong. Every single cultural indicator we have regarding the Belgae (when identifiable) is Celtic. Their names, their language, their weapons, their art. There is simply nothing to indicate that the Belgae were somehow "Germanic", other than Caesar's word.

Howard's vision, as shown in the "Hyborian Age" essay, is of the Cimmerians, Aesir and Vanir settling down along the shores of the Caspian and intermingling to various degrees (with some "pure-blooded" tribes abstaining). This conglomeration of tribes became what was later called the "proto-Indo-Europeans", or, in the common parlance of the early 20th century, "Aryans" (REH's "Sons of Aryas"). That is, every Indo-European sub-group from the Gaels to the Gauls to the Slavs to the Persians to the Tokharians.

L. Sprague de Camp once crowed about "how wrong" REH was, envisioning light-haired, light-eyed "Aryans". Recent archaeological finds in the Uighur Republic ("Tarim Mummies") and new discoveries in genetics show that Howard was more right than wrong. Sorry, Spraguie.


Sprague de Camp apparently never heard of the persians, armenians, people of the sea, basques and other darkskinned indoeuropean/pre-indoeuropean/aryan people. Plus, Howard's idea of a conglomerate of tribes standing for pre-celtic semi-nomadic people is the actual theory indeed and most realistic, even if he digressed romanticizing the whole thing with his anachronisms and esoteric elements.

Besides, this ridiculous view that the Gauls from Belgic Gaul in Caesar's time were "germanic" is coming back even today, sad..... but personally I think it's purely a racist issue with what's going on between the Wallons and Flemish in Belgium that brings back these dumb theories.
Belgic gauls were amongst the first to make arrangements with Rome and thus were simply favored in Caesar's writing, everyone knows that.

If we had to list all the inconsistencies encountered in roman and greek texts about the Celts, it would be without end! eheh

#48 deuce

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 02:34 PM

let me an anecdote, in the sport center where I should to go there is an anglo-pakistani young man, people called it, more or less in a good way, the black man because of his dark skin but I said them than India and Pakistan were the origin of the indoeuropean race and of the white race so in a sense he is superior to we latins... all of it of course between friends and with a goood humour... is really so was India and Pakistan the origin of the indoeuropean race?


No, going from what we know at the present time, the Indo-Aryans (as well as the Tokharians) went east while the ancestors of the Celts, Latins and Germanics went west. NO Indo-European ethnic group has precedence, IMO.


ehem... let me other anecdote, when Conan the barbabian was released in Spain they translated in the prologue sons of aryas, hijos de arias in spanish as suns of aries, soles de aries... :rolleyes: ...


THAT is just utter stupidity. It completely changes any probable intent by REH. He had little interest in the Greeks or astrology.

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#49 Kortoso

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 06:12 AM

Not stupid, just a bad translation.

#50 Taranaich

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 07:50 AM

Let's split the difference and call it a stupid translation.

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#51 deuce

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 07:56 AM

Not stupid, just a bad translation.


If the translator was worth a damn, they should've known that "Aries" is frikkin' "Aries" in English. Thus, "Aryas" must represent something else. Lazy or stupid or both. <_<

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#52 Afghan Barbarian

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Posted 20 November 2011 - 04:40 PM

Because REH used real ethnic peoples, with names slightly modified, I am still inclined to believe he meant the Aryans with the historic land of the actual king of Arya (aka Aryana); with Yama, and the rise and fall of his sons who split the Aryan kingdom. Their story captured in old Iranic folk talkes.

Edited by Afghan Barbarian, 20 November 2011 - 04:42 PM.


#53 deuce

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 06:48 AM

Because REH used real ethnic peoples, with names slightly modified, I am still inclined to believe he meant the Aryans with the historic land of the actual king of Arya (aka Aryana); with Yama, and the rise and fall of his sons who split the Aryan kingdom. Their story captured in old Iranic folk talkes.


Good to see you back, AfBar! B) Without evidence to the contrary, I'd have to say that your theory is plausible. However, Robert E. Howard mentioned "the sons of Aryan" in two tales as well as naming a proto-Celt in the British Isles "Aryara". In all three cases, it would seem that REH was referring to the "original Aryans". By that I mean the tribes that Howard felt comprised the proto-Indo-Europeans. What seems to be misleading you is that philologists took "Aryan" from the Sanskrit Vedic texts and used it as a term for all proto-Indo-Europeans. Their reasons for doing so were actually pretty good. It's unfortunate that the use of the term "Aryan" by the Nazis has sullied and distorted the meaning somewhat. The Nazis tainted the formerly benignant swastika as well.

Robert E. Howard saw the majority of "original Aryans/proto-Indo-Europeans" as being light-eyed and light-haired. His early Persians in "The Children of Asshur" are blonde. The "Tarim Mummies" discovered in the Uighur Republic would seem to corroborate REH's conjecture.

Nowhere in his many letters does Howard refer to the kingdom of Arya/Aryan, nor does he mention the legends of Yama and his sons. AFAIK, they aren't even mentioned in any of the volumes in REH's personal library. Besides, the kingdom and legends you refer to all originated thousands of years after the proto-Indo-European tribes split off and went their separate ways. So, Yama and his kingdom make a very poor model for "the sons of Aryas" whose progeny settled not just central/south Asia, but Europe as well.

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#54 deuce

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Posted 21 November 2011 - 08:25 AM

is really so was India and Pakistan the origin of the indoeuropean race?


By general concensus, it would appear that the proto-Indo-Europeans/"Aryans" originated somewhere between the Black Sea and the Aral Sea. There are fringe theorists from India who try to posit India as the cradle of the "PIE" tribes, but they have very little to back up their wild claims.

Robert E. Howard was fully aware of India's "Aryan" heritage. In one letter, he told HPL that he'd met a high-caste North Indian when he visited San Antonio. REH felt that said individual looked at least as "Aryan" (in the general sense that Howard subscribed to) as REH himself.

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#55 deuce

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 09:44 AM

This guy seems to position himself as a bit of an "alt-historian", but this entire section looks pretty solid to me:


http://xenohistorian...#Indo-Europeans

Good stuff on the Indo-Europeans (up to 1500AD) and then other good stuff on the Celts, etc... farther down. B)

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#56 Kortoso

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 07:10 PM

Personally, I wouldn't mix "Proto-Indo-European" and "Aryan" into the same bowl and mix them that casually.
The "Indo-Aryan" migration into modern Pakistan and India is generally figured to have taken place during the Middle to Late Bronze Age, (ca. 1700 to 1300 BC).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration
The "Proto-Indo-European" language and culture began diverging around 3700 BC, and branched out in several directions over the centuries. The Indo-Aryans were just one of the ensuing outgrowths.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language

#57 Ironhand

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 07:03 AM

This is good stuff, thanks. It answers a number of unvoiced questions.
"Did you deem yourself strong, because you were able to twist the heads off civilized folk, poor weaklings with muscles like rotten string? Hell! Break the neck of a wild Cimmerian bull before you call yourself strong. I did that, before I was a full-grown man...!" - Conan, in "Shadows in Zamboula", by Robert E. Howard
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#58 constantine

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 02:02 AM

I would suggest that one should not rush to accept xenohistorian's info as totally accurate. A number of chapters have some validity, but other stuff are greatly disputed. A few dates are also not correct, according,at least, to modern scholarship. Wikipedia has some respectable articles, though.

#59 deuce

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 05:11 AM

Personally, I wouldn't mix "Proto-Indo-European" and "Aryan" into the same bowl and mix them that casually.
The "Indo-Aryan" migration into modern Pakistan and India is generally figured to have taken place during the Middle to Late Bronze Age, (ca. 1700 to 1300 BC).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration
The "Proto-Indo-European" language and culture began diverging around 3700 BC, and branched out in several directions over the centuries. The Indo-Aryans were just one of the ensuing outgrowths.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language


Well, that's one of the things that struck me. Kimball using the two terms in a similar manner to REH.

Honestly, how is using "Aryan" to denote "Indo-European" THAT different from using "Germanic" for all the "Germanics" or "Celtic" for all the "Celts"?

There are several clues pointing to SOME version of "Aryan" being common to various PIE tribes.

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#60 deuce

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Posted 25 January 2012 - 05:37 AM

I would suggest that one should not rush to accept xenohistorian's info as totally accurate. A number of chapters have some validity, but other stuff are greatly disputed. A few dates are also not correct, according,at least, to modern scholarship. Wikipedia has some respectable articles, though.


I agree that Wiki CAN (at times) host some excellent entries.

Honestly, I only read the I-E chapter from end to end (at 2AM in the morning). I skimmed the rest. Still, I thought it refreshing to read an article which didn't question if there ever WERE "Indo-Europeans" (I've read such) or if the Iron Age inhabitants of Britain spoke some form of Celtic as opposed to "Iron Age".

Are there better online sources? Yeah. Better print sources? Definitely. I still thought Kimball did a good enough job to warrant linkage.

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